Author Topic: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB  (Read 17835 times)

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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2010, 01:56:05 PM »
So 3DS cartridges can store 8GB.  Well, that's cool and all but how much would such a cartridge cost?  Even if this is a possibility it doesn't mean that using such a large cartridge would be affordable.  With cartridge systems in the past cart sizes could vary significantly on the same system.  Usually larger carts became more common throughout the system's life.  That's because the bigger carts were more expensive to produce.  We even saw situations where bigger games, like some RPGs on the SNES, had a higher price then a typical game, thus passing the cost of the bigger cartridge to the consumer.

Companies want to maximize profits.  If they can cut this or that corner and save a few bucks they will.  With optical discs you can't really do that.  A DVD is a DVD.  They don't really make smaller DVDs that cost less to produce.  There are dual-layer DVDs but if your game is smaller than the standard DVD (or CD back in the PS1 days), tough luck.  You can't get corners.  You've got 4.7 GB whether or not you need it.  There is a cap on how much you can cut costs on the medium.

Carts don't have that limitation.  Suddenly you can cut manufacturing costs by being cheap with the medium.  You could quite easily have less than 4.7 GB.  So why not compress that FMV further or, hell, get rid of it outright to decrease the size of the cartridge and save money?  For years you would see games use a password because the publisher didn't want to splurge on a save battery for the cart.  The model gives third parties excuses.  They could fit a 4 GB game on a 3DS cart but maybe it costs a little more than a DVD.  Or maybe they've just decided that they only want to spend X amount of money for 3DS games (because they can) so they'll never exceed 1GB.  They've based their business model on a certain price range of cart, which may even be cheaper than a DVD, and so even though this DVD game CAN be ported to the 3DS, they don't want to spend the extra money, so it either doesn't happen or they compromise the port.

I don't think for a portable this is so important but for a console it is.  They make the Wii 2 a cartridge console and third parties will just dick them around like always.  It wouldn't even just be a problem of making sure the cost of the carts was comparible to discs.  Providing the ability to offer cheaper carts with lower capacity is something that will undoubtably be abused.  There is a lot of benefits in being similar to the competition.  Same minimum, same maximum, same price structure - no one can **** you.  It just would not be worth the effort.

The big advantage to carts is the lack of load times.  Load times matter to Nintendo a lot, but we know that they just are not a big deal to everyone else.  Most first party Cube and Wii games have such smooth and quick load times that they more or less don't have them at all.  Yet on both systems encountering third party games with long load times is common.  We know the hardware is capable of having short load times but third parties don't make use of it.  That's because they know they don't have to.  They know the consumer will put up with it.  They know their game will still be playable, or even be considered a classic.  They would have to push it really hard for people to not buy a game because of load times.  The consumer doesn't really care and the developers don't really care.  So the whole advantage is completely moot.  So if the cost is just a little bit higher, kiss third parties goodbye.  Saving money is worth more than no load times.  If carts allow for cost-cutting methods that discs don't, then they will be abused at the expense of the gamers.

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Offline Kytim89

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2010, 02:23:56 PM »
What third party developers are attracted to is unlimited expansion and if Nintendo taps into that sentiment with a storage medium that can accomodate games of all sizes.
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Offline Kytim89

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2010, 02:34:11 PM »
Nope, the game is so big that it actually comes on 3 Xbox 360 discs (and the PS3 version is over 30GB), there is no way the game could be released on 3DS unless they want to do like 4 cartridges.

There is always the 32 GB SD card, but that would be very expensive.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 03:17:26 PM »
Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.
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Offline Shaymin

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2010, 03:38:10 PM »
Nope, the game is so big that it actually comes on 3 Xbox 360 discs (and the PS3 version is over 30GB), there is no way the game could be released on 3DS unless they want to do like 4 cartridges.

Isn't most of that hi-res graphics (I'd say 720p but someone would inevitably prove me wrong) and 5.1 music, though? If the graphics and sound were down-res'd, that could probably get to 8GB. Especially without the requirements for redundancy that are seen on the disc to reduce load times.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 03:53:43 PM »
Maybe, but I have my doubts. I personally wouldn't play it anyways since I don't think I would enjoy the game (based on reviews I have read). It would probably take way too much time and effort to make it happen anyways.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2010, 03:55:36 PM »
Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.

Just because 8 GB is the limit now doesn't mean it always will be. Like I pointed out before, the initial limit for DS cards was 128 MB, but now we have games at double and even quadruple that.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2010, 04:37:57 PM »
With optical discs you can't really do that.  A DVD is a DVD.  They don't really make smaller DVDs that cost less to produce.  There are dual-layer DVDs but if your game is smaller than the standard DVD (or CD back in the PS1 days), tough luck.  You can't get corners.  You've got 4.7 GB whether or not you need it.  There is a cap on how much you can cut costs on the medium.

There are Mini-dvds which only hold about 1.5gb or something, and those are basically what the GC disc were. But even though they are smaller in both size and capacity they ironically cost more than the full sized ones (at least to the end consumer they do). But why the hell does it matter if the full capacity of a DVD is used or not? I mean, DVDs are basically just a cheap piece of plastic fused with a extremely thin layer of aluminum foil. That's really they are. That's why companies like AOL could notoriously put 20mb worth of their crapware on a 700mb disc and then mail millions of them to everyone and their grandmother. The other 680mb on the disc was completely wasted, but at 10cents a disc did it even matter?

And I think that's how it is with that new Super Mario All Stars game for the Wii. There was probably no need for more than 20mb of space for those old roms to be placed on the DVD. So you have a 4.7gb disc with 99.9% of the space going unused.

Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.

Just because 8 GB is the limit now doesn't mean it always will be. Like I pointed out before, the initial limit for DS cards was 128 MB, but now we have games at double and even quadruple that.

I agree. But furthermore, it seems likely to me that the 3DS will have at least one USB port, and with that there is really no limit to storage. Is it out of the question that some games might come on what is essentially a USB flash drive that would plug into the 3DS?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 04:45:15 PM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2010, 05:15:44 PM »
Quote
Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.

Just because 8 GB is the limit now doesn't mean it always will be. Like I pointed out before, the initial limit for DS cards was 128 MB, but now we have games at double and even quadruple that.

I agree. But furthermore, it seems likely to me that the 3DS will have at least one USB port, and with that there is really no limit to storage. Is it out of the question that some games might come on what is essentially a USB flash drive that would plug into the 3DS?

Doing things like that would be pointless, since such drives don't offer any more storage than could be done on a 3DS card and would be more expensive and less convenient.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2010, 05:24:34 PM »
Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.

Just because 8 GB is the limit now doesn't mean it always will be. Like I pointed out before, the initial limit for DS cards was 128 MB, but now we have games at double and even quadruple that.

The max size of DS games was not known (and is still not known), it's just that most DS games were smaller until prices came down (there wasn't a limit). This is explicitly saying that the max size is 8GB. So as of right now, it would not be smart to assume we will ever see 3DS games bigger than that.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2010, 05:25:19 PM »
Quote
But why the hell does it matter if the full capacity of a DVD is used or not? I mean, DVDs are basically just a cheap piece of plastic fused with a extremely thin layer of aluminum foil. That's really they are. That's why companies like AOL could notoriously put 20mb worth of their crapware on a 700mb disc and then mail millions of them to everyone and their grandmother. The other 680mb on the disc was completely wasted, but at 10cents a disc did it even matter?

It doesn't matter if the full capacity of a DVD is used and that is part of the advantage.  The minimum size (and mini-DVDs don't count since making a Wii, PS3 or X360 game on one is probably not supported) is quite large to begin with.  Most games won't exceed it but if you need to, there are options.  But for all intents and purposes it is pretty much one-size-fits-all with a fixed cost.  Cartridges however offer more price options so you can save money by going with a small cart.  But let's say we've got a multiplatform game that is 2.5 GB on the other consoles.  On the Wii 2 you can go with a 3 GB cart but the 2 GB cart is cheaper to produce.  If we removed the voice acting or took out half the soundtrack or compressed the FMV or whatever we could to cut those extra 500 MB we could use the cheaper cart and save money!
 
There is no such option with a DVD.  The minimum is so large and so cheap there is no cost-benefit in cutting corners.  And if you use a medium that everyone else uses and is familiar with then you get treated way better on multi-platform releases.
 
I personally prefer cartridges but would only support Nintendo using them on a console if everyone else was doing the same thing.  Multiplatform releases are the norm these days.  Having a port-friendly console is a good thing, so much so that one should specifically design their system as such.  Let the unique creative ideas go into the EXTRA features that the competition doesn't have.  So you have 99% the same thing... but MORE.  You want it so that you can easily handle the competitor's games but their hardware cannot handle your's.  Until recently the PS360 couldn't do Wii Sports.  That's good.  Oh but the Wii basically couldn't do any of the PS360 games either.  That sucked.  That's no advantage, it makes it a choice for the consumer.
 
Carts vs. discs will get Nintendo nowhere.  Don't make it an "either or" situation.  Now if the Wii 2 supported both carts and discs then we've got something.  The Wii 2 can then do what the competition does plus more.  Don't make people choose, make it so that it is OBVIOUS that your console is BETTER.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2010, 05:26:05 PM »
Nope, the game is so big that it actually comes on 3 Xbox 360 discs (and the PS3 version is over 30GB), there is no way the game could be released on 3DS unless they want to do like 4 cartridges.

There is always the 32 GB SD card, but that would be very expensive.

A Proprietary Flash based 3DS cartridge and an SD card are 2 different things.

Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.

Your obviously responding to the the assumption that the 3DS card and an SD card are the same, but if the 3DS takes SDHC cards (which we know it will) then it should accept 32GB cards. 64GB cards are a a little different though I think.

Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.

Just because 8 GB is the limit now doesn't mean it always will be. Like I pointed out before, the initial limit for DS cards was 128 MB, but now we have games at double and even quadruple that.

That is also correct since 8GB is currently what they are capable of fabricating, but doesn't mean they couldn't meet a higher need should one arise many years down the road (not cost effective at this point).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 05:39:05 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2010, 05:44:12 PM »
Except the 3DS won't accept cards that big anyways.

Just because 8 GB is the limit now doesn't mean it always will be. Like I pointed out before, the initial limit for DS cards was 128 MB, but now we have games at double and even quadruple that.

The max size of DS games was not known (and is still not known), it's just that most DS games were smaller until prices came down (there wasn't a limit). This is explicitly saying that the max size is 8GB. So as of right now, it would not be smart to assume we will ever see 3DS games bigger than that.

There isn't a limit of how big a game can be on a hardware level; the limits are imposed by the storage medium, and solid state storage is continually getting cheaper at higher capacity. Nintendo specifically said early on with the DS that cards would go up to 1 gigabit, 128 megabytes, but flash memory got cheaper as time went on and they were able to make bigger cards. I doubt games on the 3DS will ever need more than 8 GB, but there would be nothing stopping them from expanding it if they wanted to.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2010, 06:49:24 PM »
(and mini-DVDs don't count since making a Wii, PS3 or X360 game on one is probably not supported)

We know the Wii is capable of handling GC discs, so it shouldn't be a problem if Nintendo or some other company wanted to release a Wii game on that. There's really not much reason for them to do that though, because it would most likely cost more to do it. The only thing I can think of is if they did make Wii games on GC media it would be compact enough to fit inside a DS case. That's something that might be worth pursuing for games that were intended to be played on both systems or whatever.

As for the PS3 and 360, I have no idea but if they are designed to be fully compliant with the DVD/Blu-ray standard then they should be able to support mini-dvd/mini-bluray because that's part of the respective standards. Of course that's movies, but if the drive can physically read it for movies I would think it should be able to do so for games as well (but there might be some issues with read speeds or whatever). But here too there really isn't much point in it, unless it were for promotional purposes or to reduce the size of cases for the sake of shelf space or whatever. I would imagine Mini-bluray would be capable of handling most PS3 games, since the size of blu-ray is overkill for the most part.

Carts vs. discs will get Nintendo nowhere.  Don't make it an "either or" situation.  Now if the Wii 2 supported both carts and discs then we've got something.  The Wii 2 can then do what the competition does plus more.  Don't make people choose, make it so that it is OBVIOUS that your console is BETTER.

Offtopic, but I think that was something Sega dabbled with a bit with the Saturn. There was a slot on the top near the back which was like the genesis or snes cart slot, but as far as I know this was never actually used for games (probably just for a modem or some other obscure peripherals). Then there was the experimental Neptune console which was supposed to have been the Genesis, 32x, and Sega CD all bundled together into one unified and enhanced product, but that never got off the ground.

But a console supporting two proprietary formats might be a bad idea. For one thing, its going to add to the manufacturing cost of the system. The other issue is the two formats are going to be competing with each other over space on store shelves and so forth. You're right that there are some benefits to it as well, but its open to debate whether the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2010, 07:05:26 PM »
There was a slot on the top near the back which was like the genesis or snes cart slot, but as far as I know this was never actually used for games (probably just for a modem or some other obscure peripherals).

That slot was used for portable storage cards that could save stuff like game saves and high scores. It could also be used for the Sega NetLink (a 28.8 Kb modem), and it could be used to expand RAM for games (for example, X-Men vs. Street Fighter used a 4MB cart).

The Neptune was only going to be Genesis and 32X, not CD.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2010, 07:20:39 PM »
Quote
But a console supporting two proprietary formats might be a bad idea. For one thing, its going to add to the manufacturing cost of the system. The other issue is the two formats are going to be competing with each other over space on store shelves and so forth. You're right that there are some benefits to it as well, but its open to debate whether the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages.

Well I don't think it's like an awesome idea or anything.  But if you're going to do carts, I think that might be the safer approach.  Then devs can pick what is important to them.  I don't think they would fight for shelf space as they would all be Wii 2 games and I'm figuring a Wii 2 game is either a cart or a disc.  There would be no point in being available in both.  But it would increase the cost of the system and I think the benefits are practically non-existent.  What would happen is that Nintendo would be all cart-crazy and probably everyone else would just use discs.  This is my "save Nintendo from themselves" solution where Nintendo's self-serving goof-ass method and the normal conventional method are both available and Nintendo can be crazy without screwing everything up.

Offline Kytim89

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2010, 07:22:31 PM »
I figure that the 3DS is going to break the Nintendo console life cycle trend of five years and have a ten year life cycle of its own. If so, I could eventually see the 3DS reaching the and eventually succeeding the 8 GB storage limit as its games evolve to look ever more like PS3 and 360 games.
 
 
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2010, 07:29:58 PM »
Even if they looked like 360 games they most likely wouldn't need more than 8 GB. Very few 360 games take up more than that, and 3DS games would be smaller even at the same visual quality because the smaller size and lower resolution of it's screens wouldn't need as much detail in textures to achieve that.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2010, 09:49:23 PM »
In terms of discs vs. carts/cards, this is a much different scenario than it was 14 years ago when Nintendo got rofl-stomped by Sony for sticking with cartridges. Storage capacity between the two is more or less even and the prices discrepancy is far narrower. At this point, I still think cards are a better storage solution. DLC could theorhetically be downloaded directly to a game card and transferable to internal memory. That's something you absolutely cannot do with discs (or at least the read-only discs found on consoles) and certainly there are advantages to that (i.e. take your DLC enhanced game to your cheap friend's house). Of course, to prevent rampant piracy, you'd likely have to tie downloads to an account, but that's pretty much something Nintendo should have had in place for years.

Anyway, as for 3DS, I presume most games will be under 4GB. If a game requires more, it's probably loaded with CGI/animated cutscenes.
I figure that the 3DS is going to break the Nintendo console life cycle trend of five years and have a ten year life cycle of its own.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2010, 09:58:01 PM »
Anyway, as for 3DS, I presume most games will be under 4GB. If a game requires more, it's probably loaded with CGI/animated cutscenes.

Or made by Hideo Kojima. I remember him actually complaining about the 50GB size of Blu-ray Disc not being enough (I think it was because he didn't bother compressing any of the audio or video in the game, and uncompressed video takes up a lot of space).
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Offline Adrock

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2010, 10:53:04 PM »
I remember that too and I'm pretty sure it was the audio as well. There was a lot of it in MGS4. Still, the noise about a whole Blu-Ray not being enough was clearly BS considering he followed Guns of the Patriots with Peace Walker on a paltry 1.8GB UMD. How many people really had all of the equipment need to really take advantage of the fancy-pants audio in MGS4? The game played just as well without it. I guess it's nice to have the option but that's just it, it's optional. I'm curious to see if the 360 version of Metal Gear Rising comes out on 37 DVDs...

Offline Kytim89

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2010, 11:54:52 PM »
I could see Final Fantasy 15 coming out on the 3DS with a 8 to 16 GB card.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2010, 12:09:50 AM »
Quote
But a console supporting two proprietary formats might be a bad idea. For one thing, its going to add to the manufacturing cost of the system. The other issue is the two formats are going to be competing with each other over space on store shelves and so forth. You're right that there are some benefits to it as well, but its open to debate whether the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages.

Well I don't think it's like an awesome idea or anything.  But if you're going to do carts, I think that might be the safer approach.  Then devs can pick what is important to them.  I don't think they would fight for shelf space as they would all be Wii 2 games and I'm figuring a Wii 2 game is either a cart or a disc.  There would be no point in being available in both.  But it would increase the cost of the system and I think the benefits are practically non-existent.  What would happen is that Nintendo would be all cart-crazy and probably everyone else would just use discs.  This is my "save Nintendo from themselves" solution where Nintendo's self-serving goof-ass method and the normal conventional method are both available and Nintendo can be crazy without screwing everything up.

One of the nice advantages of carts that I remember from the SNES era was that it allowed Nintendo to put chips within the carts that would actually beef up the specs of the SNES so that in its final years even though the games were $70 or so, the graphics were amazing and easily competitive with that of the 32-bit systems. Look at the wonderful graphics of Super Mario RPG, DKC, Killer Instinct, etc. That was very impressive stuff made possible because of chips that were bundled in with the carts themselves. Star Fox was another example, which had some other special chip in it that made it possible to be the 3D polygon game that it was. With the SNES carts Nintendo seemed to be able to do what the 32x did to the Genesis, except in Nintendo's case the 32X was actually built into the carts themselves meaning no peripheral was necessary, because each game has its own peripheral integrated into it.

Obviously something like that couldn't be possible with optical media.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2010, 12:39:58 AM »
I don't think that's possible with DS-style cards either.
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Re: 3DS Cartridges Could Store Up to 8GB
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2010, 12:50:21 AM »
I could see Final Fantasy 15 coming out on the 3DS with a 8 to 16 GB card.

I wouldn't hide my breath if I were you. The mainline Final Fantasy games go to the system Square Enix thinks would be best to show off with graphics and audio, which means a handheld will have almost no shot at getting a current FF game (ports of older games are different, maybe the 3DS could get ports of Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII). Not to mention the very slim chance the 3DS could even support cards larger than 8GB.
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