Topic: Donkey Kong Country Returns Impressions

[Retro Deckades]

It's Donkey Kong Country. I shouldn't have to get used to the controls.

That's what the tutorial stage is for. 

Exactly.

I can't believe how lazy people have gotten when it comes to new control methods in established franchises or genres. It's especially prevalent in these throwback games. They just provide cannon fodder for those who don't want to take the time to learn something new. If these new controls actually become a hindrance to the way you play the game (for example, if the response is poor or inconsistent) then sure, they ought to be called out. However, I am reserving judgement. I found the controls in Nintendo's previous efforts to be responsive and easy to master. If those games are any precedent, there's a good chance that by the second or third world of DKCR, almost no thought will be given to having to shake the remote to roll.

[broodwars]

I can't believe how lazy people have gotten when it comes to new control methods in established franchises or genres. It's especially prevalent in these throwback games. They just provide cannon fodder for those who don't want to take the time to learn something new. If these new controls actually become a hindrance to the way you play the game (for example, if the response is poor or inconsistent) then sure, they ought to be called out. However, I am reserving judgement. I found the controls in Nintendo's previous efforts to be responsive and easy to master. If those games are any precedent, there's a good chance that by the second or third world of DKCR, almost no thought will be given to having to shake the remote to roll.

And I can't believe how complacent and quick to agree people are with anything Nintendo does just because it is Nintendo that did it.  I wouldn't mind the motion control in DKCR if (a) I had any reason based on previous Nintendo games that the feature would work correctly every time I needed to use it OR (b) Nintendo provided a traditional control scheme alternative for those that want the precision of buttons over the inaccurate flailing of motion controls.
 
You say Nintendo should be called out if the motion controls are unresponsive, and I definitely found the motion control in both Mario Galaxy games unresponsive.  So yeah, I'm calling them out on it.  This is exactly what is wrong about motion controls this generation: they just replace buttons and don't add anything to the game.  When I'm trying to do a rolling jump in DKC, my primary concern should be "am I timing this right and am I executing the move properly" NOT "will the motion controls work this time, or am I about to die due to a mechanical problem beyond my control?"
 
I have a great deal of faith in Retro to make an awesome game, because that's what they do.  I have absolutely NO faith in the motion control prowess of the Wii Remote without MotionPlus, because time after time experience has shown me the thing is technologically faulty.  I have no problem with trying new control schemes if they prove to be better or more immersive.  This is just motion control for motion control's sake, which doesn't make it better than Traditional Controls.  It's not like this is the first time we've seen Nintendo this generation use an inferior control scheme just for the sake of it, or even the first time this year (Metroid Other M).  And as I've said, I wouldn't have a problem with this if I was just given the option of using traditional controls so I can leave the Wiimote flailing for those who want it.

[Retro Deckades]

And I can't believe how complacent and quick to agree people are with anything Nintendo does just because it is Nintendo that did it.

I don't recall saying that I loved Wii Music.

[Peachylala]

You say Nintendo should be called out if the motion controls are unresponsive, and I definitely found the motion control in both Mario Galaxy games unresponsive.

Funny thing, I thought they worked just fine. Maybe your Wiimote was bugging out?

(b) Nintendo provided a traditional control scheme alternative for those that want the precision of buttons over the inaccurate flailing of motion controls.

...Flailing? I remember Shake It needing a quick flick and that was it. You don't need to flail, at all.

[NWR_insanolord]

I never had any issues with the waggle in Mario Galaxy or NSMBWii. I'd probably prefer it use a button, and in a game that's based so much on a Super Nintendo game the lack of a Classic Controller option is baffling, but it doesn't make me any less interested in the game.

[broodwars]

You say Nintendo should be called out if the motion controls are unresponsive, and I definitely found the motion control in both Mario Galaxy games unresponsive.

Funny thing, I thought they worked just fine. Maybe your Wiimote was bugging out?

While that's certainly possible (I'm still using my original Wiimote that I got with the system back in April 2007), I don't think that's the reason because I've never had issues with motion control on the MotionPlus titles I've played.

[Mop it up]

I'd prefer buttons but it isn't game-breaking. The only time I've ever had an issue with shaking is when using the Wii Remote-only style in NSMBWii, it's just awkward to hold it in two hands and press buttons when shaking. It's sensitive enough that even little flicks register; in fact, in the Super Mario Galaxy games, I would sometimes use the spin accidentally, especially because the Nunchuk works. Since there's a Nunchuk option in this game then it won't be an issue for me.

[Caterkiller]

Luigi Dude is the only one making sense! The flicks work just fine and I actually enjoy them in some cases over a button press. The only time I ever had trouble was during Galaxy 2's boss battle that used the fire flower in the sand, besides that the controles worked 100% of the time for me. Ya'll don't know how to play right.

[Stratos]

It depends on the game for me. I've not had much of a problem in the Galaxies but half of my friends struggle with the NSMB Wii controls. One of my friends has huge hands so he can't control right with the tiny D-Pad. Plus I have two freaking CCs. An original and a Pro. what did I buy them for? Freaking include the option! You did in Mario Kart and Smash Brothers. Why not here? Plus the WiiMote is just smaller than I would like the controller to be. A little bit bigger would feel more comfortable in my hands.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Before jumping the gun and deciding you dislike the controls without having tried them, try keeping an open mind. After an acclamation period of a few levels, the minute gestures in these games feel like second nature to me. I sometimes wonder what it is some of you are doing for it to be unresponsive. Interference from something nearby, perhaps? Or maybe a revision of your technique is in order...

[Peachylala]

It depends on the game for me. I've not had much of a problem in the Galaxies but half of my friends struggle with the NSMB Wii controls. One of my friends has huge hands so he can't control right with the tiny D-Pad.

Strangely enough, the WiiMote+Nunchuck option for NSMBWii is my favorite way to play that game. I also like the WiiMote only option too, but since my hands are not that big...

Plus I have two freaking CCs. An original and a Pro. what did I buy them for? Freaking include the option! You did in Mario Kart and Smash Brothers. Why not here? Plus the WiiMote is just smaller than I would like the controller to be. A little bit bigger would feel more comfortable in my hands.

This is valid, but Smash Bros and Mario Kart are two totally different games compared to DKC. One's a race, the other is a 2-D mascot fight with some platforming mixed in.

Ok, maybe Smash Bros can be somewhat comparable to DKC, but... yeah.

[Retro Deckades]

I thought I was in the minority on this. Maybe I am, but it is just a vocal minority?

I do like the classic controller, but I find it hard to be surprised when Nintendo doesn't implement it for current games since it has always seemed that it is primarily for use with the virtual console (although some newer games like Monster Hunter 3 and Goldeneye 007 have been challenging that). It's always nice to have the option, but it's entirely possible to enjoy the game with these different control methods as long as they work, and in Nintendo's other 2-D platformers, like Wario Land: Shake It and NSMB Wii, they did.

[Mop it up]

I don't think anyone's saying they won't buy and/or enjoy the game because of shake controls, people just have their preferences, which don't have much relation to whether something "works" or not. The Wii has several different controllers, and it's extremely easy to support them all in a game, so why not offer them all as an option?*

*Yes Ian Sane I know the answer.

[Stratos]

What Mop it up said. I am still sold on this game. But it just grinds my gears when I can't play a retro revival title in the same way (or similar way) to the original games it is reviving.

I'm a pro waggle gamer overall but there are some that I just want to play normally. I prefer Wavebird for Brawl, Mote+Chuck for Mario Kart and WiiMote solo for NSMBW. But I really want to use the CC for DKCR. The WiiMote is OK for NES revival titles like Mario Brothers but DKCR is an SNES revival and the CC is the equivalent to the SNES controller.

It makes me wish there was either a clip on the CC so you could support waggle with it or even a CC with waggle in it so that I could just have the shape and button layout of the CC.

[Caterkiller]

For people that had trouble in the Galaxy titles, did you just not wait until the motion timer reset itself? You can't just shake and shake, you shake once Mario spins, give it a second for that little star man to reset, hear the chime and then shake again. I went into the game several hours before I realized that. Wouldn't be surprised if some people went through the entire game like that.

[Peachylala]

For people that had trouble in the Galaxy titles, did you just not wait until the motion timer reset itself? You can't just shake and shake, you shake once Mario spins, give it a second for that little star man to reset, hear the chime and then shake again. I went into the game several hours before I realized that. Wouldn't be surprised if some people went through the entire game like that.

The opening tutorial mentioned that element quite clearly, if I remember correctly.

[Caterkiller]

I'm one of those people who skip all the text and dialogue in a tutorial and see if I can just figure it out, cause I can just look at my surroundings and usually assume correctly what is asked of me. That would explain why I didn't understand the shake timer sooner.

[Peachylala]

I'm one of those people who skip all the text and dialogue in a tutorial and see if I can just figure it out, cause I can just look at my surroundings and usually assume correctly what is asked of me. That would explain why I didn't understand the shake timer sooner.

And it shouldn't be held against you, but then again, the opening was basically a tiny playground for us to play around in before the real adventure started.

[Ian Sane]

For 20 years I never had a problem where I would accidently trigger some action because I was moving the controller (I actually don't do it much myself but my brother does all the time in NSMB).  For 20 years I never had a problem where I have to perform this move right fucking now or I die and it just doesn't work (for games made by a quality dev like Nintendo anyway).  I rarely had to fight with the controls on first party NES, SNES, N64 or Gamecube games but I find I have to do it with pretty much EVERY SINGLE WII GAME NINTENDO MAKES.  And I'm not such a fool that I can't tell that it's just a button press mapped to a gesture.  It took me a bit of time to adjust to the analog stick on the N64 but it was immediately obvious that it wasn't just the d-pad with the run button being automatically pressed.  The games were making real use of it.  The advantages to using it were immediately obvious.  There was a small learning curve but it was an easy sell.  I don't complain about real remote usage like in Wii Sports.  I don't think much of Wii Sports but it is for different reasons than the controls.  It uses motion control in a real way.  It proves the concept.  Waggle does not.

I know this will be a problem with this game because it was a problem with the one before it and the one before that and the one before that.  I encounter this all the time.  Every Wii game I play I feel like "this is pretty good but, damn it, I wish this feature was a button.  If they just let me use the classic controller this would play like a dream."  Prior to this gen, I associated Nintendo with great responsive controls.  I felt I could always trust them on that.  Now it's a complete flip-flop.  Nintendo no longer designs their controls to be responsive and practical.  Their focus is on gimmick controls that appeal to rubes.  Controls are now a marketing tool.  They don't design them to suit the game, they design them to appeal to someone too dumb, ignorant or close-minded to try the game out if it had normal controls.

And, again, just give me the damn option!  I don't blame Retro because I figure the lack of options is coming down from NCL.  We can all bitch about the barrel roll controlling like **** at E3 but if NCL says that Retro has to put it in and that they cannot provide the option not to then that is what is going to happen.  If it was just this game I would blame Retro, but it's EVERY Nintendo game regardless of the dev team so it's likely NCL enforcing it.

[Peachylala]

Does every one of your posts have to be paragraphs of whining Ian?

[Stratos]

It's a legitimate complaint.

I complained about the roll controls and lack of CC support in my 'Intend to Buy' survey on the Club Nintendo site.

[Mop it up]

If you don't want to know what Ian Sane has to say, then:
1. Skip over his posts
2. Add him to your "Ignore" list

[broodwars]

Does every one of your posts have to be paragraphs of whining Ian?

Considering your avatar, there's a certain irony to this statement.   

As for Ian, I could do without the repetition of the same argument every time Nintendo does...well...anything, but it is a legitimate point here.  There's nothing but sheer arrogance and disinterest that keeps Nintendo from just having more traditional controls as an option in their games.  If you like waggling in your games, fine.  Just don't force me to have to deal with them when I prefer standard controls when they are the most sensible control scheme.  If Nintendo just supported both types of control in their games, we could all be happy being able to play our games the way WE want to.

Why is it that Nintendo seems to be the only company these days determined to force their customers to play their games one way and one way only, even (and seemingly "especially") when there might be alternative control schemes that suit the game better for different people?  Aside from the obvious diversion of resources, what does it hurt to allow your customers to play your games the way they enjoy them the most?  For a company that preaches "expanding the audience" and opening up avenues of play to gamers with a wide variety of skill and interests, they sure are stubborn to actually allow more-traditional gamers that courtesy.

[Peachylala]

In the original DKC on the SNES, rolling was an optional move. Could it be used to get stuff? Yes it could, but it still wasn't exactly needed to win the game. DKC2 was the same. DKC3 changed it up with Kiddy's water splash move... which was only useful for a couple of levels.

Now, waggle rolling could end up being the same as it was in the SNES games: optional, but there if you need it. But if it DOES hamper the game design, then yes, it's a compliant and don't see why Nintendo couldn't add Classic Pro support.

But here's another problem: Not everyone is made of money. I don't know how much of the Wii audience has a CC/Pro controler, but it doesn't come with the Wii set itself. Price itself might be a issue, but yeah.

We can't say go out and say arrogance. Economics may have played an issue. And waggle can be done right if the player him/herself doesn't shake the WiiMote forcefully. All it needs is a quick flick.

[King of Twitch]

No, roll jumping is a crucial mechanic and part of every balanced breakfast.

I am also confused at how they could flick the remote and think hey, you know what that motion reminds me of? DOING A CARTWHEEL WITH MY WHOLE BODY

Mark me down as unimpressed.