Topic: Pokemon Black and White

[Pale]

I am really concerned that the fact that these aren't 3DS games confirms that the 3DS is going to be a marginal technical upgrade and not a major one.

Also, If anyone thinks these will be coming out in NA this holiday, you are most likely mistaken.  Pokemon games always have significant localization delays.  Our best hope is March, 2011 and even that is probably way too soon.

[Shaymin]

The advertisement on http://www.pokemon.co.jp/ shows DS only.

Number of DS in the wild: >100mil
Number of 3DS in the wild: 0

Any questions?

Though they've got a history of releasing these games one system back - Gold and Silver were GB games despite the GBC being out, Crystal was released after the GBA launched, and Emerald came out after the DS launch.

At the very least, they'll probably use the 4 gigabit card so they can squeeze in some exclusive content for 3DS use.

[Pale]

You kind of proved my poing Shaymin.  Gold and Silver were GB games because GBC was only a minor upgrade so devs didn't have a reason to release on it.  I fear the same for 3DS now.

Also, installed base is totally irrelevant when talking about Pokemon games.

Number of 3DS that would be in the wild if Pokemon launched on it? ~10 million.

[BlackNMild2k1]

INstall base is not totally irrelevant. It's about maximizing your audience and handholding them on over to the next hardware.

The newest Pokemon releases on the most older hardware since it has a larger audience, then then they can release the 3rd game for the newer hardware to push up adoption rate. rinse wash repeat. I figure Pkmn B&W will be no different.

B&W release on DS and Grey/Mullato or whatever they call the 3rd game will release on 3DS several months later. Pokemon fanatics will have to upgrade to new hardware just to play their game and I don't think it's the 1st time they may have done something like that.

[Stratos]

Gold and Silver were GBC games.

[TJ Spyke]

Exactly. Though they were backwards compatible with Game Boy, they were Game Boy Color games.

The first 3DS Pokemon games won't come out anytime soon anyways. The Pokemon games are never early releases (main Pokemon games, not spin-offs like Pokemon Dash). Not counting the first games, Gold and Silver came out 13 months after the Game Boy Color launched. Ruby and Sapphire came out 20 months after the Game Boy Advance launched. Diamond and Pearl came out 22 months after the Nintendo DS launched. I wouldn't expect the first main line Pokemon games on 3DS to come out until Fall 2012 at the earliest.

[Pale]

INstall base is not totally irrelevant. It's about maximizing your audience and handholding them on over to the next hardware.

The newest Pokemon releases on the most older hardware since it has a larger audience, then then they can release the 3rd game for the newer hardware to push up adoption rate. rinse wash repeat. I figure Pkmn B&W will be no different.

B&W release on DS and Grey/Mullato or whatever they call the 3rd game will release on 3DS several months later. Pokemon fanatics will have to upgrade to new hardware just to play their game and I don't think it's the 1st time they may have done something like that.

You inferring that the "third" game will release on 3DS leads me to think you are just assuming the 3DS will only be marginally better technically, which is my whole fear.  I agree, if that's the case, it does make total sense to go ahead and put the games out on DS, and that's why this is depressing.

Also, I don't follow your 'handholding to the next console' logic. Can't Heart Gold and Soul Silver do that? You have to draw the line somewhere.

[Ian Sane]

Number of DS in the wild: >100mil
Number of 3DS in the wild: 0

If you use this logic then no new hardware is ever going to take off.  If you want the new hardware to succeed you have to kill off its predecessor.  Why should I or anyone else buy a 3DS if a regular DS is all I need to play the best portable games being made?  Make this a 3DS-exclusive launch title and everyone upgrades because they have to.
 
You would think this is 1990 again with the SNES and NES.  This is the model everyone has followed for decades now.  We know how it works.  New hardware comes out, new games come out for it, old hardware fades away.  All customers and all retailers KNOW this.  The 100 million DS owners are now nothing more than potential 3DS owners.  The only way to keep their business is to convince them to upgrade.  If they don't feel the need to upgrade then you failed, you lost them.

[TJ Spyke]

The DS sold millions while great GBA games came out, several good NES games came out after the SNES launched. You don't need to kill a hugely successful system to get people to buy it's successor. You just have to give people good games to make them want to upgrade. The stupid thing to do would be to make these Pokemon games 3DS-exclusive because that would basically ignore the 100+ million DS systems out there. Release it as a DS game and anyone who owns a DS, DS Lite, DSi, DSi XL, or 3DS can play it. Make it a 3DS game and it will be limited to the tiny 3DS launch market. I also don't see Nintendo delaying the game a few months to make it a 3DS game, especially since it would be a 3DS game in name-only (as Nintendo would likely have to delay the game at least a year to add 3DS features to it, so making it a 3DS launch game means it would just be a DS game in a 3DS cartridge).

[Pale]

Again, it's Pokemon.  Pokemon sells systems. Systems don't sell Pokemon.  Installed bases are greatly irrelevant.

[Ian Sane]

The stupid thing to do would be to make these Pokemon games 3DS-exclusive because that would basically ignore the 100+ million DS systems out there. Release it as a DS game and anyone who owns a DS, DS Lite, DSi, DSi XL, or 3DS can play it. Make it a 3DS game and it will be limited to the tiny 3DS launch market.

Was it stupid for Nintendo to make Super Mario World a SNES exclusive or Super Mario 64 an N64 exclusive?  You need to get that old userbase to buy the new system so you need a system seller and Pokemon is PERFECT.  Maybe they've got something else that will do the trick so it won't matter.  But I don't think Nintendo will do themselves any favours if the best handheld game of the year is on the DS instead of the 3DS.  That's Sony releasing God of War II on the PS2 while the PS3 struggles without a clear system seller.
 
The DS launched with an N64 port and a bunch of half-baked JUNK while the GBA continued to have good games.  The DS succeeded but I don't feel that that poor launch was responsible for that.  I see it more as the DS succeeding despite that.
 
Hell I didn't buy a Wii at launch either because Twilight Princess was on the Gamecube and that was the must-have game for me.  Why would I pay more money to buy a new system for a game that I can play on a system I already own?  Again, was this an important part of the Wii's success or was it more of a dodged bullet?  The Gamecube was not that popular and the Wii also had Wii Sports and also targetted a market that would have been largely unaware that Zelda was also going to be on the Gamecube a few weeks after the Wii launch.  Brilliant strategy or huge brainfart followed by a huge fluke?
 
I'm assuming that Nintendo has something to show off the 3DS' capabilities.  You're not going impress anyone with 3D capabilities unless you have some launch game that pops out of the screen at people.  So if Nintendo's got some big killer app in the works that, plus DS Pokemon, would be a pretty good combo.  It still seems like playing with fire though.  Why create a situation where people are happy to stick with their old system?  Now the 3DS exclusives have all the more pressure on them to deliver because they're competing with Pokemon Black/White, available to all existing DS owners.

[Spinnzilla]

Maybe we'll get another Twilight Princess situation. lawl.

[TJ Spyke]

Ian, handhelds and consoles are different. One thing is that the console market is a lot more competitive than handhelds. People are gonna buy the 3DS anyways, so why lose millions of dollars in profit by releasing gimped Pokemon games on 3DS? Real 3DS Pokemon games will get released around a year and a half after the launch like Nintendo normally does with handheld. The games are suppose to come out this year, so they would just be DS games in a 3DS cartridge. Nintendo would make far less money by releasing them as a pair of 3DS games because most people who want a 3DS at launch will get one anyways and Nintendo would lose out on millions of dollars in sales. Releasing them as DS games like they currently plan to lets anyone with a DS or 3DS buy the games. Maybe putting in bonus features that work when playing the game on a 3DS would give the same effect of getting people to buy a 3DS (especially kids who would want to get the most out of the games).

[Ian Sane]

People are gonna buy the 3DS anyways, so why lose millions of dollars in profit by releasing gimped Pokemon games on 3DS?

You're probably right on this and, hey, I don't have to buy a 3DS so hooray for me.  But I think that's a dangerous attitude to have.  The assumption that people will just "buy it anyway" is why Nintendo was in trouble with consoles for so long.  Nintendo also can appear to get away with jerking people around with a scam like the DSi.  But why do that?  If the 3DS doesn't have a good launch lineup the early adopters are getting jerked around and you're going to piss some of them off.  Maybe it's just a little but WHY do that?  Why take your customers for granted?
 
The PSP launched with MORE games than the DS had at that point despite the DS having a headstart.  The DS succeeded and kicked the PSP's ass.  But was this all part of a great plan or was the DS' then weak lineup a big ****-up that Nintendo got lucky with?  If the PSP had a more reasonable price and battery life that could have been a big problem for Nintendo.  Their system wasn't cutting it and they got past that largely because of goofs by the competition.  That's not being in control of your destiny.  What if Sony fucking nails it with the PSP2?  What if MS releases a portable or Apple?  Should not Nintendo make sure to have a really solid 3DS launch to combat this potential threat?  Nintendo may have a very secure top spot in the portable market but we're actually at a point now where competition does exist.  Assuming that people will just "buy it anyway" is relying on your competition to screw up.  That's not being in control.  I say make each system launch count so that people feel they NEED to own your new system whether there is tight competition or not.

[TJ Spyke]

I am sure Nintendo will have good 3DS launch games, I am just saying that taking a pair of DS games and calling them 3DS games (which is what would happen if they tried to take Black/White and make them launch games or even near launch) will not do any good. If the 3DS really is a big visual upgrade, then this would be like if Nintendo had a GameCube launch game that looked like a N64 game.

[that Baby guy]

I remember back when the Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages and Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons came out.

I remember a big to-do about some GBA only shops, that could only be entered into by someone playing the game on the GBA.

I remember the game came out right before the GBA came out.

Nintendo puts system-seller style games on their handhelds even AFTER the next generation comes out.  They do it because the new handhelds have a tradition now of being backwards compatible.  Want to buy a system to get Pokemon?  Buy the 3DS, unlock a small special feature, and pick up Pokemon at the same time, and you'll have a future-compatible system.  It worked well enough for the GBC -> GBA.  Big GBA games also came out after the DS did, too, and that worked out.  Why wouldn't the same thing happen this time?

[NWR_insanolord]

I am sure Nintendo will have good 3DS launch games, I am just saying that taking a pair of DS games and calling them 3DS games (which is what would happen if they tried to take Black/White and make them launch games or even near launch) will not do any good. If the 3DS really is a big visual upgrade, then this would be like if Nintendo had a GameCube launch game that looked like a N64 game.

Am I missing something? Are there screenshots of these games somewhere? Because if there aren't, how do you know they haven't been planning for a 3DS game from the beginning and haven't designed it accordingly?

[BlackNMild2k1]

INstall base is not totally irrelevant. It's about maximizing your audience and handholding them on over to the next hardware.

The newest Pokemon releases on the most older hardware since it has a larger audience, then then they can release the 3rd game for the newer hardware to push up adoption rate. rinse wash repeat. I figure Pkmn B&W will be no different.

B&W release on DS and Grey/Mullato or whatever they call the 3rd game will release on 3DS several months later. Pokemon fanatics will have to upgrade to new hardware just to play their game and I don't think it's the 1st time they may have done something like that.

You inferring that the "third" game will release on 3DS leads me to think you are just assuming the 3DS will only be marginally better technically, which is my whole fear.  I agree, if that's the case, it does make total sense to go ahead and put the games out on DS, and that's why this is depressing.

Also, I don't follow your 'handholding to the next console' logic. Can't Heart Gold and Soul Silver do that? You have to draw the line somewhere.

You assume wrong. I think the 3DS will be GC level in graphical power and that the 3rd Game in the B&W series will help hesitant followers upgrade to the next console sooner to complete their Pokemon collection. That is what I meant by handholding, sort of a carrot and stick approach.

They will release the 1st 2 games as DS games w/ 3DS enhancements, such as 3D mode and maybe some other special extras. That alone will get quite a few to upgrade to the 3DS. Then game #3 comes out as a 3DS exclusive forcing the rest to upgrade to complete the collection therefore acting as the carrot. Seems very simple to me.

[BeautifulShy]

First pictures of Pokemon Black and White are up on Serebii. If someone could post them that would be great.

[Pale]

Yeah.... I don't know what to say really, other than those screen shots have me extremely disappointed.

[BlackNMild2k1]

First pictures of Pokemon Black and White are up on Serebii. If someone could post them that would be great.

You can post them yourself you know

Those screens are disappointing BTW. I wasn't expecting much, and they haven't officially revealed the 3DS yet so I know there wouldn't be any screens for an enhanced version of some sort..... but I've never played a Pokemon and those screens aren't exactly drawing me in.

[rbtr]

Well, that looks like pokemon.  So that's something.  Since it's clear they aren't changing the graphics, or the overworld, the only thing that could really revolutionize the games is a change in the battle system.  Something like the big physical/special split, hopefully more though.  Or I suppose the progression of the story.  I'd love to see a change in the way HMs are handled (why should I have to carry around up to two useless pokemon, just to get around the world?).  I'd love if the battles weren't random, but you actually saw the little guys running around in the field.  I'd mostly like to see actual attack animations, which would be a pretty big deal at this point.


BlackNMild...you've never played a pokemon game?  Were you in that awkward generation when it came out, where you were too old?  Or just never interested?  You should go get the new ones, they are easily the best ones.  Despite the shortcomings, they are really great RPGs, with an interesting, strategy heavy, battle system.  They are very goal oriented, so even when you're training grinding up your monsters, its not boring.  And my favorite thing is the amount of game in them.  There is SO MUCH content it gets overwhelming.  I've put around 65 hours into SoulSilver, and I'm maybe only 2/3s through it, and that's only 2/3s through the story.  Post story, if you wanted to "catch 'em all", well there's 493, with my 60 hours I've seen about 100, and caught about 90.  There's the battle frontier, you can rematch all 16 gym leaders and do small quests to be able to, and not to mention if you want to play competitively you'll pretty much sink literally 100s of hours in.

[Caterkiller]

Interesting perspectives, but its not enough so far to make me go wow! Even D/P's generation had me like "this again?". It is nice to see a side view in the stores, and there actually being something in the back ground during battles. But there really does need to be some kind of animation when the pokemon are battling, I can only deal with these frozen sprites for another decade before i'm done.

But at the same time watching that girl walk through the city is interesting giving depth to it all.

[BlackNMild2k1]

BlackNMild...you've never played a pokemon game?  Were you in that awkward generation when it came out, where you were too old?  Or just never interested?  You should go get the new ones, they are easily the best ones.  Despite the shortcomings, they are really great RPGs, with an interesting, strategy heavy, battle system.  They are very goal oriented, so even when you're training grinding up your monsters, its not boring.  And my favorite thing is the amount of game in them.  There is SO MUCH content it gets overwhelming.  I've put around 65 hours into SoulSilver, and I'm maybe only 2/3s through it, and that's only 2/3s through the story.  Post story, if you wanted to "catch 'em all", well there's 493, with my 60 hours I've seen about 100, and caught about 90.  There's the battle frontier, you can rematch all 16 gym leaders and do small quests to be able to, and not to mention if you want to play competitively you'll pretty much sink literally 100s of hours in.

Too old.... never interested.... waiting for the Pokemon MMO.

Choose one, choose them all, doesn't matter. But if the last on happened I would definitely check it out.

[Stratos]

Here are the pics. Yeah, they don't look very different.