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Offline Crimm

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Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« on: December 05, 2009, 01:18:33 PM »
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=20488

  In the upcoming episode of Radio Free Nintendo,  I talk at some length about the death of my Xbox 360.  In a way, it seems comical that I should talk about the expiration of a console that is less than 14 months old on the same episode that Chris Kohler speaks of his functioning Vectrex.  In a way, I should have known.    


To be clear, when we spoke with Mr. Kohler, the Xbox still ran like a champ.  In fact, after we finished our "Special Edition" Monday recording I proceeded to play it.  It was Tuesday that things began to turn sideways.    


I was playing The Last Remnant, somewhere around hour five-hundred thirty-three of that game, when I noticed some strange graphical glitches.  Much of the action was covered in small black squares.  Graphical glitches being nothing new for this title, I assumed Square Enix's struggles with Unreal Engine 3 had found a new way to manifest itself.    


Of course, it hadn't.  I saved, having just claimed a new remnant (The Dead-Heart), I had already saved.  I just turned the system off and started it back on.  Everything seemed okay, so I continued to my target, a confrontation with forces of "The Conquer."    


The graphics began to struggle again, so I turned it off, after getting a taste for the joy I was about to experience.  It would have to hold me over until I got home from work the next day.    


Of course, I spent at least a small amount of time that day thinking about how "awesome this will be."    


I came home.  Turned on the console.  E74.    


  It's a strange feeling.  When I bought my 360 I knew all about the hardware failures, yet I never felt that there was any risk it could happen to me.  It left me feeling powerless.    


I went through the stages of grief.    


1. On - Off - On - Off.  Certainly, this thing would work long enough that I could complete this battle.    


2. I grumbled and groaned that Microsoft cannot create a consistently reliable piece of hardware.  I wanted all these years to get a dependable console.  "They must be some kind of incompetents!"    


3. "Come on, you can run!  I know you can!  Just let me play the rest of the game, and I'll send you off for some much-needed R&R!"    


4. I began to think there was no way I was going to ever complete this damn game.  All that time lost.  Wasted.  I was beside myself.    


5. I went and dug up some packing material, a cardboard box from 1999 for an industrial Panasonic VCR.  As to why I had such a box I have no answer.    


Of course, I screwed up the packing job, I neglected to put my address and the repair number on the exterior of the box, as Microsoft's handy packing chart extols you to do.  They have the serial number and my address on the repair, if they can't connect the dots then there really is no helping them.    


It landed in the mail Friday.  UPS Stores are predictably a bit chaotic at this time of year, but it wasn't particularly harrowing.    


If you've bared with me through this narrative, thank you.  I'm sure it's even more boring then when you listen to me tell these stories on RFN (if you don't listen, please do!).    


Really, the story isn't the important bits here.  I did some math as to how "deep" I am into the 360, from a monetary standpoint.  It's about $470.00 including the console.  Once again, not really the point.    


The point is a bit more technical.  The 360's failure is a direct result of the power the system wields.  I'll spare you the physics, but as a microprocessor becomes more complicated, more powerful, and more sophisticated it takes more electricity to run.  That creates more heat.    


Heat is bad for electronics.    


In the case of my poor 360, it was lethal.    


Having worked myself through school doing various technical support jobs, I've seen more than a few laptops cook themselves.  That was something it was always unpleasant to tell a client.    


Of course, as technology advances, a processor of the same power becomes more efficient.  It runs cooler.  Computers don't die.    


In the future, consoles are going to become more powerful.  At the moment, it seems almost a fools errand to try to put more power into home consoles.  Games look stunning, and every year games that look even more stunning are released.  However, it's going to happen.    


Progress.    


I'd never had a console fail before.  Nintendo makes fairly robust hardware, and I have always been primarily a Nintendo owner.  Don't be surprised if system failures are part of the console future.  The more you pack in the box, the greater the risk.    


I do hope that all future consoles look at the example of the Xbox 360.  Robustness is an underrated element of console design.    


Let's not kid ourselves, even after the life-cycle of a console you still expect it to work.  What good is your collection of games if you have no machine to play them on?    


Let's just say that I expect to see a hole in my entertainment center again, sometime in the future.    


Just to be clear, I'm not writing this as a dig at the Xbox 360.  It is a good console with a solid library.  It just is fragile.

James Jones
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Offline BwrJim!

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 12:37:01 AM »
AHh, i too was impervious to such things as system failures.  I knew about them, but I baby my equipment.  Heck my Turbo Duo is still working..  Last year, this time I got a game called Gears of War 2.   Now I couldn't play it for some reason or another and it wasnt until my birthday on January 4th did I finally get to play.   Popped it in.   Made it to about 2 levels in, then the game froze.    Not a problem A simple reboot, games freeze all the time.   SO I started the 2nd level over and at the same spot where some big bug creature thing comes out at the convoy from a hole and it froze again.   Darn it, must be a bad copy.. oh well one more time..

almost to the hole in the ground, starts to lock..  dink dink... dink.. three rings of red light...
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 12:51:58 AM »
Technically it's not the heat killing the system, it's the breaking of the lead-free solder that kills the system. The system does get pretty hot, but not nearly hot enough to actually cause any damage from the heat (aside from rare cases where the temperature sensor has been known to break, or the fans die). The motherboard expands when the system is hot (though not too hot by any means), and the piss-poor manner in which the system is held to the metal chassis causes the surrounding area to stay pretty much locked down, not allowing the whole board to expand, then when the system cools down, the solder joints (or at least one of them) breaks, and you either get the 3 red lights, with typically error 0102, 0103, 0020, or you get E74. At least it's under warranty, though. Hopefully you get a Jasper (or at least Opus) system back, they're much sturdier.
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Offline MegaByte

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 01:02:02 AM »
Yeah, it's a little silly to just blame this on physics.  Computers can get much hotter and more complex and they don't have these failure rates.  It's poor engineering design and/or poor manufacturing.  That goes for the laptops too.  Certainly, these types of problems wouldn't happen without machines using that much power, but it's not a direct causation (like say, metal whiskers)... it's actually a pretty stupid problem compared to the complexity and physics of the system.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 01:05:04 AM »
This is why the ARM processors are the way of the future.

Offline Morari

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 01:28:51 AM »
This is why I own three Dreamcasts. Ironically enough, I've never actually had any issues with any of them.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 02:27:33 AM »
Bro-in-law is on his third Xbox.  He bought one 2006, one mid 2008, and one last month.  Hopefully it lasts longer, and he learns how to handle warranty stuffs.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 02:42:32 AM »
The same thing happened to my brother. He was so sad because he had just gotten Mass Effect. Then when he finally got it back... his television gave out! Also due to too much heat being generated...

It's amazing how the Nintendo 64 could survive without cooling fans. That thing gets HOT.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 03:31:30 AM »
Chips won't overheat (cause data errors) until above 70°C I think, the temperature for actual damage is higher and even an overheating PC won't usually end up damaged, just produce errors and hang. To get damage you need to have a serious cooling failure (everything clogged with dust or cooler failing to work). The 360 is just a case of rushed design and overpushing just to get a graphical advance when the tech advancement wasn't big enough yet. Also note that the Wii was built to use all those tech advances to run cooler and lower power.

Offline MegaByte

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 04:19:51 AM »
Yeah, it depends on the chip.  My laptop isn't even set to turn off until the CPU hits 100°C.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 04:22:13 AM »
The heat is still the root of the issue.  Poor management of heat causes the failure. 

Heat, of course, is not the only reason consoles of the future will fail.  They will fail because they're more complicated.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 05:02:16 AM »
My friend knows a guy who made bank fixing half of those soldering errors. Since it was a simple soldering issue he would undercut Microsoft's repair charges and word got around he was the go-to guy for repairs.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 06:36:04 AM »
The heat is still the root of the issue.  Poor management of heat causes the failure. 

Heat, of course, is not the only reason consoles of the future will fail.  They will fail because they're more complicated.

But computers don't fail like that even when they're made of cutting edge components. This is a serious engineering failure, not just the result of technology getting better.

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 11:40:33 AM »
Exactly.  It's Microsoft's garbage design of the 360's motherboard that causes the GPU to cook itself.  This doesn't have anything to do with the technology getting better, aside from the fact that the level of heat management in the system needs to be ratcheted up accordingly.

Microsoft didn't do that, so there you go.
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Offline kraken613

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 11:53:01 AM »
It all had to due with Microsoft at its core is a software company not a hardware company. There are much more powerful devices that don't have issues. Like Lindy said it all has to due with Microsoft's shitty hardware design.
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Offline MegaByte

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 12:22:12 PM »
The fact that Microsoft is primarily a software company is irrelevant.  The specific problem is simple in comparison to the complexity of the system.  The fact that Microsoft wants to keep their costs low is likely the big problem, but it backfired.
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2009, 02:14:05 PM »
How feasible would it be for the next consoles to have a replaceable lint filter? Might get annoying having to change it, but it would be worth it.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2009, 03:00:21 PM »
The one thing that will make future consoles a bit more reliable is their likely switch to solid-state memory.  No more failing hard drives.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2009, 05:02:23 PM »
And hopefully a switch back to cartridges as well. They've always had more benefits than discs, the only reason for the switch was prices but those are dropping all the time so hopefully it will reach a point where it isn't a factor.

Offline D_Average

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2009, 08:23:58 PM »
If you buy a 360 console at somewhere like Best Buy, do they offer the 3 year warranty for it?  And if so, does it cover the red ring and E74?
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Offline MegaByte

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 09:22:52 PM »
And hopefully a switch back to cartridges as well. They've always had more benefits than discs, the only reason for the switch was prices but those are dropping all the time so hopefully it will reach a point where it isn't a factor.
Yeah, no.  There will be downloads, and if they do decide to distribute through silicon, it will probably be through SD card.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 12:34:50 AM »
That's a pretty scary future. Nintendo has expressed distaste for downloads so hopefully they choose cartridges.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2009, 01:35:04 AM »
Nintendo has also showed distaste for disc based media too and look where that has gotten us...

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2009, 03:28:28 AM »
Most of that was due to piracy and I'd think it would be easier to control that with physical media than download-only.

Offline Stratos

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Re: Funeral Proceedings for a Console
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2009, 03:36:53 AM »
Nintendo has also showed distaste for disc based media too and look where that has gotten us...

A disk based system with almost no load times as opposed to the crappy loading screen wait of the PS1?
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