Topic: Marvelous Loses Money on Wii Projects

[NWR_pap64]

Three out of their four recent Wii titles didn't make their money back.
 http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=20371

 In a candid manner, Marvelous Entertainment stated in a financial presentation that they lost money on three out of four Wii games they published in 2009. The four titles in question were Muramasa: The Demon Blade, Arc Rise Fantasia, Little King's Story, and Valhalla Knights: Eldar Saga.  The profitable title wasn't specified.    

In Japan, Muramasa managed to sell 47,000 copies, while Arc Rise Fantasia sold 45,000 copies. Little King's Story sold 26,000 copies in Japan and 37,000 in North America, with its best sales performance occurring in Europe where it sold 67,000 copies. Valhalla Knights: Eldar Saga has only sold 16,000 copies since its September release in North America.  2007 release Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility was a surprisingly large seller on Wii, with 57,000 copies sold for the year across all regions.      

Marvelous noted that their four PSP releases made money thanks to their low cost of development (however, two of these titles were visual novels), with their best-selling title for the year being the 70,000-copy-selling PSP release Half-Minute Hero.  In July, the company stated that they may port Wii titles to the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, a plan that has resulted in the recent announcement of a Marvelous-published remake of No More Heroes being ported to both of those consoles.

[Chozo Ghost]

This is terrible news. I am playing Little King's story  and I love it. What the hell is wrong with Wii owners that they aren't buying 3rd party offerings? I can understand when Wii owners reject crap, but Marvelous games are not crap. It just doesn't make any sense.

[BwrJim!]

its the economy.  plain and simple.

[ShyGuy]

How much did LKS sell for? $40? so if they sold 130k world wide, the made over five million gross.

Ignition must have picked up NA publishing rights for Muramasa pretty cheap.

Like I said before, Marvelous will soon go out of business or be bought out.

[Peachylala]

How much did LKS sell for? $40? so if they sold 130k world wide, the made over five million gross.

Depends on how much Yen they spent on development. Cing, which devleoped the game, has a good relationship with Nintendo, and their games sell quite well on Nintendo systems. They are not in trouble.

Like I said before, Marvelous will soon go out of business or be bought out.

If they think their ports to PS360 will sell better, this will happen sooner or later.

This is terrible news. I am playing Little King's story  and I love it. What the hell is wrong with Wii owners that they aren't buying 3rd party offerings? I can understand when Wii owners reject crap, but Marvelous games are not crap. It just doesn't make any sense.

This is the fault of third parties.

Third parties have been treating the Wii like dirt, minus a couple of them, and this will piss of the Nintendo fan. Capcom learned this lesson the hard way in the GCN era. Everyone else is starting to learn it too. Boom Blox and DeBlob didn't bullshit their way around anything, and they sold well.

So in other words, piss us off, we don't buy your games. Palin and simple. (I am not this way, however. Others... I can't speak for)

[NWR_DrewMG]

Gee, with that attitude I can't see why developers wouldn't want to come develop for our fanbase.

[Peachylala]

It's a horrible element that I saw fester during the N64 days. That, and Nintendo's 'hardcore' is slowly becoming more annoying the Final Fantasy's entire fanbase.

Can't do much about it.

[ThePerm]

The typical Nintendo fan really doesn't like it when 3rd parties complain about their lack of game sales. Out of the list of games that they developed only one sounded worth while to play.

Can you imagine in music if there was more then one format and the musical artist was bitching about how their songs didn't sell? Good things sell themselves. They have nothing to complain about. The Wii has a 56.69 million user base at 48.6% market share. If their products aren't going to sell on there, they aren't going to sell on another format either.

Every generation there is an acclaim or a midway who does this, they usually make too much product with not enough focus.

[BlackNMild2k1]

This is terrible news. I am playing Little King's story  and I love it. What the hell is wrong with Wii owners that they aren't buying 3rd party offerings? I can understand when Wii owners reject crap, but Marvelous games are not crap. It just doesn't make any sense.

This is the fault of third parties.

Third parties have been treating the Wii like dirt, minus a couple of them, and this will piss of the Nintendo fan. Capcom learned this lesson the hard way in the GCN era. Everyone else is starting to learn it too. Boom Blox and DeBlob didn't bullshit their way around anything, and they sold well.

So in other words, piss us off, we don't buy your games. Palin and simple. (I am not this way, however. Others... I can't speak for)

You also forgot that they also didn't or couldn't afford to advertise heavily.
Nintendo is trying to rectify this problem, but for some it may be too late.

[that Baby guy]

How much did LKS sell for? $40? so if they sold 130k world wide, the made over five million gross.

Ignition must have picked up NA publishing rights for Muramasa pretty cheap.

Like I said before, Marvelous will soon go out of business or be bought out.

This news story is a little strange to me, for what ShyGuy notes.  The games Marvelous developed aren't exactly high-budget titles, and don't seem like they'd take very long to create.  If they're costing more than a few million dollars to make, then something is a little fishy about their pay schemes, publication costs, or work processes.  The numbers these titles are putting up don't seem all that bad, and the man-power it seems would be required seemingly should be justified.

So what's the real problem here?  I don't believe Marvelous is being candid at all, except about sales volume, which to my eyes, seems satisfactory.

Of course I'm not an expert, but aren't these numbers close to what we saw with No More Heroes initial numbers, which had a much higher production cost and marketing budget?  The game had legs, longer legs than these might have, but it's cost decreased quickly and dramatically, too, to balance out.  In the end, VGChartz says it sold about .45 million since launch, so I suppose that's more, but like I said, the price was reduced quickly, and it had a good-sized marketing budget.

This is weird news, really.

[Luigi Dude]

This is terrible news. I am playing Little King's story  and I love it. What the hell is wrong with Wii owners that they aren't buying 3rd party offerings? I can understand when Wii owners reject crap, but Marvelous games are not crap. It just doesn't make any sense.

It's a niche game with no appeal, that's why.  The same with all of Marvelous and other third party games that have failed on the Wii.

Even though Little King Story is a great game and all, who exactly is the audience?  The average person once they see the artstyle to the game and the name, is going to think it's something for young kids and ignore it.  Not to mention any young kid who see it will just ignore it since they have no idea what it's about.

In the end the only people who knew anything about it was the internet gaming crowd who only makes up an extremly small percentage of the total gaming population.

[KDR_11k]

This is terrible news. I am playing Little King's story  and I love it. What the hell is wrong with Wii owners that they aren't buying 3rd party offerings? I can understand when Wii owners reject crap, but Marvelous games are not crap. It just doesn't make any sense.

Valhalla Knights is supposedly crap. I didn't get LKS because I got Pikmin 2 around the same time and didn't want two games that are that similar at once. No interest in Muramasa because I didn't like Odin Sphere and I didn't really have an opportunity to buy ARF.

[broodwars]

It's hard to know what to make of this.  Marvelous makes spectacularly niche games so it's not surprising they haven't sold well.  Some companies like Atlus can get away with doing that, but Atlus has been very strong for years now in generating interest and excitement in their fanbase.  I look at a Marvelous game, and it just screams "budget title, get it later for cheaper" because Marvelous hasn't done a damn thing to convince me that the game's worth buying now.  Maybe Marvelous might want to look at adopting Atlus' business strategy of only producing a certain number of their games to increase demand by decreasing supply.

Still, you'd think given the low budget nature of these titles that Marvelous would be doing better than it is.  I kind of wonder if they're just blowing smoke to try to scare people into buying their games for fear of losing support on the console.

[Stratos]

I'll bet Muramasa was the one they didn't lose money on. That one seems to have the best sales out of all of them.

I thought Wii dev costs were cheap as well. How different is deving for Wii versus PSP? Shouldn't be much different cost-wise because everyone else seems to think they are sister systems and port games from one to the other all the time.

I didn't even realize Valhalla Knights was out until I saw it for sale on Amazon. There are ways to get word of your game out without expensive add campaigns. Working with news sites to make nterviews, play tests and developer diaries can help a lot as well. No word about a game means low profile in gamers minds and people miss them completely.

[vudu]

I'll bet Muramasa was the one they didn't lose money on. That one seems to have the best sales out of all of them.

It states in the article that LKS sold the best.

[NWR_pap64]

The typical Nintendo fan really doesn't like it when 3rd parties complain about their lack of game sales. Out of the list of games that they developed only one sounded worth while to play.

Can you imagine in music if there was more then one format and the musical artist was bitching about how their songs didn't sell? Good things sell themselves. They have nothing to complain about. The Wii has a 56.69 million user base at 48.6% market share. If their products aren't going to sell on there, they aren't going to sell on another format either.

Every generation there is an acclaim or a midway who does this, they usually make too much product with not enough focus.

You obviously haven't played the games mentioned in this article. Save for Valhalla Knights (which was crap) and Arc Rise Fantasia (which hasn't been released in North America), they have released some good to great games on Wii. Muramasa has a fantastic art style and solid gameplay, and I have yet to hear anything bad about Little King's Story. So, the games' overall quality didn't affect sales.

What I will agree, however, is that they are very niche, and it's hard for them to compete for either audience. The hardcore audience is dominated by games like GTA, Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, Halo and such, while the casual side is head over heels in LOVE with the Wii series and similar third party games. In other words, a game like Muramasa is too obscure for the mainstream audience, and its too weird for its core audience.

Also, guys, while I agree that whining about poor sales and blaming the Wii will not create better sales, you have to remember that even the simplest of games can cost up to millions to produce. If a publisher doesn't see any return them can you blame them for being upset? It doesn't help that the world economy is still in the crapper.

[that Baby guy]

I'll bet Muramasa was the one they didn't lose money on. That one seems to have the best sales out of all of them.

It states in the article that LKS sold the best.

Does it?  It says it's best sales were in Europe, but I don't believe it lists the sales of any game other than that across the three main regions.  That's part of why I question the validity of this report:  The way the numbers are presented are inconsistent and misleading, to the point of being downright confusing.

The typical Nintendo fan really doesn't like it when 3rd parties complain about their lack of game sales. Out of the list of games that they developed only one sounded worth while to play.

Can you imagine in music if there was more then one format and the musical artist was bitching about how their songs didn't sell? Good things sell themselves. They have nothing to complain about. The Wii has a 56.69 million user base at 48.6% market share. If their products aren't going to sell on there, they aren't going to sell on another format either.

Every generation there is an acclaim or a midway who does this, they usually make too much product with not enough focus.

You obviously haven't played the games mentioned in this article. Save for Valhalla Knights (which was crap) and Arc Rise Fantasia (which hasn't been released in North America), they have released some good to great games on Wii. Muramasa has a fantastic art style and solid gameplay, and I have yet to hear anything bad about Little King's Story. So, the games' overall quality didn't affect sales.

What I will agree, however, is that they are very niche, and it's hard for them to compete for either audience. The hardcore audience is dominated by games like GTA, Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, Halo and such, while the casual side is head over heels in LOVE with the Wii series and similar third party games. In other words, a game like Muramasa is too obscure for the mainstream audience, and its too weird for its core audience.

Also, guys, while I agree that whining about poor sales and blaming the Wii will not create better sales, you have to remember that even the simplest of games can cost up to millions to produce. If a publisher doesn't see any return them can you blame them for being upset? It doesn't help that the world economy is still in the crapper.

I'm not whining about poor sales, though, Pap.  I've heard of at least one game that's sold numbers like this, at least looked like it cost more to produce, and was a moderate success.  That's what bothers me.  These aren't unsuccessful numbers for this type of game.  It might cost a few million, at the most, to make these games, but even that's pushing it.  These aren't titles that typically take much time, nor resources to create, and should have expected these numbers.  There was virtually no marketing.  I don't see where the cost is.  I truly believe something is being withheld here, that there's some type of dishonesty being presented, given what's presented to us here.

[vudu]

No other game was released across all three regions.

[Stratos]

I'll bet Muramasa was the one they didn't lose money on. That one seems to have the best sales out of all of them.

It states in the article that LKS sold the best.

Does it?  It says it's best sales were in Europe, but I don't believe it lists the sales of any game other than that across the three main regions.  That's part of why I question the validity of this report:  The way the numbers are presented are inconsistent and misleading, to the point of being downright confusing.

Agreed. Notice how the Harvest Moon sales are Year-to-Date and 'came out earlier this year' while Muramasa has been out, what? A month or two?

NPD placed Muramasa at 56k if I recall and so Japanese 46k + NA 56k = 104k. Muramasa sold more than LKS excluding the PAL region. So Muramasa performed better than Harvest Moon. Also note certain XSeed published titles like Rune Factory are not on the list even though Marvelous had a hand with that game as well.

[that Baby guy]

Off the top of my head, I'd like to know how many copies of Muramasa sold in the US.  Additionally, if the game hasn't been released in all territories, are they really utilizing a publishing process that's designed to maximize sales?  To me, this press release left me with the impression that the sales of these titles was virtually over.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Expensive niche games with no advertising?  Give me a break.

With the promotion side of things in the gutter, these games were made for the sake of existing, not for the sake of making money.

Not only must your products compete, your marketing has to compete.

[vudu]

NPD placed Muramasa at 56k if I recall and so Japanese 46k + NA 56k = 104k.

It was 36,000 for NPD, not 56,000

The only number that was left off this list was Vanhalla Knights sales in Japan, which are around 10,000 units.  Here's a handy chart for everyone.

Game Title	America	Japan	Europe	Total
Muramasa	36,000	47,000	N/A	83,000
ARF	N/A	45,000	N/A	45,000
LKS	37,000	26,000	67,000	130,000
Valhalla Knights	16,000	10,000	N/A	26,000

[Stratos]

Looks like only one real failure there: Valhalla Knights.

Muramasa will probably hit 100k at least. Holiday will probably boost it's tail end of sales.

Thanks for the chart and clarification, Vudu.

[vudu]

You're welcome!  I agree that it was hard to read the information in paragraph form.  Charts are great! 

[that Baby guy]

No, Muramasa's US sales were left off the list, too, vudu.  It means there were two numbers left off the list Marvelous spoke about.

To the me, I'd think absence would mean negligible sales, but that isn't the case.  36,000 sold isn't a small number.  Then, seeing that only one game has been released across all three region makes me wonder if this statement wasn't an attempt to hide that Marvelous has been inept at delivering their content to the region they've had highest sales success in so far.  When you present it in chart form, the absence of releases in Europe shows poor planning and management.

Like I said, something was wrong, and your chart helps solidify that idea:  Why aren't titles being released in Europe, where, apparently, they've been the most successful?

Edit:  Additionally, this news comes on the heel of the announcement of No More Heroes being ported to the 360 and PS3.  Wasn't that speculated from the release of the game on the Wii, and ever since then?  Marvelous is behind the port, as far as I'm aware, and the delay in progressing said port forward also raises questions.  No More Heroes was released in 2007.  If a company believed it could be successful on another platform, waiting three years to release a port really seems like a bad business decision... And even if there were strategic purpose, wouldn't you want to time the release to either be simultaneous to it's sequel's release, or perhaps even a month or two before it?

Literally, what I'm trying to say is that at least the big-budget guys have somewhat reasonable complaints.  They offer games that have higher production values, market them, and attempt to be competitive.  The circumstance here is different.  Rather than getting the games to as many hands as possible, they've cut off their most successful region.  Rather than making a simple port available as a reaction to the marketplace, they wait to release it to what could be the least optimal time possible.  If I were a share-holder, I'd be calling for the CEO's head, observing this.  This is bad business, especially for a publicly traded company.