Topic: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean

[Chozo Ghost]

Okay BnM, you're right... a kid under 3 is considered a toddler, and that's the age where kids can't seem to resist shoving things into their mouths. I wouldn't expect a 5 or 6 year old to be in danger of choking to death on an analog stick, but I guess you never know.

But if we're going to be ridiculous about it, kids could theoretically die from the plastic the Wii console is wrapped in, or choke to death on the wrist strip, or censor bar, or god knows what else. Does that mean we should ban all these things just because this COULD happen? No. And I don't think my good idea should be rejected just because of that small possibility either.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I only bring it up because I know a 3yr old that plays Princess Peach with moderate success and Rabbids go home with so much enthusiasm. She may not be that great at either game, but you would be surprised at the things she can get through in either game.

The funniest thing is when she beats her 7year old sisters records on WiiFitPlus including the adding game and the 3yr old barely knows how to count past 10.

But that's enough of me being off topic here (because we're on a new page and I forgot what we were even talking about).

[KDR_11k]

I actually got the idea from reading the last couple post in this thread, but

The one thing I haven't heard anybody mention and never seen a patent on.

Analog D-Pad.

where is it? why has no one invented and patented it yet(or have they)?
this seems like the solution to the handheld analog nub problem and too many control inputs on one controller.

DS2 should have an Analog D-Pad.

Bad idea, analog control requires some distance to travel so you can actually input values other than 0 and maximum. The PS2 controllers had analog buttons and they sucked, you can't get any analog control out of <1mm travel. Either you'd have to make that d-pad take a long way to press which would suck for digital gaming or you'd lack any real travel which would make people not even notice the analog.

[Adrock]

But if we're going to be ridiculous about it, kids could theoretically die from the plastic the Wii console is wrapped in, or choke to death on the wrist strip, or censor bar, or god knows what else. Does that mean we should ban all these things just because this COULD happen? No. And I don't think my good idea should be rejected just because of that small possibility either.

How is that ridiculous? There are choking hazard warnings on every plastic bag large enough to fit over someone's head. Clearly these things happen if the warnings exist. And I didn't say ban these things. I just think it's a bad idea. You're asking people to simply attach and remove small pieces from a controller. The same people Nintendo says get confused by even looking at a traditional controller. Nintendo is assuming these people are f*cking morons. And these same morons could easily lose these pieces. Not that they're expensive, but if you don't have said piece, you can't play. It's just better to keep things as simple as possible.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I actually got the idea from reading the last couple post in this thread, but

The one thing I haven't heard anybody mention and never seen a patent on.

Analog D-Pad.

where is it? why has no one invented and patented it yet(or have they)?
this seems like the solution to the handheld analog nub problem and too many control inputs on one controller.

DS2 should have an Analog D-Pad.

Bad idea, analog control requires some distance to travel so you can actually input values other than 0 and maximum. The PS2 controllers had analog buttons and they sucked, you can't get any analog control out of <1mm travel. Either you'd have to make that d-pad take a long way to press which would suck for digital gaming or you'd lack any real travel which would make people not even notice the analog.

Actually I think I have a pretty good idea on how to solve that problem. I'll share that idea with the forum later when I have access to a scanner and then everyone can tell me how much it sucks and why it would never work.

[Chozo Ghost]

I actually got the idea from reading the last couple post in this thread, but

The one thing I haven't heard anybody mention and never seen a patent on.

Analog D-Pad.

where is it? why has no one invented and patented it yet(or have they)?
this seems like the solution to the handheld analog nub problem and too many control inputs on one controller.

DS2 should have an Analog D-Pad.

Bad idea, analog control requires some distance to travel so you can actually input values other than 0 and maximum. The PS2 controllers had analog buttons and they sucked, you can't get any analog control out of <1mm travel. Either you'd have to make that d-pad take a long way to press which would suck for digital gaming or you'd lack any real travel which would make people not even notice the analog.

Which is where a detachable thumbstick would come into the equation. It could be one you snap in, one you screw in, or one that just folds out, but in any case it could be done.

[KDR_11k]

Analog sticks are mounted on balls, a d-pad wouldn't have enough angular traverse to really use a stick with.

[Chozo Ghost]

Analog sticks are mounted on balls, a d-pad wouldn't have enough angular traverse to really use a stick with.

Imagine a D-pad, but in the center of that is a hole where the ball is and where you attach the thumbstick. The D-pad would skirt around the ball and never actually touch it so it wouldn't affect it at all. And since the thumbstick would be detachable, it wouldn't affect the D-pad either when it is attached.

I'm thinking this D-pad would be shaped like a ring and would be hollow in the center. That hollow center is where the analog stick would be when its snapped in. Imagine a ring and then add the up, down, left, right bars coming out of it.

[KDR_11k]

Why would you want a dpad there then? Why not make the analog ball separate from the dpad? Also balls like that are very deep, not good for aportable.

[BlackNMild2k1]

PS3's Motion Control Approach: Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick
Industy Gamers talks with Rob Dyer, SCEA Senior Vice President of Publisher Relations

Sony call out MS and Natal!? Says they are blowing smoke and are all talk?

Frankly, what we told Dyer is that from a pure marketing and PR perspective, Natal seems to be winning the battle. Microsoft has done much more to hype up Natal as some revolutionary platform, while emphasizing what great support they've garnered from the major publishers. Dyer, of course, sees this as simply a lot of posturing by Microsoft. He remains extremely confident in Sony's product."I'm actually really proud of the way we've handled the motion controller. From Sony's perspective, rather than go out and do a whole PR barrage to give everybody the 'happy, happy, joy, joy' news, we're going to show up and have a line-up of products to show people rather than having a lot of great statements to say, 'This is what's going to happen.' So whether it's at GDC or DPS (Destination PlayStation), and definitely at E3, you're going to see – and I've seen it from both first and third parties – some really awesome products to support this," he said. "And rather than us go there and pat ourselves on the back, and send out press releases talking about this, we're going to be Missouri; it's going to be 'show me.' And that's the deal."

Quick jab to the gut of Nintendo and the Wii to follow....

He continued, "From a third-party perspective it's easier to develop for, you can use the same code base that you currently use for PS3 or 360 or even the Wii in order to get a motion controller game out. You can't do that with Natal. You have to have a completely separate code base and my feeling is that we're going to have a lot more games, a lot more innovation – particularly with the camera and the precision – versus what you'll have with Natal or the Wii. We can all sit around here and debate that... but the fact is I'm not having any trouble getting third-party support.”
[...]
We're going to have games coming from third parties that are hardcore games – these are not fluff pieces – which will incorporate the motion controller.

Now Sony calls MS a bunch of amateurs

We then asked Dyer if he's at all concerned about PS3 getting a flood of cheap, Wii-like cash-ins since Sony's motion controller is much more similar to Wii than Natal. He countered, "I can assure you that's not what you're going to see. The fact that we use a camera changes everything. I think the press has forgotten that Sony has been using a camera [for a long time]. This is now our second iteration of it. We know what the consumer wants with regards to using a camera and whether they want something in their hands or not. I think Natal will have some great games on that system that'll work well without implements, and we're going to have what we think are better games because we have a lot more learning from [the camera]. We've done this for a long time... it's not our first foray into this business.”

Bonus:
Hardcore Gamers want Motion Controls, Publisher insight on developing for Wii and a confirmation that MLB will be using ARC!?

But what if the hardcore gamer doesn't care? Do you really want some motion controls shoehorned into Uncharted? We asked Dyer if Sony has done focus groups to find out what the hardcore wants. He answered, β€œYes... I was actually at a presentation yesterday at one of the publishers where we were presenting this stuff. Trust me, we've spent way too much money on way too many outside resources looking at this. It's not, 'Oh gee, Nintendo did this. What a great idea. We need a motion controller.' It's 'Does our consumer want it? Does it make sense for the games? Can publishers maximize it and sell more games?' Based upon our research, the answer is 'Yes, a definitive resounding Yes."

He added, "I think there are some games that are purpose built not to have a motion controller and there are some games that are purpose built that would be better with a motion controller. Having been on the publisher side and having made Wii games, the problem a lot of the time was because you had that Wii remote from the get go you felt like if you weren't using it, were you really making the right kind of game? I think that's been a problem for a lot of publishers. Can I make a game that's compelling using this motion controller? And if you can't then just make a great game without it... I think people had a problem doing that on the Wii. But you're right – there are probably certain franchises that should never ever use the motion controller. But then there are some where you might go, 'You know what, this would be pretty cool if I had a real gun' or if I could really swing a baseball bat, or swing a golf club. When you get MLB and play it with the motion controls, it'll be like an epiphany. Angels will start singing and you'll have a very different experience. I promise you that; it's so damn cool.  We're not making any official announcements, but I've seen the technology on it. The tech is very different from what's out there today."

[SixthAngel]

I like that they say they are coming out swinging with real games.  It is a very Nintendo like approach to show the product with the games together like that.
It makes me think they are going to be way ahead of MS in the actual games department for their add-on.

[BlackNMild2k1]

To be honest, I'm a little excited to see what comes from Arc.
I know it's a different approach to the Wiimote, but 3rd parties seem to care for this version and I want to see what kind of efforts we've been missing out on all these years.

E3 is gonna be off the hook this year

Zelda Wii
DS2(?)
PSP2(?)
Arc
Natal

that's big stuff from everyone right there.
I can only imagine what the 3rd parties are gonna bring to the table.

[Chozo Ghost]

This Sony guy sounds like a jerk, but sadly he is right...

It hurts when you throw a party and no one comes, and then someone else copies your party and EVERYONE comes. And by everyone, I mean the third parties. Nintendo is treated like an outcast, and I don't know if there's anything they can do to turn things around.

[Ian Sane]

I think there are some games that are purpose built not to have a motion controller and there are some games that are purpose built that would be better with a motion controller. Having been on the publisher side and having made Wii games, the problem a lot of the time was because you had that Wii remote from the get go you felt like if you weren't using it, were you really making the right kind of game? I think that's been a problem for a lot of publishers. Can I make a game that's compelling using this motion controller? And if you can't then just make a great game without it... I think people had a problem doing that on the Wii. But you're right – there are probably certain franchises that should never ever use the motion controller.

This.  This is everything.  This is why so many Wii games are complete trash.  This is what Nintendo doesn't get.  Nintendo considers motion control a standard and then shoehorns stupid waggle in NSMB Wii and my brother gets everyone killed because he's a fidgety spaz who can't hold the controller still and keeps accidentally spinning.  Sony is looking at this as an OPTION that SOME games would benefit from and some should never use.  And the standard controller for the PS3 remains the fairly coventional Dualshock 3.  Arc is about making the PS3 more flexible while the Wii has always been Nintendo shoving THEIR "standard" in your face.  "Do it as we say" vs. "Do as you feel" and people wonder why Nintendo has such shitty third party support.
 
I know this is just talk but it reminds me of the unstoppable juggernaut Sony that got that obvious stuff right that Nintendo always shockingly got wrong.  Sony was never good at innovation but they were always good at getting the little things right.  This sounds like PS1 and PS2 Sony.  I'm skeptical of the technology and whether it will work as tight as the Wii remote (which itself is a little loose).  But if this is the attitude Sony has, they'll beat Nintendo again, at some point.  They've got the attitude that will win over developers and win over gamers.
 
If Arc takes off what has Nintendo got?  Motion control is the only thing the Wii has going for it.  Sony matches that and the Wii is just an underpowered glorified last-gen console with Gamecube-esque third party support.

[vudu]

Sony is looking at this as an OPTION that SOME games would benefit from and some should never use.  And the standard controller for the PS3 remains the fairly coventional Dualshock 3.

Was motion control optional in Lair?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Last I checked Nintendo wasn't forcing everyone to use motion controls. That is part of the reason that the Classic Controller exist.

"Do as we say" - Nintendo gets hated on for being too controlling
"Do as you feel" - Nintendo gets hated on for being too relaxed on standards.

Nintendo gave options from the start on Day 1, no one ever said "you have to put motion in all your games" it's always been about making sure everyone had the tech in their hand and the developers have the choice to utilize it or don't. If it doesn't fit the game, then don't use it. But if you want to work it in in a way that works, then by all means, have at it, since every gamer is equipped to take advantage of motion controls out of the box.

Does Monster Hunter 3 force Motion Controls on the user? No.
Does No More Heroes 2 force Motion Controls on the user? No.

There have always been options, it's just developers have been thinking that since the Wii comes with motion, i have to use motion, and as the guy in the article stated, no, no you don't. But if you do use it, at least use it right and in places that make sense.

The issue with Sony and MS's approach to motion controls, is that it is just another peripheral that may see early support, but if it doesn't blow up early, then it will be forgotten just like the original PSEye/EyeToy and any other system add-on that failed after the first 8 months.

[Chozo Ghost]

If Arc takes off what has Nintendo got?  Motion control is the only thing the Wii has going for it.  Sony matches that and the Wii is just an underpowered glorified last-gen console with Gamecube-esque third party support.

A lower price, and Nintendo exclusives. Plus a larger install base right from the get-go and the inertia to keep the sales moving forward. The Wii also benefits from the balance board, which Sony has so far not got around to copying (yet), which means Nintendo will still have the exercise/yoga/fitness crowd locked up for the forseeable future.

I think you're right though in the sense that this might mark a turning point where Nintendo starts to lose ground, but it will take a long time for Sony to build up momentum and I think by that time the Wii 2.0 will be ready. So Nintendo's position is pretty secure, I think.

[broodwars]

Sony is looking at this as an OPTION that SOME games would benefit from and some should never use.  And the standard controller for the PS3 remains the fairly coventional Dualshock 3.

Was motion control optional in Lair?

Eventually, yes.  Enough players and reviewers complained to Factor 5 that their Sixaxis controller just didn't work that they eventually patched the game to allow analog stick control (alongside other improvements that apparently brought the game from "horrible" to just "average").

[ThePerm]

Ian, I think thats a little harsh on Nintendo's part saying they are shoving motion control down anybodies face. I think some games have used motion control well, and others have poorly implemented it. For instance, i would prefer a waggle game like Twilight Princess over Mario Kart*, but if the next Zelda uses M+ and uses it well then I would prefer that. I think as a whole there has been a lull in development, and Nintendo just hasn't implemented the best control because to stay profitable they have to release games regularly. I really do think the better games are on the way.

* i know alot of you like Mario Kart Wii, but i just find a non tethered steering wheel unnatural and weird, and actually i prefer playing racing games with a D-pad. Mario Kart DS is king to me still.

[Ian Sane]

Last I checked Nintendo wasn't forcing everyone to use motion controls. That is part of the reason that the Classic Controller exist.

But the classic controller is the optional purchase.  If you make a game that requires it you run the risk that a large segment of the Wii userbase can't play your game.  Even games that use of the classic controller and appear to be designed specifically for it have some motion control option shoe-horned in, so that all Wii owners can play it.
 
With Sony the motion controller is the optional purchase.  The "normal" controller is the standard so there is no pressure to force in any motion control that doesn't work.  Nintendo stated that the remote was to be a new standard.  It isn't.  From what we've got I consider motion control to be like a lightgun or a dancepad.  It's the sort of thing that is awesome for a game designed specifically for it but is far too inflexible to be a standard.
 
But Nintendo promotes it as a standard and the "normal" controller as the accessory.  They themselves make games like Punch-Out and NSMB that seem designed for the classic controller but don't support it at all.  They are forcing the remote into a role I don't think it was ever ideal for.  And the only justification for the Wii to even exist is motion control, since it's hardware is practically last-gen.  Motion control is the Wii's whole identity and if Nintendo creates a game that really has no reason to have motion control in it they will force it in, replacing a button push with a gesture or adding some pointing related mini-game.
 
The attitude that Sony suggested in that quote was that motion control was something that is to only be used in situations where it makes sense to.  Nintendo does not have that attitude.  Making the novelty control the standard and the normal controller the accessory demonstrates that.
 

 I think you're right though in the sense that this might mark a turning point where Nintendo starts to lose ground, but it will take a long time for Sony to build up momentum and I think by that time the Wii 2.0 will be ready. So Nintendo's position is pretty secure, I think.

I think Nintendo will be fine as well IF they react to this correctly.  But I think that's a big "if".  Nintendo succeeded this gen in a very sneaky way.  They sucked in direct competition so they went with something completely different and targetted a new market.  That market isn't new anymore and if Arc is actually a decent product then it's a direct competition again.  I always felt Nintendo always lost to Sony because they shot themselves in the foot.  They always just gave people reasons to go with the competition.  Their strategy with the Wii was to avoid direct compeition so they never learned or addressed these issues.  Friend codes?  The huge clusterfuck regarding storage space?  That's the sort of stuff that in a direct competition would just be handing Sony pros.  They got away with that crap THIS time but not in direct competition.  Those things shouldn't be there in the first place.  Those are the sort of dumb easily-avoidable ****-ups that were all over the Gamecube.  They come about because of Nintendo's stubborn insistence on being unique in every situation.  They never learned.
 
So it really all depends on what the Wii 2.0 turns out to be, but Nintendo already has the weakest third party support and we know they still insist on always being different.  That's two big cons right there.  Will they come up with something with the same impact as the remote again?  I personally question if they'll even top the PS3 specs with the Wii 2.0.  Until they learn WHEN to be different, they'll always be vulnerable.

[Chozo Ghost]

Ian, there does exist some games that use the wiimote/nunchuck setup in a traditional non-waggle way. For example, have you played Little King's story? That game uses the mote/chuck but it doesn't utilize the motion aspect at all (even though it could have benefited from a pointer). Or how about Rune Factory Frontier? That game let's you use motion controls when you're fishing or using a weapon, but you don't have to. I'm playing that game and I've never used the motion controls, except on the rare occasion when I accidently trigger it by moving the controller...

And I'm sure there are lots of other games out there like that which either don't use waggle at all, or at least give you the option of not using it. So my point is the Wii control setup can and is sometimes used for the traditional games. Is it well suited for this? I dunno, maybe not, but it can work.

[ThePerm]

the wiimote + nunchuck is not much different then a regular controller. Joystick, 4 main face buttons(the d-pad) and 3 shoulder buttons, start+ and select-, plus theres 1 and 2 and A. You could play virtually any regular game on a wii-mote. The classic controller only improves 2d snes/nes games because of the d-pad, but your standard modern game could be made just fine, and actually you have a lot more room to play around with control schemes as a developer than you did with the Gamecube.

I wouldn't paint Nintendo as a vulnerable loser either, they have the market share, and sure they have had problems with appealing to the hardcore demographic, but this isn't as different from the Gamecube generation as people would like to paint. Wiifit, and the casual games are the modern version of Animal Crossing and Mario Party. They are filler. They make money while the pet projects cook. I would say Nintendo has done better this generation as a developer than they did last. I don't have as many games, but thats because 3rd parties have dropped to their last brancell. Mario Galaxy is better than Mario Sunshine, Twilight Princess was a gamecube game(a good one, if you didn't like it, its usually because you were not a Zelda newbie). Mario Galaxy 2 is coming out, and a new Zelda is supposed to come out this year(some are skeptical, but i keep track of zelda news and this one was mentioned during TP development).

[Adrock]

But the classic controller is the optional purchase....
 
With Sony the motion controller is the optional purchase.

So, the PS3 dildo optional. Wonderful. Thanks, but that's exactly why it's going to fail. Extras have a hard time selling because they're extras. Unless you have something people want, no one is going to pay extra for it. I have a hard time believing Sony, of all companies, is going to create a magical, wonder game that entices everyone to embrace their controller. 3rd parties might put it in their games as an option, but I'd bet most people will just play using the Dualshock 3.

Nintendo still has the edge here. They aren't forcing motion controls on anyone's games. 3rd parties just have this weird mindset that their Wii titles MUST have motion controls. On the Wii, motion controls are always optional but in a controller that every console owner already has.

And thanks for bringing the lulz with:

The attitude that Sony suggested in that quote was that motion control was something that is to only be used in situations where it makes sense to.

This is the same Sony that said the PS3 is $600 because it's a computer then less than 3 years later was like "Uhhh, f*ck Linux..."

[ThePerm]

yeah. ad-ons don't sell well, and games that need ad-ons don't sell well either. One could ask why Majora's Mask had weak sales compared to Oot and that was because MM needed the expansion pak, conker needed the expansion pak, and perfect dark needed it to play most of the game. Those game all had mediocre sales(by Nintendo standards). Same goes for the Virtua Cop and House of Dead games on Dreamcast, or Seaman, or hey you pikachu, vitually any game that requires an addon. The Wii-mote is the standard because there are maybe 80-100 million of them out on the market. Any sort of game could be made with them, so the idea that Nintendo fails because Nintendo treats them as standard is flawed.

[Adrock]

Extras don't always fail (i.e. Rock Band, Guitar Hero). I just don't see how anyone could think that Sony could be more successful than Nintendo here. They're already 4 years behind.