Topic: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean

[broodwars]

Nintendo better watch it's back. Sony says that Wii won't be able to compete with GEM in family, sports and shooter games when it comes to motion controls...


http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/213252/sony-talks-2010-project-natal-and-wii-are-going-to-have-trouble/

GP: What kinds of upcoming PS3 titles will benefit from motion control?

Koller: It's a pretty seamless toolset that's going to accent gameplay substantially. In terms of the best types of games, I'd say that right now we're looking a real wide variety of genres that can utilize the technology. I think the areas that are going to be really critical to our success will be family games, as well as shooters and sports games. Those are going to be the areas that will really define success, because they're areas that quite honestly, I think Project Natal and the Wii are going to have trouble matching, from a differentiation standpoint. We look at motion control as being that much more than what exists on the market. The Holy Grail of gaming is placing you as a consumer into the game physically. When we provide further details, people will see exactly where we're going, not only from a technological standpoint on the hardware, but also where the gameplay is transitioning. It's going to be a really exciting launch.

Oh Sony.....
Nintendo owns 2/3 of what you just said they'll "have trouble matching" and have owned it for 3 going on 4 years now.

Yeah, really...Sony, if you want to carve your own niche in motion control gaming, that's fine but carve it in niches that the Wii is historically bad at like 3rd person Adventure games.  Going after family games is a waste of time at this point, and Nintendo's going to have an absolute lock on sports games as well once Wii Motion + hits total saturation.  They can probably make good ground in shooters since more of those companies are interested in the PS3 than the Wii, though.

[D_Average]

What do you expect them to say?  It'll look silly with mediocre controls?  Just like Nitendo did before the Wii came out, Sony too will talk of things the remote won't really be able to pull off.

[Chozo Ghost]

Nintendo could counter this be bundling M+ with the consoles, or better yet create a new model of the wiimote with M+ built into it by default. I'm sure this Sony troll might be right about their controller being better than a vanilla wiimote, but he may not be taking M+ into consideration.

[KDR_11k]

I think Sony talking about "better" shows that they're still playing the wrong game. This isn't about better, it's not about tech. It's about the games and as long as the controller can be used for games people really want they succeed. I don't think Sony is motivated to extend the use of GEM beyond what the PS3 already does. They won't have Wii _____ style killer apps, they'll only have FPSes with motion controls and some minigame collections that the third parties make for "retarded casuals" (third parties can't get expanded audience games right on the Wii, there's no way they'd magically pull it off on the PS3).

[BlackNMild2k1]

I really think Sony will capitalize on FPS & TPS using GEM. It really is a missed opportunity by not only Nintendo but especially by 3rd party developers.

Just think about how much better some games could have been (grafx aside) with a Wii version
RE5 - Capcom
Deadspace - EA
GTAIV - Take 2
MW2 - Activision
Lost Planet - Capcom
and countless other games that aren't coming to mind at the moment.

Sad thing is, as soon as GEM drops, you will all of a sudden see a bunch of these types of games getting released for it, and the only reason it didn't happen before hand is because 3rd parties couldn't blow way past the necessary budget just to add phenomenal graphics and effects.

[KDR_11k]

The alternative theory is that third parties are afraid of the Wii because it threatens the game industry's current development with its very limited DLC support, lower graphics capabilities (so you can't make that your only selling point which FPSes tend to do) and lower game prices (50€ for a new Nintendo game vs 70€ for a new HD game).

[Ian Sane]

Going after the same market as Nintendo with motion control is stupid.  Nintendo already has that locked up.  Sony would have to do the same job significantly better to steal that market from Nintendo.  They can't just be equal or a little bit better to get people to jump ship.

What is the common negative stereotype reagrding the Wii?  That it's the casual console for wimps and grandmas.  That's not a flattering image.  So why not use that to your advantage?  Nintendo is kind of dropping the ball in regards to using the remote in a way that pleases "real" gamers.  So wouldn't it make sense to be the company that does?  Part of the whole advantage that the PS3 will have once it has this is that it has motion control AND HD graphics.  It will do everything the Wii can (in theory) plus MORE.  So while Nintendo is making glorified mini-game collections with N64 level graphics use that advantage and show the world what motion control can REALLY be used for.  Preying on Nintendo's outright, well, wimpiness was a strong marketing tool in helping the PS1 and 2 crush Nintendo.

Though there is a big assumption here in that for Sony to do this they actually have to deliver the goods.  They just plain might be unable to come up with anything to use motion control beyond what Nintendo is already doing.  I would generally consider Nintendo to be better at busting out games that put the rest of the industry to shame.  But ideally I think that's the winning strategy.  Prey on the Wii's weaknesses (Wiiknesses?) and make Wii Sports look like a half-assed mini-game collection.

Though I suppose Sony might feel they have the core market locked up and the only way to compete is to steal the casuals away.  Being the alternative to the Wii is kind of what the have right now (or more specifically what MS has).

[KDR_11k]

No, aiming GEM at the core would mean death for Sony. Nintendo is disrupting the market, they are slowly creeping upmarket. If Sony retreats from that or even worse, responds with cramming (throwing the disruptive innovation in with their sustaining ones) they will lose ground. Making the same thing but better will not be able to attack Nintendo's market while leaving Nintendo the option to become better themselves with significantly more expertise. Nintendo is the expert at motion controls currently, in that arena Sony will be the newbie, the small fry who doesn't stand a chance yet and if they try to go toe to toe with Nintendo they will lose. Motion controls have a much wider span of quality (in the customer's eyes) than graphics, dealbreaking graphics are rare but dealbreaking motion controls are common. Only dealbreakers really matter, anything else is something the customer is willing to overlook and I don't get the feeling that lower than 360 graphics are really a dealbreaker for many (after all they bought games for the PS2). That is why talking about business strategies is important, if you try to advise a company on a strategy you must know how all the actors in the market are behaving.

MS has already given up, they've announced that they'd rather go for the hardcore now.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

lol what a waste of an e3

[Caterkiller]

MS has already given up, they've announced that they'd rather go for the hardcore now.

Huh? Could you explain that? Was there some press release that said something like that but nicely?

[KDR_11k]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-hardcore-games-easiest-to-sell

they're still considering the core their base and mostly see the casual market as a side dish.

[Ian Sane]

It's probably smart of MS to stick with the core... assuming they actually make money doing so.  There's nothing wrong with being the first choice with a specific target market.  It'll give them to freedom to focus their efforts on that market and not risk losing everything by spreading themselves too thin.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

So Natal was a waste of marketing and decent 30sec on Colbert Report.

[Guitar Smasher]

It's probably smart of MS to stick with the core... assuming they actually make money doing so.  There's nothing wrong with being the first choice with a specific target market.  It'll give them to freedom to focus their efforts on that market and not risk losing everything by spreading themselves too thin.

Isn't that what Nintendo was doing until Sony usurped them?  And now the same is happening to Sony?  I agree that they should try to maintain a solid foundation, but if they remain stagnant they're asking for trouble.

[Peachylala]

Trying to please the hardcore was what made Nintendo rush out Sunshine and Wind Waker, and turn Wind Waker 2 into Twilight Princess. That pretty much dug them into a hole.

It's probably smart of MS to stick with the core... assuming they actually make money doing so.  There's nothing wrong with being the first choice with a specific target market.  It'll give them to freedom to focus their efforts on that market and not risk losing everything by spreading themselves too thin.

Would it hurt them to make a console that doesn't destroy itself?

[KDR_11k]

It's probably smart of MS to stick with the core... assuming they actually make money doing so.  There's nothing wrong with being the first choice with a specific target market.  It'll give them to freedom to focus their efforts on that market and not risk losing everything by spreading themselves too thin.

The problem is that this creates an asymmetry of motivation that blunts any efforts to fight the disruption. They treat Natal as an extension of their core business with some casual appeal which doesn't work because some of the fundamentals of core gaming are what turns the expanded audience away (strong focus on stories, for example) while the core market couldn't care less about the motion controls the devs will tack onto their core games.

[broodwars]

It's probably smart of MS to stick with the core... assuming they actually make money doing so.  There's nothing wrong with being the first choice with a specific target market.  It'll give them to freedom to focus their efforts on that market and not risk losing everything by spreading themselves too thin.

The problem is that this creates an asymmetry of motivation that blunts any efforts to fight the disruption. They treat Natal as an extension of their core business with some casual appeal which doesn't work because some of the fundamentals of core gaming are what turns the expanded audience away (strong focus on stories, for example) while the core market couldn't care less about the motion controls the devs will tack onto their core games.

IMO, Sony and Microsoft aren't targeting casuals so much as disillusioned Wii owners: people who bought a Wii because they bought into the dream of greater interaction with the games they already loved, and then discovered that Nintendo had very different plans.  There's no point targeting the casuals exclusively: they only buy a couple games a year, and Nintendo has that market locked-up.  I guess they figure if they can get them, great.  If not, they can eat away at Nintendo's remaining core fanbase and their competitor's.  And hey, someone has to try to advance core gaming through motion controls.  Might as well be them.

[Chozo Ghost]

I have to agree with broodwars. A lot of Wii owners expected the wiimote would be used for sword swinging  swash-buckling and shoot-em-up saving private ryan type games, but instead we get crap like Carnival Games, Mario & Sonic at the Olympics, Wii Fit, Wii Play, Wii Sports, Wii Music, and crap like that...

The motion controls COULD be exciting and hardcore, but Nintendo isn't aiming in that direction. It doesn't need to be either/or. You can have both hardcore games AND motion control at the same time, and we've seen that in games like RE4 where the controls work out great and in a few other games but it really isn't being harnessed as well as it should be.

And this is the threat that Sony poses to Nintendo with their GEM contoller. Sony might not be able to beat Nintendo in the casual arena, but Sony is getting games like Assassin's Creed, Batman Arkham Asylum, and so forth as exclusives. Now imagine these games with GEM support. It will look very bleak for the Wii when that happens. Sure, they grandmas and other casuals will still be doing their Wii Fit stuff on the Wii, but the 18-34 crowd who crave blood and gore might pack their bags.

[Ian Sane]

IMO, Sony and Microsoft aren't targeting casuals so much as disillusioned Wii owners: people who bought a Wii because they bought into the dream of greater interaction with the games they already loved, and then discovered that Nintendo had very different plans.

And yet when either Sony or MS talk about motion control they tie it in extensively with casual stuff.  The whole industry has pigeonholed the motion control concept as nothing more than a lame novelty that impresses non-gamers.  Targetting disillusioned Wii owners is who they SHOULD be targetting but I don't really think they are.
 
And again to target this group you have to deliver the goods.  If you just pump out Red Steel level disasters then it won't do anything.  When Nintendo makes lame use of motion control do they choose to only use it in that way or are they just incapable of making it work better?  If it's because Nintendo just can't do better, then Sony and MS won't be able to.  If Nintendo can't do it, I figure no one can.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I hope it all comes out soon, the sooner the Industry implodes, the better.

[Luigi Dude]

I have to agree with broodwars. A lot of Wii owners expected the wiimote would be used for sword swinging  swash-buckling and shoot-em-up saving private ryan type games, but instead we get crap like Carnival Games, Mario & Sonic at the Olympics, Wii Fit, Wii Play, Wii Sports, Wii Music, and crap like that...

The motion controls COULD be exciting and hardcore, but Nintendo isn't aiming in that direction. It doesn't need to be either/or. You can have both hardcore games AND motion control at the same time, and we've seen that in games like RE4 where the controls work out great and in a few other games but it really isn't being harnessed as well as it should be.

And this is the threat that Sony poses to Nintendo with their GEM contoller. Sony might not be able to beat Nintendo in the casual arena, but Sony is getting games like Assassin's Creed, Batman Arkham Asylum, and so forth as exclusives. Now imagine these games with GEM support. It will look very bleak for the Wii when that happens. Sure, they grandmas and other casuals will still be doing their Wii Fit stuff on the Wii, but the 18-34 crowd who crave blood and gore might pack their bags.

Oh give me a break.  This audience has never been part of Nintendo's core fanbase and never will unless third parties actually start making more M rated titles for the system which they won't.  Nintendo's core fanbase has always been made up of casuals and families who buy Mario and Zelda because these are high quality games the whole family will like.  This is why the vast majority of all Nintendo games since the NES era have been family oriented games.  The only difference this gen is they've created new types of casual games that have even greater appeal to families, but it doesn't change the fact Nintendo has ALWAYS been a casual family oriented company.

Plus it's funny how some of you say Nintendo is losing it's core audience when in reality, Nintendo has actually gained a good amount of Sony's core audience.  The Playstation 1 and 2 won their generations because they had the most casual and family friendly games for those gens.  When Sony decided to make the PS3 with only the 18-34 male audience in mind, they forgot it was families that made the former Playstations so popular.  This is why ALL of Nintendo's core games have sold more then their Gamecube counterparts because Nintendo has managed to get a good percent of the casual family audience who only owned a PS2 last gen.

This is why Microsoft and Sony right now are no threat to Nintendo's core audience either.  The disillusioned Wii owners you guys talk about don't really exist.  The core gamers who bought a Wii bought it because they wanted games like Mario Galaxy, Smash Bros and Mario Kart.  The people who wanted games like GTA4, Gears of War and Assassins Creed already bought a PS3/360 way back in 2006 and 2007.  Nintendo's lineup in the first year made it obvious to everyone that their software lineup for the Wii would be the same family friendly software they've always released.  Not to mention the beyond terrible 3rd party support back in 2007 as well made it obvious the bloody M rated titles were pretty much going to be exclusive to the PS3/360.

Unless Microsoft and Sony start getting more family friendly games that can compete with Mario and Zelda then they have no chance of actually getting Nintendo true core audience.  Just releasing one title like Little Big Planet or Viva Pinata isn't going to do anything when every other game released on your system is full of violent dismemberment and bald space marines.  It's just like how during the Gamecube era, Nintendo publishing Eternal Darkness and having a few Resident Evil titles released for the system wasn't going to make the mature audience suddenly buy it when the PS2 and Xbox had way more.

[KDR_11k]

Sony is getting games like Assassin's Creed, Batman Arkham Asylum, and so forth as exclusives.

No they aren't. Those games are cross-platform with the 360 which tends to sell significantly more copies and will not have GEM. It may have Natal some day but that's way too different from GEM to allow a single control design to work with both.

[ThePerm]

As far as Nintendo targeting the casual market only...do you have any idea how much time it must take to experiment with new controls? It seems that Nintendo has always spent a lot of time experimenting, from the days of cabage that led to both animal crossing and pikmin, to the n64dd camera that led to Miis. It just seems that as a company they have very little vision when they start things, but they make up for it because when things shape up it is very well developed. As an artist in some of my classes I had that problem, i would spend weeks adjusting my idea until i could do something feasable, one time i really didn't meet my deadline. Thats what goes on at EAD. I am pretty sure there are some "hardcore" games in development, but they are going to take forever to get made. Not to mention EAD has games they are working on that we do know about like Mario Galaxy 2. If we do find out what they've been working on at e3, it still might not be released for 2 years. I'm pretty sure that the next Zelda game will be mind blowing, and then there will be some assortment of maybe 3 weird games that will create new genres. Its not that they are focusing on the casual market, its just their non-casual games aren't done yet, and aren't formed enough to show.

[Ian Sane]

Plus it's funny how some of you say Nintendo is losing it's core audience when in reality, Nintendo has actually gained a good amount of Sony's core audience.  The Playstation 1 and 2 won their generations because they had the most casual and family friendly games for those gens.

I disagree.  The first two Playstations dominated because Sony made them the ideal first-choice console for all demographics.  Casual or hardcore. Kids or adults. Male or female.  It was also the best choice for most genres as well, thus attracting genre fans.  The Playstation brand covered all bases and that is why it was such a dominating success.  Even if you looked at the things Nintendo, Sega or Microsoft did better, Sony still did them well.  If you owned a PS1 or 2 it was easy to find something you would like.  If we go before that the NES and SNES also succeeded in the same way.  These consoles offered something for everyone.  The PS3 lost this because it was priced too high to be the console for everyone.
 

 The disillusioned Wii owners you guys talk about don't really exist.

Apparently I don't exist.  But since I already own a PS3 I'll admit that Sony can't win me over with any motion control stuff since they already won me over.  I think the Wii's casual focus does drive a section of the gaming market away.  Unlike the PS2, the Wii fails as a console for everyone.  I've long said that Nintendo's problem is that they assume making something for everyone involves making every game for everyone and that's why they often stick to family-friendly games.  Sony's strategy to offer something for everyone was to make games that appeal to different demographics so that everyone can find a game that is catered to their tastes.  It's the different between making five games that five different people COULD like and creating one game each for those five people.  Sony will make both God of War and Buzz! which are almost polar opposite of each other.
 
But are there a lot of core gamers that own a Wii, are disappointed with it, and have not already bought the Xbox 360 or PS3?  I kind of doubt it.  The disillusioned Wii owners exist but I think they already changed sides.  What Sony can hope for is that existing Wii owners grow disinterested in it and that Sony can win them over.  If they could come up with vastly superior motion control usage that can be easily demostrated to the general public then they might be able to do it.  They might be able to create disillusioned Wii owners by showing off something vastly better.  But I doubt they're capable of that.

[Luigi Dude]

I disagree.  The first two Playstations dominated because Sony made them the ideal first-choice console for all demographics.  Casual or hardcore. Kids or adults. Male or female.  It was also the best choice for most genres as well, thus attracting genre fans.  The Playstation brand covered all bases and that is why it was such a dominating success.  Even if you looked at the things Nintendo, Sega or Microsoft did better, Sony still did them well.  If you owned a PS1 or 2 it was easy to find something you would like.  If we go before that the NES and SNES also succeeded in the same way.  These consoles offered something for everyone.  The PS3 lost this because it was priced too high to be the console for everyone.
 

You just restated a lot of my points.  The Playstation 1 and 2 dominated because they appealed to everyone, but over half of their audience was made up of casual family gamers.  Because Sony was so obsessed with Microsoft they focused way to much on the 18-34 male audience and completely forgot that a huge chunk of their userbase was made up of families.  Because of this, a lot of the families that might have owned a PS2 last gen, have a Wii this gen.

Last gen, all family oriented multiplatform titles sold the best on the PS2, this gen they sell the best on the Wii.  The overwhelming majority of Nintendo games are aimed at families, this gen all of their games have sold more then their Gamecube counterparts.  If you put 2 and 2 together it pretty obvious that Nintendo has been gaining a good chunk of Sony's former fanbase.

Apparently I don't exist.  But since I already own a PS3 I'll admitthat Sony can't win me over with any motion control stuff since theyalready won me over.  I think the Wii's casual focus does drive asection of the gaming market away.  Unlike the PS2, the Wii fails as aconsole for everyone.  I've long said that Nintendo's problem is thatthey assume making something for everyone involves making every gamefor everyone and that's why they often stick to family-friendly games. Sony's strategy to offer something for everyone was to make games thatappeal to different demographics so that everyone can find a game thatis catered to their tastes.  It's the different between making fivegames that five different people COULD like and creating one game eachfor those five people.  Sony will make both God of War and Buzz! whichare almost polar opposite of each other.

But are there a lot of core gamers that own a Wii, are disappointedwith it, and have not already bought the Xbox 360 or PS3?  I kind ofdoubt it.  The disillusioned Wii owners exist but I think they alreadychanged sides.  What Sony can hope for is that existing Wii owners growdisinterested in it and that Sony can win them over.  If they couldcome up with vastly superior motion control usage that can be easilydemostrated to the general public then they might be able to do it. They might be able to create disillusioned Wii owners by showing offsomething vastly better.  But I doubt they're capable of that.

Like I already said, people who bought a Wii knew exactly what they were getting with the system.  Eveyone who bought it knew the games from Nintendo would be their usual series along with the new Wii games.  The core gamers that bought it, got it for games like Mario Galaxy and Smash Bros.  These are also the same people that are making New Super Mario Bros Wii the huge success it is as well.  This is also the same group that will make Mario Galaxy 2 a huge success next year too.

This is why I say the disillusioned Wii owners you guys talk about don't really exist.  According to some of you, the people who are buying Mario Galaxy and Smash Bros are the same gamers who want violent M rated titles like Gears of War and Assassins Creed to appear on the Wii and will leave Nintendo if these types of games don't appear.  This is why I say this disillusioned audience doesn't exist because anyone that want's violent M rated titles knew from day 1 that the Wii would not be the system for them.  Not to mention this is the same audience that viewed the Gamecube, N64 and SNES (Sega does what Nintendon't anyone?) as kids systems and as a result hasn't supported Nintendo for way over the last decade.

To say that these people are Nintendo core audience is complete BS since the sales data for the NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube and Wii have shown that Nintendo's true audience since the beggining is the complete opposite.