Topic: Rate the last TV show you've seen

[Ian Sane]

  I tend to agree that Seinfeld had fairly fleshed out characters most of the time, but they often emphasized their selfish natures, and of course the last episode of the series hinged entirely on the fact that they were basically self-centered people.

Yeah, but what Seinfeld fan likes the last episode?  You might as well exclude it from the show.  You could never use it as an example because it does not represent what anyone actually watched Seinfeld for in the first place.  I will agree thought that it did tend to emphasize their selfishness for laughs.
 
Another aspect of the show that I feel really hits home is the isolation of the main cast from the rest of the world.  The four of them are a tight-knit group of friends and the rest of the world is on the outside.  Kramer is the only character who regularly appears to have friends outside the main cast (Newman, Mickie, Bob Sacamano).  The other three pretty much hang out exclusively with each other.  They date and have families but these other people are never part of the main group.  Jerry, Elaine and George see each other as mostly normal.  If anyone outside that group does, says or thinks things that are different from that norm they talk about it as if it is abnormal.  Hell, George pretty much talks about this in an episode Susan is starting to hang out with Elaine and how he doesn't want Independent George and Relationship George to collide.  Despite being his fiance, George doesn't regard Susan as part of the group and he knows their engagement is a huge mistake.
 
Real relationships are kind of like that.  There is a handful of people that really matter to you and represent what you consider to be normal.  Everyone else is outside that though once in a while you meet new people that enter in.  This is where private jokes come from.  When you encounter something unusual in your life, these are the people who talk to about it and their opinions on the matter shape what you consider normal and abnormal.  You save these people a spot in line at the expense of strangers.  It could be seen as somewhat selfish, particularly in a big picture "greater good" way.  But that's how life works.  Seinfeld gets that accurately.

[TJ Spyke]

What are you talking about? The last episode was one of the best in the series. It's a must see for any fan (unlike the first season, which had several terrible episodes).

[gbuell]

  I tend to agree that Seinfeld had fairly fleshed out characters most of the time, but they often emphasized their selfish natures, and of course the last episode of the series hinged entirely on the fact that they were basically self-centered people.

Yeah, but what Seinfeld fan likes the last episode?  You might as well exclude it from the show.

What does one's opinion of the episode have to do with anything? Disliking an episode doesn't magically banish it from existence. Either way, I thought it was a fine episode.

I agree with the rest of your post, but regardless of whether that's how "life works" or not, their social isolation only reinforces my point about their self-centeredness.

[Ian Sane]

I guess my argument is that if the Seinfeld cast is self-centered then so is pretty much everyone.

My point about the last episode is that because it is generally unpopular and came at the very end of the show it is not a good example to draw from.  I don't feel it is reflective of the overall series.

No last episode is really a good example because it is the one episode that can exist outside all others.  The writers can make whatever episode they want with no real repercussions if the viewers don't like it.  There is no audience to attract for next week.  You could kill off the main character or reveal that he's an alien or whatever batshit insane thing you want and it will have no effect on the show's continued success because there isn't one.

St. Elsewhere ended with the reveal that the "show" didn't exist at all and was entirely in the imagination of the one the characters.  Realistically it was a big "**** you" to anyone who was a fan of the show.  Odds are if such an episode aired anywhere else in the show's run it would have killed the viewership outright.  For shows where things went off the deep end and turned off the viewers (Roseanne is a great example of this) one would never use episodes from that time period as any example of the tone or feel of the show.  The last episode has special "immunity" of sorts from viewship killing disasters.  Thus the tone or feel of that one episode could be out of character with the rest of the show.

I always saw the Seinfeld finale as if the writers were telling us the characters we had loved for years were in fact unlikable jerks and that we were tools for liking them.  It's like the episode was written by people that didn't like the show and wanted to stick to everyone that did.  It's like turning on an episode of your favourite show and you just get an old man on a stool lecturing directly into the camera about how much of an idiot you are for watching the show.

[TJ Spyke]

the last episode is that because it is generally unpopular

What makes you think that? And if you don't like the end of St. Elsewhere because it turns out the show didn't exist, then you are gonna hate the end of Newhart because it does the exact same thing.

[gbuell]

I guess my argument is that if the Seinfeld cast is self-centered then so is pretty much everyone.

Then we are in complete agreement.

[BlackNMild2k1]

the last episode is that because it is generally unpopular

What makes you think that? And if you don't like the end of St. Elsewhere because it turns out the show didn't exist, then you are gonna hate the end of Newhart because it does the exact same thing.

Why would you spoil this when you know people are trying to get someone else interested in watching it?

[gbuell]

I'm going to modify that with spoiler tags, if no one minds.

[TJ Spyke]

My mistake, usually I am more careful with spoilers.

[Morari]

I always saw the Seinfeld finale as if the writers were telling us the characters we had loved for years were in fact unlikable jerks and that we were tools for liking them.  It's like the episode was written by people that didn't like the show and wanted to stick to everyone that did.  It's like turning on an episode of your favourite show and you just get an old man on a stool lecturing directly into the camera about how much of an idiot you are for watching the show.

Now that's hilarious. Seinfiled should have strived for more humor like that throughout it's run. It might have been worth watching then.

[MaryJane]

Actually, that sums up the whole series. They were a group of friends who had their own little inside jokes and nuances, and either messed with other people, each other, or got screwed over themselves and talked with their friends about how much people sucked.

They were all assholes, but they were funny. Curb Your Enthusiasm is built on that same premise except Larry David (creator of Seinfeld) is the only asshole.

[gbuell]

Larry David (creator of Seinfeld) is the only asshole.

That's far from true.

[Ian Sane]

In Curb Your Enthusiasm I often find myself siding with Larry.  Not always but quite often.  Where him and I differ is that I know when to pick my battles while he will be confrontational over the smallest things.  But a lot of Curb Your Enthusiam is Larry calling people on bullshit where you would think the same thing in the same situation only you wouldn't say anything and he does.

My brother loves the show but fails to realize that in a lot of ways he is Larry.  He resorts to the shouting match at the drop of a hat.  I've seen him in public getting into arguments with complete strangers who are telling him to go **** himself.  I don't think I've ever had any stranger ever yell and swear at me while for him this happens at least twice a year.

[ShyGuy]

These last couple of pages have been a window into Ian's psyche. It explains so much.

[MaryJane]

@Grant
Okay, his best friend whose name I forget is also an asshole, and so was Jerry when they were doing the reunion show. Larry is just the biggest asshole, he's also kind of an idiot, but those are both the point of the show, George from Seinfeld was based on Larry David; a "careful" with money, self-righteous, uncaring, idiot.

[ThePerm]

yeah the Jeff Green character is an asshole too

my two favorite sitcoms in the past couple of years is Curb and Sunny...both have Kaitlin Olson

[gbuell]

Have you guys forgotten about Susie (Jeff's wife)?

[Morari]

George from Seinfeld was based on Larry David; a "careful" with money, self-righteous, uncaring, idiot.

That doesn't mean he was based off of anyone... it just means he was the Jewish character.

[ThePerm]

George from Seinfeld was based on Larry David; a "careful" with money, self-righteous, uncaring, idiot.

That doesn't mean he was based off of anyone... it just means he was the Jewish character.

Trying to get banned?

[MaryJane]

Seriously, and Jerry was the Jewish character...

[Morari]

Seriously, and Jerry was the Jewish character...

George from Seinfeld was based on Larry David; a "careful" with money, self-righteous, uncaring, idiot.

That doesn't mean he was based off of anyone... it just means he was the Jewish character.

Trying to get banned?

What do you mean? The short fat guy was Jewish.

[gbuell]

And what relevance does that have in relation to the MaryJane sentence you quoted?

[TJ Spyke]

And the only religion ever mentioned about George was being Latvian Orthodox.

[gbuell]

Wikipedia is amazing:

Although Estelle's ethnicity is never mentioned on the show, both Larry David and Jason Alexander considered her to be Jewish. David referred to George as "half-Jewish" in an interview [1], and Alexander stated that he had no fixed ideas about George's ethnicity until the casting of Harris as his mother, and said that "she can't be anything but Jewish." [2] In "The Strike," Frank Costanza refers to the genesis of Festivus as springing from an occasion in which he was buying a Christmas gift for George, showing that Christmas was celebrated in the household, likely by Frank who is Italian (although it has become a secular holiday).

[TJ Spyke]

True, but I meant that it was never actually said on the show what other religion he had besides the one he convert to.