Topic: Super Mario World - RFN RetroActive Discussion Thread

[Jonnyboy117]

This is the official forum thread for discussing the winner of our recent poll, Super Mario World. Please make sure your posts are on topic. Comments from this thread may be quoted on Radio Free Nintendo during our RetroActive segments.

Super Mario World is available in many formats, including Virtual Console for 800 points. We encourage all podcast listeners to play it with fresh eyes and post your thoughts here!

[Bboy]

Well, I just downloaded SMW and it seems harder than I remember. Mario seems slipperier, and most of my deaths are just sliding off a platform. The fact that I'm trying to play with a Gamecube controller doesn't help. Thank god for the save state, because I never like having to replay levels in between save points.

One thing that I've notice that is different from other sidescrolling Mario's was that it seem less linear. In other Mario games, rarely do I go left, but I find myself doing so to get some of the dragon coins, or in some cases, just to find the way through the level.

But, I'm definitely having a lot of fun with it, Yoshi somehow just makes it more fun, I'm looking forward to him in the next two Mario games.

[noname2200]

I'm starting to remember why this game was my least favorite 2D Mario.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a fun and well-designed game. It has some variety, and it has 99% of platformers beat. The problem is that, compared to the NES Mario games, World just seems to lack imagination. The first Mario had an Italian plumber stopming his way through an army of evil turtles in order to free a land of mushroom-people. The second "Mario" game was a trippy journey through a dreamworld. Mario 3 had a ton of bizzare power-ups and themes. By contrast, World just feels like a by-the-numbers platformer.

The fact that it released relatively close to Mario 3 only heightens the disappointment. Mario 3 let you turn into a racoon who could fly or turn into a statute, a frog who swims in water and awkwardly hops on land, or a turtle who can throw hammers and duck into his shell for protection. You could even hop into a giant mechanical shoe and literally stomp your way through enemies.

 Mario World replaces these with a cape and a ridable dinosaur, the latter of which almost never really adds anything (although I always take perverse pleasure in making him jump into lava. Seeing Yoshi slowly sink into a river of fiery death always makes me smile). I actually think the cape was a good power-up, as with enough skill it lets you fly through a whole level and dive-bomb enemies, but it still feels less imaginative than Mario 3.

The levels are also a big letdown compared to Mario 3. 3 led you through worlds where the enemies were four times your size, where you explored stages made of clouds, where the whole place was made of pipes and piranha plants, and where you found out that Bowser had a very threatening military, complete with a batallions of tanks, a massive air force, and a complete navy. Every world in Mario 3 had something new, creative, and different to offer, so progressing through the game always feels fresh.

World offers a series of places named after various foods, but which are mostly indistinguishable from one another. I can't recall seeing a single donut or other pastry in the Donut Plains, someone replaced the Soda Lake with water, and the Chocolate Island simply takes the prior levels and replaces all the colors with brown (which shows that Nintendo was once again years ahead of its time).

In this recent playthrough I've only just reached the Forest of Illusion, so I may be forgetting something from later in the game, but I can't recall there being all that much diversity or imagination in any of the levels outside of the Star Road. I can still remember several levels from each of the NES games, but despite replaying much of World just a few hours earlier, I'm hard pressed to remember anything special about any of them; World's levels don't leave any particular impression on me.

I know I'm coming off like I hate the game. I don't; I actually think it's a very well crafted and enjoyable platformer. But at the same time, I have to say that it feels more like a lost opportunity than any of the other Mario games. It feels like Nintendo had spent most of its ideas on Mario 3, and the small window between 3 and World left the latter with a lot less imagination. I'll keep playing to see if this impression holds up, but after almost twenty years I don't think my opinion is going to change much.

[TJ Spyke]

I will be more specific in future posts, this one is off the top of my head.

Bboy, are you playing with a Classic Controller or GameCube controller? The control problems for me were when I tried playing it with a GameCube controller, that is what finally convinced me to buy a Classic Controller.

I have beaten this game many times, and it is still the best 2D Mario game ever made and one of my favorite games period. The special world alone are some of the best stages in the Mario seires. The only stage I hate is the one where you have to get get across the stage by floating over it and collecting several P-Clouds. That damn stage was so difficult that on the SNES I always had to use a Game Genie to beat it.

The final battle against Bowser was more creative and fun that SMB3's lame "stand still, then move right when Bowser jumps and repeat ad nausem" strategy.

Yoshi added a lot of fun to the game and I loved getting the different powers for him. I thought the yellow power was always worthless (that's the one that creates a little stomp when he lands). Blue was the best since it let you fly with Yoshi. The cape provided a lot of fun with Mario, Donut Plains 1 is so much fun to just get a running start and then glide over the entire stage with him.

The bonus stage in the game where you have to hit the blocks to get 1-ups and items was fun, although I didn't like the in-stage one where you had to hit rows of blocks to get 1-ups.

It is such a thrill when you finally unlock every exit in the game and knowing you beat everything.

I love SMB3, but SMW beats it in every possible way to me (with the exception of powerups for Mario). I don't know if New Super Mario Bros. Wii will change it, but Super Mario World is the best 2D Mario game ever made IMO.

[Bboy]

It reminds me of a scrolling shooter, because you can have, for example, Yoshi, a power for Yoshi, a fire flower, and a cape in reserve, and then, in a devastating sequence, lose them all, and be tiny Mario, relying totally on platforming skill. I think what Super Mario World does well is that the levels are designed as such that I sometimes enjoy just trying to get through them without any power ups, just pure level design and platforming skill. And the great thing is that the level design holds up without any of the cool gimmicks added on, something that, for example, I think that New Super Mario Bros. on DS couldn't do. I always felt like it wasn't as fun without at least a fire flower. There is that to a certain extent in SMW, where I feel like I need to use Yoshi, but when you get to a ghost house or castle, and are forced not to use Yoshi, the level design still shines through.

BTW, TJ Spyke, I'm using Gamecube controller. But I've figured out a good way to do it now, using my index finger for the Y button and my thumb for A and B. The GC D-pad is killing my thumb, though.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I just popped this in for a few minutes. For anyone playing on an original SNES and HDTV, I found that this title is VERY sensitive to input lag, so if you're finding Mario to be ambiguously slipperier than you remember, use an old-school TV.

While I agree with Noname that in general Super Mario World lacks the creative locales and power-ups found in SMB3, the level designs themselves are far more intricate than those of SMB3. I suspect in part due to limitations of the hardware, SMB3 had very  clever and memorable levels, but they were very short. Nintendo was able to expand upon several ideas in SMW, such as having multiple, hidden exits, often requiring puzzle-solving or skillful use of the cape and/or Yoshi.

One shortcoming of most Mario games is that exploration is often rewarded merely with coins and one-ups; as a kid I really derived great satisfaction from discovering a second gate by flying under the first gate on Cheese Bridge. Star Road and the Special World really buck the trend in Mario level progression.

One thing I had forgotten about were the speaker boxes. SMW was the first time Nintendo really tried to incorporate a help system into a Mario game, and I must say it feels a little crude--though they were wise enough to make it optional. It certainly doesn't get in the way, but it's a little tacked-on.

I'll probably have more thoughts as I play more of the game.

[Dasmos]

My problem with SMB3 was its level design. Sure the levels had variety, but variety very rarely existed in the same level. Each level had it's own gimmick then it moved on. SMW is a much more complete and complex game in terms of level design.

Again, sure there were more power-ups in SMB3, but most of them were largely useless or just found in a single level (e.g. Kuribo's Shoe, which has to be the most useless item of all-time, but still awesome). SMW kept the power-ups simple, but added much more depth by having fewer.

[GoldenPhoenix]

SMB3 is still my favorite game of all time. While SMW is fantastic I just never could get into it like SMB3. One thing that bothered me was the lack of power ups. Sure some of the power ups in SMB3 were hard to get but that is what made them special. What it did was make you experiment with them to see what each did and how it changed how the game was played. It also added some unique challenges such as beating the airship levels with a particular power up to see what would change in the King's thank you speech.

Not to mention I can only think of one item that was useless, the frog suit was great for swimming, the tanooki suit was great for getting out of a tough jam, not to mention it could kill enemies like thwomps or the flames. The hammer bros. suit was great defensively and was tremendously powerful offensively. Other items like the cloud were good if you wanted to skip a stage, and the anchor was useful if you didn't clear a straight path to the ship and you die. Perhaps the one item that I hardly used was the music box. Beyond that every item had a useful purpose and required some thought as to where the best place place to use it would be. It wasn't like SMW where you could always refill your items at that secret hut, instead many were limited and you had to ration them making for a unique gameplay experience that sadly was dropped in future Mario games.

It seems to be a lie that SMW had more consistent stage themes, every world in SMB3 had a theme it built the levels around, as did SMW. The trouble was that that the themes in SMW were so similar to each other. Now with that said the levels were well designed in SMW especially when it came to placing the multiple exits. I remember how for the longest time the torpedo ted in the end credits alluded me to the point that I thought they didn't really exist, then I FINALLY found how to get to them and was extremely ecstatic. Though on the flip side the secrets in SMB3 were pretty amazing as well with the whistles, hidden items such as the anchor, mysterious coin ships, and just unique areas that were hidden in each level. SMB3 used its space brilliantly. Also to criticize individual stages in SMB3 for lacking variety in themselves is asinine at best considering that most were quite compact while the stages in SMW tended to be pretty long so variety was almost a requirement, and even then this "variety" statement seems subjective at best.

Bosses were something that I always preferred in SMB3, I found them much more challenging except for the final boss. When it comes to Bowser I think it is a toss up between the final battles, I found both creative in their own way not to mention fun.

Enemy designs were good in both games though, and sadly it appears Nintendo has lost that. My only complaint is the goombas in SMW, I mean they look like walking ball things and you can't even squash them? One area that I think SMB3 achieved better was enemies that would impact the stage itself, whether it was Boss Bass or the Sun. Not to mention the fact that SMB3 was the place where some of Mario's most popular enemies were created like Chain-Chomps (which had an awesome Easter egg if you let them keep jumping at you), thwomps, boo and others. Many of the enemies in SMW never were compelling enough to carry over to other games.

Also anyone that criticizes the Kuribo Shoe is being silly. That was created for that stage alone by Miyamoto, and I give him props for not abusing it, something few games can claim.

To conclude I found SMW to be extremely easy as well while SMB3 was far more challenging, but challenging in a GOOD way. I had far more satisfaction beating SMB3 then I had completing SMW. Though when it is all said and done I'll be replaying both games for a very long time.

[Bboy]

When I saw first saw a Sumo Bro. (fat koopa that stomps and makes the ground erupt), on this playthrough my first thought was, "Goron!" from Zelda. Weird, I wonder if it was an inspiration for Gorons in Ocarina of Time, probably just a coincidence though.

Why didn't that guy make it into any other Mario games? But for the most part I agree, GoldenPhoenix, the enemy design was better in SMB3, particularly the Goombas.

Also, just beat Ludwig, and he has to be the smartest villain in any game, because there aren't any tricks to getting through all his traps.

[GoldenPhoenix]

When I look at SMW and SMB3 I think the similarities of both games are pretty small. They tried to do different things within the platforming genre, which is sadly overlooked by many with SMW getting criticized for being too much of the same. While SMB3 was pretty the epitome of the twitch platforming genre, SMW took a more adventure-esque approach to the genre with the branching paths. Not to mention it provided you with more options when it came to beating the game since there is an easy path to Bowser if you choose to take it. So in many ways SMW was a more open ended platformer while SMB3 was vastly more linear.

So really I think SMW in many ways gets far to little credit when it comes to what it did for the genre, and isn't really SMB3+ but a different type of platformer in many ways.

[Pandareus]

Before I replayed this game for RetroActive, I tried to remember the things about it that blew my 10 year old mind when I first played it: the various mode 7 effects like the pixelation of the screen when entering a level or a door, YOSHI!, the keyhole door engulfing Mario, the gigantic map... This game was really impressive, back in the day.

Slightly less so today. But I still appreciate how it evolved the series. As someone else mentioned, secret doors opening new levels are a much, much better reward for exploration than coins and lives. And the cape is a better power-up than a raccoon tail since it requires skill instead of just a runway.

SMW had a number of improvements that often contributed to making it an easier game, for instance the ability to save, or to replay a level, making racking up lives even easier in a game that perhaps gave you too many to begin with.

Other changes made it a much friendlier game than its predecessors. The bricks were gone, instead you had blocks that spun before becoming solid again, so you couldn't screw yourself out of reaching a high power-up. And Yoshi acted as a shield of sort, giving you essentially one more health point in addition to the power-up you could hold in a box.

All of this makes the game way more friendly to exploration. I have to agree with GoldenPhoenix, this title is way more adventure-y than its predecessors. Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 64 evolved further in that direction, before Galaxy brought back some degree of linearity and twitchiness.

[Dasmos]

lol Yoshi's Island wasn't linear? I don't know what game you were playing.

[Bboy]

So I think that you probably could distinguish SMB3 and SMW as a twitch platformer vs. an exploration platformer. So it really would end the argument as just the basis of taste.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I think it's unfair to shoehorn SMB3 as a "twitch" platformer. There were some very puzzle-based levels in worlds 6 and 7 in SMB3, as well as little secret rooms and the like. It's just that SMW was able to expand upon these ideas.

EDIT: I had forgotten how aesthetically pleasing this game is. While there isn't a high degree of variety in locales, as discussed above, the environments present are surprisingly detailed and tangible, with tasteful parallax scrolling, interesting "textures," and crisp, cheerful music. (I suspect Nintendo made a prudent decision to make few distinct but interesting locales due to time constraints.) They really put New Super Mario Bros.' prerendered, sterile environments to shame.  I last played this game a few years ago on the GBA, and I think a lot of the game's aural and visual appeal was lost in the transition.

Another observation I've made is that SMW has the most highly-integrated overworld of any Mario game. Not only does the map reflect the branching level progression, but it physically places every level and every "world" in Dinosaur Land, often with recognizable landmarks. SMB3 also did this, but not so comprehensively. Subsequent Mario games have pretty much forgone this level of complexity, possibly because it's a lot of work. Yoshi's Island was linear, and the 3D Mario games' hubs are almost completely removed from the levels themselves. NSMB half-heatedly brings back branching paths. Ironically, the Wario Land series has kept the SMW school of level progression alive.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think it's unfair to shoehorn SMB3 as a "twitch" platformer. There were some very puzzle-based levels in worlds 6 and 7 in SMB3, as well as little secret rooms and the like. It's just that SMW was able to expand upon these ideas.

I wouldn't shoehorn it into that, but it is closer to that sort of gameplay style then SMW. SMB3 was challenging because of some very twitchy segments. The fact of the matter is that SMW and SMB3 are much more different in what they try to achieve then people give them credit for. It is kind of funny to think that both games were most likely being made at the same time!

[Pandareus]

Speaking of Dinosaur Land, someone has to mention how cool it was to see the stages and enemies of SMW integrated so well in Super Mario Kart. The moles, the ghost houses... it added so much to both games, IMO.

As for SMB3 being a twitch platformer, not completely. We're talking relatively, here. Compared to SMW, it is. Compared to SMB, it's not. But Mario platformers have always featured a good dose of secrets and exploration from the start.

lol Yoshi's Island wasn't linear? I don't know what game you were playing.

I admit my memory's a bit fuzzy, it's been a while. Perhaps because I always aimed for 100% completion in every level, it didn't feel linear to me. It sure as hell was a twitch platformer, though. Or was it? I need to replay it.

[Dasmos]

lol Yoshi's Island wasn't linear? I don't know what game you were playing.

I admit my memory's a bit fuzzy, it's been a while. Perhaps because I always aimed for 100% completion in every level, it didn't feel linear to me. It sure as hell was a twitch platformer, though. Or was it? I need to replay it.

The level progression was as linear as you can get, but I'll admit that the levels weren't always that way. To get 100% in the levels it did sometimes take a lot of exploration.

Also while playing this today I discovered something that I don't think I have ever seen before in all of my play times with this game. I was in the Cookie Mountain stage with Blue Yoshi and I was just flying about and eating stuff, then I ate one of those berries and an egg popped out of Yoshi containing a smiley cloud, it started to float about and drop smile coins or something. I dunno, it's just strange that I had never come across this before. It was just like years ago after I played through the game, after 5 or 6 years, when I came across my first 3-Up. I guess I wasn't as good of a gamer as a kid as I thought!

[TJ Spyke]

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island was linear. You went from one stage to the next and in the exact order Nintendo wanted you too. You couldn't pick to skip certain levels like you could with Super Mario Bros. 3 or Super Mario World.

[Pandareus]

Well I wasn't referring to the stage select screen, but to the levels themselves. Anyway, forget I said anything. Clearly my experience with the game is different than yours. I remember having to scour huge levels and explore every nook and cranny to get that 100pts score.

[gojira]

When I first saw Mario World win RetroActive I was a little disappointed.  I've played this game a thousand times and I couldn't really think of what I could say about it.

But I've been replaying the game on my SNES.  And the thing that stands out for me is the puzzle aspect to the levels.  All of the multiple exits to the levels usually require extra thought to figure them out.  And I love that aspect to the game. 

Another thing is the abundance of extra lives.  I had 30 by the time I beat the first boss, around 70 by the second and basically maxed out by the third.  But if you save and quit you'll start with five again. 

Also the boss level music is fantastic.

[noname2200]

My problem with SMB3 was its level design. Sure the levels had variety, but variety very rarely existed in the same level. Each level had it's own gimmick then it moved on. SMW is a much more complete and complex game in terms of level design.

This is true, but I think you're taking a positive as a negative. I DO enjoy the longer levels of World, but at the same time the fact that 3 kept everything tight and focused helped to make progressing feel fresh; you only spend three or four minutes on each gimmick, after which you are rewarded with a completely different gimmick. This helps with the pacing, as it means that I get a few minutes of creativity, and then I usually get to try something completely different. This isn't the case with World: because many of the levels share the same tricks, the levels start to feel too similar for my tastes.

If I had to come up with an analogy, I'd say that 3 is akin to a buffet where you can take small samples of a ton of dishes, while World is closer to ordering the T-Bone Steak; tasty, but once you dig in things aren't going to change much.

One shortcoming of most Mario games is that exploration is often rewarded merely with coins and one-ups; as a kid I really derived great satisfaction from discovering a second gate by flying under the first gate on Cheese Bridge. Star Road and the Special World really buck the trend in Mario level progression.

I agree that finding an entirely new level is probably the best way to reward exploration, but I think you're selling the other Mario games short. In the first one, exploring netted you new lives, which in that game were otherwise as rare as splinters from the True Cross: they meant more than they do in any other Mario game. There were also plenty of warps, which can't be understated. Mario 2 often gave you more lives or health, as well as level warps of its own. Since 2 is a pretty challenging game, all of those were more helpful than World's rewards.

 Mario 3 had extra lives buried in nooks and crannies, which admittedly were less valuable than in the original, but it still took a skilled player to keep their life count in the double-digits. Exploration was also how you found those rare suits, flutes, clouds, and other power-ups that made progressing further that much easier.

 I think you're getting spoiled by World's extra-life system, where you get a 1-up for walking at least ten feet, to remember just how precious a reward that green mushroom could be. While I actually prefer that extra lives be plentiful, and I kind of hope that future Mario games altogether abandon the pretense that running out of lives means anything, the rewards in the NES Marios were very well tailored for their respective games.

Having said all that, I did like exploring more in World than in 1 or 3 (but still less than in 2).

[anand]

Super Mario World, eh? Bold choice, people... bold choice. Haha, I'm being an ass in my first post.

Anylord, what do you guys think about the spin jump? I feel it's kind of symbolic of the overstuffed nature of SMW, compared to the lean, mean SMB3. I don't remember it ever being very necessary, except for spinning off of Yoshi. Does anyone have the cartoon that references that, by the way? It's classic.

Anyway, I love SMW, but I still prefer SMB3, because, in two-player mode, you can prevent the other player from ever getting a turn with enough classic Mario Bros. skill.

Yeah.

[Pale]

Well I gave this sucker a download today and played through the first set of stages in two player mode with my wife.  It came flooding back to me even though it's been years since I played it and I started to remember the stages like it was yesterday.

My wife was the complete opposite.  She never played Mario games.  She couldn't even really get the hang of the "run fast" button.  She lasted under 10 seconds on almost every level and was quite frustrated.

I'm determined to get her to relaxe and learn how to play these games.   It's funny to me because she enjoys Little Big Planet and can control sackboys fine, yet all the Mario-taught platform players complain that the sackboys are too floaty and imprecise.

I hope I'll be able to play another world with her tomorrow.

[gojira]

Anylord, what do you guys think about the spin jump? I feel it's kind of symbolic of the overstuffed nature of SMW, compared to the lean, mean SMB3. I don't remember it ever being very necessary, except for spinning off of Yoshi.

I think the spin move was most likely born from the devs coming up with actions for the extra buttons.  Same with the L and R level scroll feature.  Which is fine by me since the spin move was integrated pretty thoroughly in the game.  Yeah it was used to jump off Yoshi.  But it was also a second type of jump attack, kind of a pre-butt stomp.  It also made Mario invulnerable against certain enemies and hazards.  So I used it a lot.

[gojira]