Topic: Sony's secret weapon is PS3 Slim... Jim?

[Mop it up]

I like how TJ Spyke ended his post with "the people complaining about the Z-Button were especially annoying as I can't see how anyone would have a problem pressing it" and then Chozo Ghost's post starts with "My only complaint about the GC controller is the Z button."
I just found that to be rather humourous for some reason...

[broodwars]

The GC  Z-button's problem wasn't that it was up on the shoulders.  It was that the damn thing was tiny and didn't press far in so it actually hurt my hand to use.

[Ian Sane]

you never hear people complaining about their D-Pads

I thought this was one of the big complaints about Playstation controllers.  The splite d-pad makes it easier to get blisters.

I don't like the Sony controllers because they place the D-pad before the thumbstick, which if you ask me is a very backwards thinking because virtually every game nowadays relies on the analog stick instead of the D-pad.

I used to think this but I now think d-pad centric is the way to go.  I've noticed that playing a d-pad game with an off-center d-pad is a HUGE pain in the ass but playing an analog stick game with an off-center stick is, while not as good as having the stick in the primary position, is only somewhat annoying and is overall much easier to adapt to.  Ideally whatever the game needs is what you would prefer to have in the main slot but moving your thumb over to control the analog stick is less sucky than doing the same for the d-pad, so d-pad wins by default.  After all the second analog stick on most controllers is always off-center and no one has a problem with that.

Regarding the Cube controller, it is easily the most ergonomic controller I've ever used.  But it was still really flawed.  The z-button sucked because it was hard to push and unlike the rest of the controller wasn't egonomically placed.  The d-pad was small and pretty much completely useless as an actual d-pad.  The reasons for those are obvious.  Nintendo themselves admitted that both parts were put on at the request of third parties.  So Nintendo just threw them on without putting any real effort or thought into their design.  It's obvious that the shitty d-pad was picked because the GBA used the same one so they would only have to make one (which in retrospect provided no real cost savings since they later changed the GBA d-pad with the SP and thus had to make two anyway).

I also didn't care for the button layout.  Yeah it was easy to locate what button was where but it was against the conventional standards (that Nintendo themselves invented in the first place) and that made some third party games control like crap because they were designed for the PS2 or Xbox controller.  Why have the oddball controller when it provides such minor improvements at best and potentially causes control issues for games not designed specifically with it in mind?  Nintendo touted the
button layout as being more intuitive for players as if figuring out what button is what is a HUGE obstacle for gamers.  It seemed like Nintendo was providing a solution for a fictional problem they themselves made up.  With that and their justification for making the Wii controller look like a TV remote you get the feeling they REALLY don't give the general public much credit.   Somehow we all can drive cars but having face buttons in a diamond shape is just TOO DAMN CONFUSING.

Nintendo has a tendency to do things for themselves without thinking outside their little bubble and the Cube controller was reflective of that.  It was amazing for what Nintendo wanted to do but for anything else it was restrictive.

[Plugabugz]

Somehow we all can drive cars but having face buttons in a diamond shape is just TOO DAMN CONFUSING.

I was in a car that had buttons on the dash, centre console, underneath the gear switch, on the windows AND the steering wheel.  Wow.

[TJ Spyke]

Unless you are using your middle finger to press the R-button, I don't see how pressing the Z-button is hard on the GameCube controller. It takes no more effort than the shoulder buttons on the PlayStation and Xbox controllers.

[Stratos]

Unless you are using your middle finger to press the R-button, I don't see how pressing the Z-button is hard on the GameCube controller. It takes no more effort than the shoulder buttons on the PlayStation and Xbox controllers.

I never had much of an issue with the Z button as well. Then I realized, how many games used it at all, let alone enough, to get used to it. Maybe I don't mind it that much because I rarely used it in games.

[Mop it up]

Super Smash Brothers Melee would be a little easier if it weren't for the GCN controller's analogue L/R buttons and stubby Z button. Whoever says the placement of the Z button is ergonomically designed clearly doesn't have dainty hands, plus the spring is very dull. I also don't think it is possible to press both Z and R at the same time unless you use two fingers, which is pretty awkward.

Were there even any games which used the analogue function of the L/R buttons? I can't think of any besides Luigi's Mansion and SSBMelee, the latter of which was hindered by it...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Rogue Squadrons and Burnouts.

[KDR_11k]

I always saw the Z button as the replacement to the select button.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It was my throw button in Melee.

Now the GameCube controller is obsolete.

[Ian Sane]

Were there even any games which used the analogue function of the L/R buttons?

Super Mario Sunshine.  It and Rogue Leader are the only games I can think of that used the little digital click.  Neat idea but realistically you probably could have done the same thing with something like the classic controller's L/R buttons (which I'm assuming are analog since they have such a squishy feel).

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

digital click =/= analog

The Star Wars Rogue Skwod games, Mario Sunshine, Burnout 2 used the analog triggers for actual ANALOG pressure-sensitive input.

Games people easily forget that used the Digital Click include:

Eternal Darkness, Wind Waker, Metroid Primes 1 and 2, Battalion Wars

all for the same function:  switching locked-on targets

[Ian Sane]

Games people easily forget that used the Digital Click include:

Eternal Darkness, Wind Waker, Metroid Primes 1 and 2, Battalion Wars

all for the same function:  switching locked-on targets

Those used the digital click?  I just figured they required you to push the button which would logically mean the digital click would be pushed as well.  Couldn't you have done those with a digital button?  In my mind if it didn't use both the analog input and the click then it didn't really use the click, it was just pushing the button.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I never ever ever clicked on the triggers all the way down unless I needed to use the click, which I was aware of ahead of time cuz Control Schemes are one of the first things I familiarize myself with when trying any new game.  It saved me some finger cramping since I didn't have to apply so much pressure all the time.

The rationale for target-switching was to allow you to maintain your temporary lock-strafe (combat) orientation as you switch between targets.  Twilight Princess on Wii only halfway remedies this by requiring a quick tap of the Z-trigger; by letting go of the button you risk a brief disorietation (camera & controls) since the control scheme changes for an instant (strafing vs. simple directional running).

I found the click helpful in the first two Metroid Primes, since the first person view only highlighted the sluggishness of the "tank" stick control.  MP3 and BWii don't need this anymore since the IR Pointer allows you to lead to a target before locking on.

[Mop it up]

I'd trade all of that to not have the analogue L/R buttons hinder SSBMelee.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

They never hindered it.  Something wrong on your end?

[Mop it up]

You have to press the L/R buttons all of the way down until it clicks in order to use the air dodge, which is pretty annoying. The same goes for using the Power Shield technique (deflecting a projectile), and if you didn't press the button in fast enough then you'd raise the shield too early and it wouldn't work.

The shield's size was also dependent on how far down you pressed the button; the further you pressed it in, the smaller your shield would be and the faster it would shrink. There was no advantage for having the smaller shield so it made no sense.

[mac<censored>]

you never hear people complaining about their D-Pads

I thought this was one of the big complaints about Playstation controllers.  The splite d-pad makes it easier to get blisters.

Yeah, the PS dpad is one of the most awful out there -- I had very painful experiences back in the PS1 days.

What's simply bizarre is that Sony has retained this horrible, horrible, dpad, in the sweet spot on all their controllers, for 15 years.  Even worse, Sony made exactly the same idiotic control mistakes with the PSP (which is a new system with a different control scheme, so much less affected by compatibility concerns) -- an awful dpad, in the "main position", and an awkwardly-placed analog controller seemingly tossed in at the last moment as an afterthought.

These things have convinced me that Sony simply doesn't understand controllers, or their importance for video-gaming.   That's pretty pathetic for one of the biggest video-game manufacturers on the planet.  Given SCE and Kutaragi's historical obsession with flash and marketing over substance, though, it's not all that surprising I suppose.

I used to think this but I now think d-pad centric is the way to go.   I've noticed that playing a d-pad game with an off-center d-pad is a HUGE pain in the ass but playing an analog stick game with an off-center stick is, while not as good as having the stick in the primary position, is only somewhat annoying and is overall much easier to adapt to.  Ideally whatever the game needs is what you would prefer to have in the main slot but moving your thumb over to control the analog stick is less sucky than doing the same for the d-pad, so d-pad wins by default.  After all the second analog stick on most controllers is always off-center and no one has a problem with that.

Given that like 95% of games are analogue centric -- and playing dpad-centric games on Sony's insane dpad is such an awful experience -- that's a very unconvincing argument.

Better to simply have separate controllers available for those people who are really into dpad-centric games, and optimize for the overwhelmingly common case of analogue-centric games.

I think the GC controller is my favorite overall; it has its flaws (z button), but in general, it's a fantasticaly ergonomic controller.  You can really tell from using it how much research and care they put into its design (pretty much the polar opposite of Sony's controllers).

[Mikintosh]

You have to press the L/R buttons all of the way down until it clicks in order to use the air dodge, which is pretty annoying. The same goes for using the Power Shield technique (deflecting a projectile), and if you didn't press the button in fast enough then you'd raise the shield too early and it wouldn't work.

The shield's size was also dependent on how far down you pressed the button; the further you pressed it in, the smaller your shield would be and the faster it would shrink. There was no advantage for having the smaller shield so it made no sense.

I thought the larger shell was weaker, but I could be wrong. Anyway, I've never had any problem doing air dodging, which is the only "pro" technique I bother to use. And someone above was saying they couldn't press R and Z at the same time...but why would you ever have to do this?

[Ian Sane]

Given that like 95% of games are analogue centric -- and playing dpad-centric games on Sony's insane dpad is such an awful experience -- that's a very unconvincing argument.

The fact that Sony's d-pad sucks is irrelevent to the discussion.  I'm not talking about Sony's controller as much as controllers in general and what design would make sense if you were in charge of designing one from scratch.  For me d-pad centric is the way to go and obviously the d-pad should be comfortable.  But I think a good controller should be compatible with as many types of games as possible and analog centric doesn't do that.  To me digital vs. analog is a lot like 2D vs. 3D.  Neither one is better and the newer design isn't a replacement for the old.  Some types of games work best with a d-pad.

I just find that if the d-pad isn't in the center then it's almost completely useless.  If you're going to put on the controller in the first place you have to make it useful.

Though I'm quite certain that Sony is just sticking with the tried and true because it worked for so long.  They just did a real lousy copy of the SNES controller and then became the market leader so they probably figured "why mess with this?"

[Chozo Ghost]

The fact that Sony's d-pad sucks is irrelevent to the discussion.  I'm not talking about Sony's controller as much as controllers in general and what design would make sense if you were in charge of designing one from scratch.  For me d-pad centric is the way to go and obviously the d-pad should be comfortable.  But I think a good controller should be compatible with as many types of games as possible and analog centric doesn't do that.  To me digital vs. analog is a lot like 2D vs. 3D.  Neither one is better and the newer design isn't a replacement for the old.  Some types of games work best with a d-pad.

Doesn't this make the N64 controller the best of both worlds? It can be either Analog stick centric or D-pad centric depending on how you hold it.

[NWR_insanolord]

Combining the three-prong layout of the N64 controller with the button layout, second analog stick and ergonomic design of the GameCube pad would create an amazing controller.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

And it'd have 6 prongs and 4 sticks.

[Chozo Ghost]

What's simply bizarre is that Sony has retained this horrible, horrible, dpad, in the sweet spot on all their controllers, for 15 years.  Even worse, Sony made exactly the same idiotic control mistakes with the PSP (which is a new system with a different control scheme, so much less affected by compatibility concerns) -- an awful dpad, in the "main position", and an awkwardly-placed analog controller seemingly tossed in at the last moment as an afterthought.

I think the reason for the lack of imagination or innovation in Sony's controllers probably has a lot to do with video games being a major after thought to the company. They started out making TVs and VCRs and crap like that, and that's what drives their thinking even today. They really shouldn't be in the video gaming industry at all, and the reason they are is because of their work with Nintendo on that SNES CD addon which never came about, and this was repackaged and released as the PS1 which was successful because of good timing, luck, and stupidity of Nintendo and other companies in that era. So they really shouldn't be in the industry at all, and their dominance of being the market leader has been a position they never really deserved because its all based on ripping off Nintendo's ideas and being lucky.

But I would beat that the Sony executives don't actually even play video games, not even their own. They are more concerned about Blu-ray and other consumer electronics and the PS3 was just a means to an end, with that end being Blu-ray winning over HD-DVD. Well, they've achieved that end (unfortunately) but the cost was them dropping from 1st place to 3rd place in the console wars.

But I don't think they really even care... Sony treats its fans as cows for them to milk off of, which is also true of Nintendo somewhat, but at least Nintendo is completely game oriented and actually invests in innovative control methods and game concepts. Every Nintendo system has seen a different controller setup than the last. When the Wii 2 comes out you can be sure that it will feature some new controller method, but as for the PS4 its probably going to be the same boring old Dualshock/SIXAXIS piece of crap that they've stuck with since they ripped the idea off of the SNES.

[Chozo Ghost]

And it'd have 6 prongs and 4 sticks.

Aren't buttons outdated anyway? Why not replace every button with a stick? :p

And instead of D-pads we could have Analog pads which would be made of 4 tiny analog nubs joined together into a pad.