Author Topic: The "Game Overthinker" Thread  (Read 20325 times)

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Offline Stratos

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2009, 03:23:39 PM »
I'll letting the video buffer. But on the matter of videogame stereotypes, I know this is something Miyamoto has wanted to dispell since the 90's. He hates the image of the kid alone in the dark staring at a TV/computer screen. WiiSpeak is actually one of many direct attempts to change it because it isn't just one person alone and isolated but it can be a group thing with the whole family talking to other people. Also Wii getting people up off the coutch and playing together breaks up the preconceived notions.

Videos loaded, now to watch it.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2009, 03:52:45 PM »
I'm not sure how I feel about it.

I honestly don't have an issue with censorship to a point. There are things that should only be sold or distributed to adults. GTA should not be played by children. Where is this magic age of 'maturety'? It varies from person to person and that is why parents have to be the one to make a judgment call there. The problem is that many parents do not know how to make that call or will not be active enough to make it.

I have a theory that most of the people who whine about videogame laws that would enforce the ESRB ratings are actually minors who do not want to lose their access to mature content.

A good thing to note, though, is that of all the different forms of media (games, movies, music, etc.) videogames are the most stricktly enforced in stores.

I do also have an issue with his catagorizing of people as 'believers' in a dreogative way and stating that there is no evidence to violence being harmful to kids. There have been studies that show kids can be influenced by violence they see. Many children struggle to differentiate between fact and fiction in their minds. Many child-psychologists agree that there are things children should not be exposed to until they are older. I read a really enlightening article about how our culture is constantly pushing for children to 'grow up' and adults are pushing children to be exposed more and more to mature themes and ideas. Adults seem to think kids can process matters in the same way adults do when they really do not and most likley cannot.

I'm not saying watching violence directly causes kids to do violence, but it does impact them.
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Offline Rize

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2009, 02:54:11 PM »
Not the greatest, but I still watched all his vids anyway.  Thanks for the link.

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2009, 05:07:59 PM »
BUMP!

Since he won the Screw Attack contest the Game Overthinker will now host his videos on Screw Attack. His newest video is about how game developers are over complicating controls and uses the Bionic Command game to explain it:
http://www.screwattack.com/TGO/Ep26
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2009, 07:43:26 PM »
So will he still be posting vids on youtube or is it something like the AVGN where you have to wait ages for the newest one to hit youtube?
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Offline Stratos

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2009, 07:51:53 PM »
Just click the link Pap posts and watch it there. Doesn't change anything that I can see.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2009, 08:08:43 PM »
There is a reason why I am asking this Stratos.

My CPU doesn't have speakers at the moment. And my Wii can't play the Screwattack video.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 09:54:04 PM by Maxi »
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Offline Stratos

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2009, 08:21:10 PM »
No headphones?

I might have a spare set of phones lying around if you want them.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2009, 09:21:54 PM »
I find it rather ridiculous that with all his bluster he never points out that the developers of Bionic Commando were stupid enough to map movement to the right analog stick and movement to the left analog stick, which is contrary to just about every game ever made on a dual-stick console.  I like the Overthinker and I think he made some valid points (like why should there be an "evade" button when you can simply just get out of the way with movement?), but this video just felt like a lot of nostalgic whining about "how much better we all were back in the good ol' days."  The problem isn't that there are a lot of functions now mapped to a lot of buttons, but that they can be mapped in such a way that it's not intuitive to use them.  Clearly Bionic Commando doesn't do that.  As for the "jump" button in Bionic Commando, it's there because people mocked the original game for you not being able to jump.  Maybe it could have worked with auto-jumping, maybe not.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2009, 09:58:44 PM »
I find it rather ridiculous that with all his bluster he never points out that the developers of Bionic Commando were stupid enough to map movement to the right analog stick and movement to the left analog stick, which is contrary to just about every game ever made on a dual-stick console.  I like the Overthinker and I think he made some valid points (like why should there be an "evade" button when you can simply just get out of the way with movement?), but this video just felt like a lot of nostalgic whining about "how much better we all were back in the good ol' days."  The problem isn't that there are a lot of functions now mapped to a lot of buttons, but that they can be mapped in such a way that it's not intuitive to use them.  Clearly Bionic Commando doesn't do that.  As for the "jump" button in Bionic Commando, it's there because people mocked the original game for you not being able to jump.  Maybe it could have worked with auto-jumping, maybe not.

I think you missed the point. He wasn't whining about games being better back then, he was stating that some of the games the industry have claimed to be the best ever are those that have easy to learn controls that added more depth and playability than games that had messy control layouts (as evidence by Bionic Commando).

He's pretty much telling game designers to not be afraid of making games with simple controls and to not try and create a messy configuration that will in the end limit your audience.

I don't see anything remotely nostalgic about that.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2009, 10:39:20 PM »
I find it rather ridiculous that with all his bluster he never points out that the developers of Bionic Commando were stupid enough to map movement to the right analog stick and movement to the left analog stick, which is contrary to just about every game ever made on a dual-stick console.  I like the Overthinker and I think he made some valid points (like why should there be an "evade" button when you can simply just get out of the way with movement?), but this video just felt like a lot of nostalgic whining about "how much better we all were back in the good ol' days."  The problem isn't that there are a lot of functions now mapped to a lot of buttons, but that they can be mapped in such a way that it's not intuitive to use them.  Clearly Bionic Commando doesn't do that.  As for the "jump" button in Bionic Commando, it's there because people mocked the original game for you not being able to jump.  Maybe it could have worked with auto-jumping, maybe not.

I think you missed the point. He wasn't whining about games being better back then, he was stating that some of the games the industry have claimed to be the best ever are those that have easy to learn controls that added more depth and playability than games that had messy control layouts (as evidence by Bionic Commando).

He's pretty much telling game designers to not be afraid of making games with simple controls and to not try and create a messy configuration that will in the end limit your audience.

I don't see anything remotely nostalgic about that.

No, I got his point about how gamers shouldn't have to fight the control scheme but the challenges in the game itself.  He also points out that developers should use controls as they need them rather than just using commands for the sake of it.  That's fine.  I just think he could have used more modern games to illustrate his point, like Smash Bros. Brawl compared to Street Fighter or whatnot.  The problem with using classic NES-era games as examples is that those games didn't use simple controls because that's what the developers wanted.  They used simple controls because that's all they had, since the NES only had 2 action buttons.  When given the option of using more buttons with later consoles, the developers have clearly preferred to use more buttons to better incorporate their design. So why not use a modern game with a streamlined control scheme to illustrate your point, like say...Batman: Arkham Asylum?

Why he chooses to devote a video to such a generally-awful game as Bionic Commando (which sold so poorly the studio that made it has shut down) instead of something that got a better public reception like Splinter Cell or Devil May Cry, is beyond me.  People didn't buy Bionic Commando, so why use it as an example of how the industry is going in the wrong direction?  And by the way, Overthinker, the original NES Bionic Commando wasn't well-known for being spectacularly easy to control, either.

He's also completely wrong when he says the Ocarina of Time, one of the greatest games of all time, "only uses two action buttons."  No, it does not.  It uses one context-sensitive button for general commands (A), one button for sword attacks (B), 1 trigger/shoulder button for camera lock-on (Z/L), 1 button for manual blocking (R), 1 button for a help button (C Up), and 3 buttons for additional weapon usage (the 3 remaining C buttons).  That's a lot of buttons for your typical gamer to remember, but it works because the controls are logically laid-out and intuitive with images of the buttons at the top of the screen so you always know what they do.

We don't need more "simple games".  We already have an entire console dedicated to nothing but them (the Wii, although it is getting better in this regard), along with two robust online services on the PS3 (PSN) and Xbox 360 (Xbox LIVE).  I don't mind a game with complicated controls if I'm not spending more time fighting them than I am the game itself (especially Quick-Time Events, one of the worst things our industry has ever come up with).
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:50:47 PM by broodwars »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2009, 10:53:49 PM »
Yeah, his comment on Ocarina of Time having only two main action buttons is weird. I think what he should have said was that if the game design calls for multiple buttons to configure them in a way that its easy to learn and doesn't compromise neither accessibility or depth.

You know something we all have to watch out for? The Game Overthinker being too self aware of his "angsty smart gamer" persona. In this video he spent a good chunk of the intro saying how he is an obnoxiously intelligent gamer guy who hates everything. I know it was a joke, but if he keeps pushing that in every video he makes he will become annoying in the same way that Malstrom became annoying for me; too much ego, not enough information.
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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2009, 11:01:54 PM »
You know something we all have to watch out for? The Game Overthinker being too self aware of his "angsty smart gamer" persona. In this video he spent a good chunk of the intro saying how he is an obnoxiously intelligent gamer guy who hates everything. I know it was a joke, but if he keeps pushing that in every video he makes he will become annoying in the same way that Malstrom became annoying for me; too much ego, not enough information.

Indeed, but I guess that's what we have to expect from all these people trying so hard to follow in Yahtzee's footsteps.  Yahtzee gets away with it because for all his banter, he's generally right and quite humorous as well as somewhat self-depricating.  The Game Overthinker, though, tends to get rather preachy and obnoxious even when he's talking about something I generally agree on.

Actually, of all the Yahtzee copycats we've gotten probably my favorite is Daniel Floyd here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlOXAtPvMDk&feature=channel  His stuff are actual lectures that are interesting, intelligent, and don't come off as ego-trips.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2009, 11:13:20 PM »
Funny enough, I stopped listening to Yahtzee ages ago as well.

But yeah, I still think the GO has some good ideas and I think he might be a decent guy. But he has the risk of turning himself into a big stereotype (the ranty, obnoxiously intelligent gamer), losing credibility despite his good ideas (now that he is on Screwattack I hope he doesn't go overboard).
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 11:22:32 PM by pap64 »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2009, 01:33:18 AM »
We have all the overthinkers you could ask for in this forum (different genres too).  He's not special.  Enjoy.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2009, 05:04:08 AM »
Wait, did BC REALLY use the right stick for movement? WTF??? I figured that was just a mistake.

The Wiimote isn't some perfect solution for this either as evidenced by the mess made by High Voltage Software with The Conduit having so many functions you have trouble mapping them all to something you can reach and most likely end up tossing at least one or two on buttons you never touch just so the ones you use can be more reachable. I honestly don't even know what I've got crouch mapped to currently.

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2009, 05:07:44 AM »
Wait, did BC REALLY use the right stick for movement? WTF??? I figured that was just a mistake.

Yeah, that was bugging me as well so I just looked it up in an FAQ.  It was just a mis-print by the OT, as the FAQ has movement labeled as left stick and camera control on the right.  I thought it was more than little wierd that he'd have that in his control diagram but not even mention it.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2009, 04:42:20 PM »
Quote
The problem with using classic NES-era games as examples is that those games didn't use simple controls because that's what the developers wanted.  They used simple controls because that's all they had, since the NES only had 2 action buttons.

That's wrong.  Several systems before the NES had like 12 or 13 buttons, like the Atari 5200 and both the Coleco and Intellivisions  Using less buttons was a conscious choice.

Quote
Why he chooses to devote a video to such a generally-awful game as Bionic Commando (which sold so poorly the studio that made it has shut down) instead of something that got a better public reception like Splinter Cell or Devil May Cry, is beyond me.

Bionic Commando is a beloved classic of both his and mine.  To see it get destroyed by piss poor controls, an awful, overbearing storyline, and a general raping of the old franchise by forcing its "grown-upness" probably stuck in his craw a little bit more than usual.  It also represents Capcom's willingness to waste their time and ours by making or approving this garbage and not, say, 3 high quality games for the market leader.  Also, the only reason this game is called a "flop" was because it was contrariwisely hyped.

Quote
We don't need more "simple games".  We already have an entire console dedicated to nothing but them (the Wii, although it is getting better in this regard), along with two robust online services on the PS3 (PSN) and Xbox 360 (Xbox LIVE).

Did he even say that?   Where did he call for simpler games?  Where was that?  And the Wii is not dedicated to "simpler games" just because the controls are more intuitive for some.  Complex, hard to understand controls =\= complex games.

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You know something we all have to watch out for? The Game Overthinker being too self aware of his "angsty smart gamer" persona.

Actually what WE have to watch out for is this inkling of hatred for the guy now that he's "made it" and has an influx of new listeners.  We'll end up being that guy in the cornet of a concert venue grumbling about how "he used to be good until he SOLD OUT."  Seems to be a lot of that going around these days.  Something gets popular, time to hate it and go for things marketed as "underground, rebel, gamer lifestyle" products, because that fits our focus-tested demographic.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2009, 04:53:02 PM »
I tend to not take people seriously who's whole purpose is to be insulting of games for entertainment purposes. It is like taking offense to the Angry Video Game Nerd, then again even that character can be more serious then this blowhard.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2009, 07:08:14 PM »
He isn't ragging on games for the hell of it. He is simply commenting on some of the things that go on in the industry and provide an alternate train of thought. He made some really, REALLY good and insightful episodes that I believe are quite true. My concern is that he is going to abandon that in favor of more "humor" and abuse of his overthinker persona and please the fans (which ironically enough he didn't seem to care about that).
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Offline Rize

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2009, 09:27:03 PM »
I find it rather ridiculous that with all his bluster he never points out that the developers of Bionic Commando were stupid enough to map movement to the right analog stick and movement to the left analog stick, which is contrary to just about every game ever made on a dual-stick console.  I like the Overthinker and I think he made some valid points (like why should there be an "evade" button when you can simply just get out of the way with movement?), but this video just felt like a lot of nostalgic whining about "how much better we all were back in the good ol' days."  The problem isn't that there are a lot of functions now mapped to a lot of buttons, but that they can be mapped in such a way that it's not intuitive to use them.  Clearly Bionic Commando doesn't do that.  As for the "jump" button in Bionic Commando, it's there because people mocked the original game for you not being able to jump.  Maybe it could have worked with auto-jumping, maybe not.

Maybe that's because he screwed up the labeling.  In Bionic Commando just like any other first or third person action game with shooting, you control aiming with the right analog stick and movement with the left.

Also, this was his worst video period.  I actually enjoyed the previous 25, but I found this bad.  He spends too much time ripping on a game he obviously knows very little about.

I also hate his idea that anyone who enjoys complex controls wants to shut out simpletons who can't adjust.  I like complex controls because they give me more freedom and control over the game.  There is a time and place for simplifying controls (such as Zelda's auto-jump and Prime's single analog control with lock on targeting), but overall I prefer the freedom afforded by complex control schemes (within reason).

Bionic Commando was great as is.  You really only used the L trigger and two face buttons (dodging, looking and weak punches were used .... almost never... and it would be easy to beat the game without touching them) along with the standard looking, moving and shooting controls.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2009, 02:30:35 AM »
Dunno, I thought 25 was worse because of all the hyperbole.

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2009, 02:50:43 AM »
I think the Open Letter to Nintendo one was the worst. I know it might be tongue in cheek, but he had a gold mine when it came to Nintendo criticism, but stuck to the lame guns.

I think his Sonic in Crisis episodes are the best since instead of going down the "WAAAAAH OLD SONIC WAS BETTER" route he actually did an elaborate explanation of why the franchise has issues and how it could be changed.
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Offline Rize

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2009, 10:11:22 AM »
I agree, the Sonic Episodes were probably the best.

Overall though, I think I prefer yahzee by a great margin if only because Yahtzee shares my general hatred toward Nintendo's new strategy whereas Mr. Overthinker is an apologetic for it.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The "Game Overthinker" Thread
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2009, 11:08:07 AM »
I like Yahtzee's reviews because I usually think the same way about the games.