Author Topic: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?  (Read 28495 times)

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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« on: February 27, 2009, 07:07:09 AM »
Nintendo is doing great, no doubt about it, and I am pleased about that. But I can't help but think this success is coming at a cost. What made Nintendo great from the NES years onward wasn't that it was the market leader, but that the games were of stellar quality and that made owning Nintendo systems worthwhile even if third party support was ****. And during the NES and SNES  years Nintendo coupled 3rd party support with excellent 1st party offerings.

But is this still true with the Wii? Though the Wii is the undisputed market leader, the only new franchises Nintendo had introduced is non-games like Wii Fit and Wii Music and Wii Resort. We do enjoy rehashes of core classic NIntendo games like Zelda and Mario, but where is the new hardcore stuff? Nintendo has apparently realized softcore games are cheap to develop and sell extremely well, so that's pretty much all they focus on now. Longstanding Nintendo fans are "rewarded" with rehashes of recycled franchises, but all the new stuff goes to wooing grandmas. What gives?

Remember when the Gamecube only did games and nothing else? Many people complained about that, but I thought it was the right way to go. When you try to shove a lot of capabilities into one device you lose focus and you end up excelling at nothing. This is the problem with the PS3 and 360. While they do play games, they also want to do movies and everything else at the same time. Well, Nintendo used to be above that, but look at the DSi and you see they are caving in somewhat to the same sort of behavior that led Sony to develop the PSP. The PSP is a jack of all trades, but a master of nothing. If you want a gaming device, you get a DS. If you want a multimedia device, you're better off getting an iphone or ipod. The PSP can do all those things, but it can't do them terribly well.

But the main issue is the games. Nintendo is a wealthy company now (actually they have been for many years), so why do they just horde their wealth? They should be using their wealth to build and acquire new studios and start pumping out new franchises, especially ones geared towards their hardcore fans. The 20th incarnation of Mario or Zelda can only satisfy old guard fans for so long, eventually we want something new and fresh, but where is it? I'm not a non-gamer really at all. I can play them for 15 minutes or so and then I'm done. I need more 40+ hour epics.

I think Nintendo's problem came when they became successful again. They were succesful in the 80s and 90s too, but there was something different then that I can't really put my finger on. Maybe its because many of the people who made Nintendo great back then have left the company, or have become older and had their interests change which unfortunately seems to be the case with Miyamoto. Yes, Nintendo is a huge success once again, but it seems they've sold their soul to get there. Has success made Nintendo no different than any other huge company? Are they now really no different than Sony or MS?
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2009, 09:20:30 AM »
Do you think the NES revived gaming by appealing to the hardcore gamers? Those were playing computers anyway. Everything you see as hardcore gaming now was once introduced as casual gaming.

Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2009, 09:24:59 AM »
Really, this tired argument again? I'll let this ride for a bit, but if it devolves into the same old debate, I'm locking this quick, fast, and in a hurry.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2009, 09:34:39 AM »
But is this still true with the Wii? Though the Wii is the undisputed market leader, the only new franchises Nintendo had introduced is non-games like Wii Fit and Wii Music and Wii Resort. We do enjoy rehashes of core classic NIntendo games like Zelda and Mario, but where is the new hardcore stuff? Nintendo has apparently realized softcore games are cheap to develop and sell extremely well, so that's pretty much all they focus on now. Longstanding Nintendo fans are "rewarded" with rehashes of recycled franchises, but all the new stuff goes to wooing grandmas. What gives?

False, Nintendo was always about appealing to everyone, Nintendo always does new franchises so I don't know where you have been especially when there is EXCITE!!, just because a specific new game from Nintendo appeals you doesn't mean that Nintendo abandoned you, if you think that there was always hardcore gaming that's false NES even had a piano training game! But the reason we get "rehashes" is because it's Nintendo's staple franchises and there's demand for them always it's like saying that Sony shouldn't make anymore God of War games and Microsoft shouldn't make Halo games anymore.  Also where have you been Nintendo released a bunch of hardcore games: Battalion Wars 2, Excite Truck, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, LOZ:TP, Mario Kart Wii, Mario Strikers, Mario Sluggers, Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Paper Mario, Super Smash Bros Brawl, Wario Land Shake It, Wario Ware: Smooth Moves. So learn your facts before you claim that Nintendo has just given up, I think Nintendo has a good balance between catering for both the Nintendo fans and games that appeal to everyone.

Remember when the Gamecube only did games and nothing else? Many people complained about that, but I thought it was the right way to go. When you try to shove a lot of capabilities into one device you lose focus and you end up excelling at nothing. This is the problem with the PS3 and 360. While they do play games, they also want to do movies and everything else at the same time. Well, Nintendo used to be above that, but look at the DSi and you see they are caving in somewhat to the same sort of behavior that led Sony to develop the PSP. The PSP is a jack of all trades, but a master of nothing. If you want a gaming device, you get a DS. If you want a multimedia device, you're better off getting an iphone or ipod. The PSP can do all those things, but it can't do them terribly well.
Microsoft and Sony always focus on multimedia first then gaming second like I said in another thread before and Nintendo is about gaming first and added value stuff second. I don't really think that the DSi is caving in to that since part of the reason they are using cameras is for gameplay purposes like the new Wario Ware on DSi deals with using the camera. Also yes there is multimedia stuff on the DSi and the DSi won't do a bunch of things well like audio files can only be played in the AAC format. But Nintendo in my eyes is trying to go after the iphone in a way since Apple has a apps store that you can download and buy neat applications and Nintendo always wanted ways to implement added value solutions with the DSL since you saw their failed attempts(commercially) with a MP3 player add on and internet browser but these times they are integrated into the machine now. 

But the main issue is the games. Nintendo is a wealthy company now (actually they have been for many years), so why do they just horde their wealth? They should be using their wealth to build and acquire new studios and start pumping out new franchises, especially ones geared towards their hardcore fans. The 20th incarnation of Mario or Zelda can only satisfy old guard fans for so long, eventually we want something new and fresh, but where is it? I'm not a non-gamer really at all. I can play them for 15 minutes or so and then I'm done. I need more 40+ hour epics.

I don't know where you have been but Nintendo made a new building in Kyoto, formed Project Sora with Sora (Nintendo being the principal investor), they just announced a bunch of release dates and 2 new games: Excitebots:Trick Racing and Legend of Starfy. Also Nintendo announced another model of the classic controller for people who didn't like the first one you just have to wait for the announcement since I think Nintendo was burned with LOZ:TP coming out way later than they wanted it to. Also you don't need to stick with only Nintendo games on Nintendo systems there are a bunch of great third party games on Wii despite what anyone says.

I think Nintendo's problem came when they became successful again. They were succesful in the 80s and 90s too, but there was something different then that I can't really put my finger on. Maybe its because many of the people who made Nintendo great back then have left the company, or have become older and had their interests change which unfortunately seems to be the case with Miyamoto. Yes, Nintendo is a huge success once again, but it seems they've sold their soul to get there. Has success made Nintendo no different than any other huge company? Are they now really no different than Sony or MS?

People always come and go you can never really change that however in my eyes Nintendo didn't change, people's tastes did in my opinion. Also Wii, Gamecube and SNES are my favorite Nintendo consoles since those are the Nintendo systems I had the most fun with. Just because Nintendo is focusing on a more broader audience(which is a lie since Nintendo always tried to target everyone) to rekindle a dying market in Japan and to reverse the trend of Nintendo consoles shrinking and shrinking in user base, if your user base shrinks every 6 years or so the best business sense is to change your strategy of course.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 10:51:28 AM »
Nintendo is definitely losing touch with it's roots, they're making all these "video games" when they should be focusing on Hanafuda cards.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2009, 11:33:35 AM »
Nintendo is definitely losing touch with it's roots, they're making all these "video games" when they should be focusing on Hanafuda cards.

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Offline SirSniffy

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 12:12:02 PM »
I understand the TC perfectly, but I don't think that it's entirely Nintendo's fault. And I don't think it's losing it's touch. Nintendo today is the same virtually as Nintendo in the 1980's and 1990's. What's changed are the goals of developers, the change in tastes of gamers, and in the landscape in general.

It's not that Nintendo doesn't have enough "hardcore" games, because dammit how much more hardcore can you get than living in a town full of animals, and exchanging gifts with people? It's more of the idea that Nintendo doesn't have the kind of 3rd party support it had back then. Back then you had NES/SNES and SMS/Genesis...Developers chose Nintendo, the system that had more of a userbase.

Nowadays, with developers in a crunch to create better content, and now with more options with regards to platforms, Developers are gonna' go with the platform that is more in line with their goals. Unfortunately that translates to not only to which system has the broader user base, but also to which system has the specs to deliver the content they want. Sure, they could scale down the content and put it on the Wii, but would it be worth it if they have to alter their goals so drastically?

So it's not for Nintendo's lack of trying, they have not changed, they are just taking what has been working for the past 2 years, and running with it. Which means more pony and dog grooming games, more Nintendo home game sequels, and more quirky games for you Aunt Rosalind. I personally am happy with all the games coming out on the Wii lately...and for me to say that...when I am usually negative about everything...is a feat in itself.  :P
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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2009, 12:28:04 PM »
Nintendo is successfully cutting ties with its delusional pretend fans that had no hand in making the company successful.  Their sales were not responsible for keeping the company afloat during the dark GameCube ages, since there aren't many of them in the first place, yet they like to think Nintendo is still around because of them.  When Nintendo listens to its fans, it leads to disaster.  Nintendo woke up and realized "you morons are killing us, you only buy 2 or 3 games a year, and you spend most of your time complaining on the internet.  **** this, we're going to make games fun again.  games are entertainment, not art."

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Offline Ymeegod

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2009, 02:28:42 PM »
Money, nintendo isn't doing anything different IMO but you can't expect publishers to spend millions on ideas that are "iffy". 

And also you have to factor in time.  Not only does it cost more to develope but it also takes alot longer than those ole 16bit games. 

The DS = the new snes IMO.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2009, 04:46:26 PM »
This new IP argument is really strange. Are we including internally published games only? If so Nintendo has never been big about new IPs, with the GC we got Pikmin, and um, yeah. On Wii we've gotten Captain Rainbow, Disaster (though to be fair they weren't always internal!), Wii Sports, and Wii Fit. I do take issue with the fact that Mario Galaxy is a rehash, the game does some many new things for the platformer, heck I remember people freaking out because they thought it was too different! What about Nintendo revisiting franchises that we haven't seen for a long time, or no one expected to come back (like Sin and Punishment), do they get no credit for that?

Nintendo is far from losing their video gaming roots, they are just making MORE stuff then ever before. Not to mention publishing things that the Nintendo of old wouldn't dare publish like Fatal Frame. Nintendo is still at its core a gaming company, maybe one with a larger scope in the games it creates but they are still a video game company.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2009, 04:52:28 PM »
Cue Ian and any angsty, angry Nintendo fanboy in three, two, one...
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2009, 06:49:29 PM »
Nintendo is fine and has good 3rd party support that is growing every day. I'm still a fan. There have been a number of quality epic scale titles already released by Nintendo and others. More is on the way constantly.
Maybe I just have less disposable income than you, but I can't keep up with all the great games coming out on Wii.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2009, 07:46:25 PM »
Quote
Cue Ian and any angsty, angry Nintendo fanboy in three, two, one...

What am I supposed to say that Chozo Ghost didn't already say?  I agree with him, simple as that.  Most people here probably aren't going to.  The lack of epic games using new IPs is something I feel very strongly about but few seem to care or they don't notice the problem.

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2009, 07:51:42 PM »
Ian do you recall the October event?There was plenty of New IPs announced there.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2009, 08:38:25 PM »
It is true, though, that most of the announced IP's from that conference were not 'epic'. Punch Out isn't the next epic game. Yet, has Nintendo ever been known for really huge Final Fantasy-type epic games?

I see what you mean now. You guys are looking for the 30+ hour experiences like Okami or FF VI, right?
Well considering Kid Icarus from Factor-5 is dead, I can't think of anything else that is for sure coming. I'll bet we'll see something at E3. E3 is going to be in May again, right? I think Nintendo learned their lesson last year about not showing anything.

We know that there is a 'new Mario' and a 'new Zelda' coming. Plus Pikmin 3 and judging from how big Pikmin 2 was, that will be awesome. Fatal Frame will probably arrive this year. Since Disaster and Soma Bringer are out (in Japan) Monolith has plenty of time to develop something new for Nintendo. Intelligent Systems just released Fire Emblem on DS so they are free too. Don't forget Retro is probably working on something new along with the two Prime Wii-Leases. There's also Project Sora. HAL isn't up to anything in particular that I know about other that the limbo Kirby game. Silicone Knights may or may not be partnering up with Nintendo for that unnamed thriller project especially if it turns out to be Eternal Darkness 2 since Nintendo holds the copyrights and patents for the game and the sanity system.

Lets list these out:
>Fatal Frame
>'new Mario'*
>'new Zelda'*
>Pikmin 3
>Monolith game
>Intelligent Systems game
>Project Sora game
>Retro Studios game
>Silicone Knights psychological thriller game
>HAL game (maybe Kirby?)

OK, so I count a potential list of ten games. Do any of those interest you Ian and Chozo? Can anyone add to this list at all? Remember this is just 1st and 2nd party projects I am listing. The list would more than triple if we added 3rd party endeavors.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2009, 08:52:48 PM »
While I'm interested in those titles.I'm talking about NEW IPs. There was a few New IPs announced there.
Dynamic Slash, There was that Space game and a few others.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2009, 08:57:45 PM »
While I'm interested in those titles.I'm talking about NEW IPs. There was a few New IPs announced there.
Dynamic Slash, There was that Space game and a few others.

??? I think I missed half of the games announced then if those do not ring a bell to me. That would explain my lack of excitement at the Fall conference. The articles I read only spoke of S&P2 and Punch Out.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2009, 09:53:32 PM »
There is a topic on page 9 right now.Bill started it.It's called Nintendo Retailer Conference.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2009, 09:57:39 PM »
I'll check that out, thanks.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2009, 10:20:59 PM »
Anytime.
Sorry for the slight derailment.

Here is my take on this.

The original DS was mainly a system that was purchased by Handheld enthusiast. Once Brain Age and similar games came out I believe it started to take of.Once the DS Lite came out the hardware sales increased significantly.The DS Lite was a intermediate step towards expanding the base.Once the DS Lite came out I believe developers took it more seriously. The DSi is different from the PSP and Iphone because of how it uses its features compaired to the PSP and Iphone.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 10:37:09 PM by Maxi »
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 10:34:24 PM »
Why is part of the word significantly starred out?

So anyway, your saying, Maxi, that Nintendo is currently attempting to broaden their audience and create more gamers in the process?
Am I understanding you correctly?
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 10:42:46 PM »
I'm not sure it is starred out.

Yes that is what I am say Stratos.The type of things that the DSi can do will make it so that the DSi will become more apart of their lives.It will ease the new players in more.The DSiware will further it even more than the hardware.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2009, 10:45:33 PM »
Why is part of the word significantly starred out?
That's why I have the Word Filter switched off, as it filters out strange things sometimes.
If you quote the post those of us with the filter switched off will be able to see what it looks like filtered.

Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2009, 12:48:40 AM »
Quote
Cue Ian and any angsty, angry Nintendo fanboy in three, two, one...

What am I supposed to say that Chozo Ghost didn't already say?  I agree with him, simple as that.  Most people here probably aren't going to.  The lack of epic games using new IPs is something I feel very strongly about but few seem to care or they don't notice the problem.

Also Ian if you look at the trends of the so called hardcore gamers on HD platforms they favor action games or FPS games that are less than 15 hours long.
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Re: Is Nintendo losing touch with its roots?
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2009, 01:52:42 AM »
^ Ian better rewrite is definition of `epic` to catch up with modern HD times.
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