Author Topic: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.  (Read 11713 times)

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Offline that Baby guy

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This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« on: November 06, 2008, 12:23:13 AM »
This post will be used for posting the current rules, as posters agree upon.  My opinion, hopefully, will not infiltrate this post.

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 12:47:30 AM »
Now, I'll start off by saying that the order of priority of night actions should be established in the rules post.  The order shouldn't be impacted by the time of the action submitted, IMO.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 01:01:56 AM »
Bah, it's just mafia tradition to gripe after you don't win. I'm not sure we need to got his far. Like I said, it's just a little forum game. It's not like this is some national league or pro sport where we have to define every little thing.

I think everyone knows that I'm a fan of this game. And I know you are too thatguy and just want to see that these little squabbles come to end. I'd like to see that too but it's just the nature of the beast. I'm of the mind to let each host set his own rules and be done with it.

Just because a game has a hiccup or two is no reason to have to put a foot down and say what is and isn't legal or try to set someone straight.

I'll re-iterate again what I said in another thread, this game is a chance for us forum dwellers to get together. It helps build the bond of the forum more and learn abit about other forum members and have a fun time. If it gets authortative and dictative, it will lose that appeal. That doesn't mean we can't be strategic in the game or have to worry about one another's feelings in a move we may make. The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. But one side can not gain dominence over the other. Balance must be kept.

You just have to take the good with the bad and move on to the next game. Because the next game will be different from the last with its own set of challenge.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2008, 01:15:10 AM »
Oh, that's not the purpose of this at all, Khush.  The goal is to let new hosts not have to dig through each and every mafia to find out what is generally assumed.  Beyond that, there's been several games where I've assumed the rules functioned one way, and have been incorrect.  Often, the host assumes the players know about how night actions take place, for example.  I asked about this in one of the last game's threads, and no one seemed to be against it then, so I decided I'd go ahead and make a thread to suggest it.

For instance, Khush, how do you handle the order of night actions turned in?
How did Decoyman?  Stevey?  Spak?  Myself?  Others I can't remember?  They're different, but each host typically assumes players know how the night actions will occur, and often, this is not the case.  Wouldn't it be wise to decide on one general way, and ask that each host declare when they plan to deviate from the one?

In fact, in this past game, priority based on time didn't even happen.  I found out afterward that it was a possibility.  This isn't about the last game, especially since my main point for making this last game never came into play.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2008, 01:27:55 AM »
Most games, night actions are pretty simple. Generally, I outline in the roles how they work and how the night actions work. But that's because I will vary from game to game. For instance, some games I will give the detective an investigation Day 1 as soon as he sends an order in. Some games, I wait and give him the investigation after Day 1. After that, the detective just has to survive each day and night for another investigation.

So, let's say it's Day 3 and the detective has his investigation. So, he can pm me any time he wants the name of who he will investigate for Day 4 and he can change that name right up until night actions are due. Then he is stuck with that choice. If he lives through the night, I will send him the result after I have posted the new day thread. If he gets killed at night, he never recieves the result. Must be alive at the start of the next day.

There are other roles like that.

Here's a complicated one:

The Identity Theft -This player can choose to kill one person in the game and gets their role.

So, let's say that is Stevey. Stevey chooses to hit Khushrenada that night. Khushrenada is the killer. However, Khushrenada has also been hit by the mafia godfather. Does Stevey still get to steal Khushrenada's role and become the killer? Or does the mafia hit prevent that and Stevey's hit doesn't go through? What about the killer and his hit? Is it denied because his identity is stolen that night? Or does he get the hit, lose his identity and then get killed by the mafia? What if the killer's hit is against Stevey or the mafia godfather?
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2008, 01:30:06 AM »
No whiny faces allowed when they lose :P
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Offline Gylldas

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2008, 02:01:55 AM »
Adding to GP.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2008, 09:22:51 AM »
I like that each host has a different take on the rules...because it means the games have a certain uniqueness to them.

Like for instance...Most hosts take the vote as a day action, and therefore the player voted out does not get their night action, because they were killed.  Completely logical and gives power to the townies.

In fact, this rule becomes more important when you add that the mafia can select whom to perform the hit, and if that person is voted out then the hit is not performed.

I personally, always thought the vote was in the day...but the killing of the vote was like a lynching at night.  So I allowed all night actions to occur at the same time...including the death from the vote. 

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See it is these unique interpretations of the rules that make the game interesting.  Just like how many mafia/townies there should be...what about the abilities of the townies and mafia members should have.  Each mafia game is handcrafted.

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Khush on the identity theft, how I would handle a situation like that is...the trump goes to the special ability.  If the mafia hit is just killing a player...but the Identity Theft is absorbing the power, I will give it to the Identity Theft, because the mafia still get their end results of having that player dead, and the killer gets the role for choosing that hit as well.  It also makes for a more interesting story and game...which is what the host should be crafting with the mafia game whether they decide to write a story or not.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 03:30:15 PM by Mr. Jack »

Offline UncleBob

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2008, 09:24:53 AM »
The only rule I want is that the Host cannot directly effect the outcome of the game (I'm looking at you, Bill. ;))
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Offline Dasmos

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2008, 09:41:03 AM »
I guess this thread is more about stating the standard rules unless stated otherwise in the individual game's rules. I don't think thatguy is trying to have a set of rules that evryone must follow. I guess decoyman's game is a perfect example of this, with the order in which the night actions were sent in was important. I don't think he put it down in the rules, so everyone assumed that it was played as normal. Another big one was the Godfather still getting a hit even if they die, which wasn't outlined in his rules. There was a little bit of confusion over that because it oculd have affected the outcome of the game. Nobody is saying that decoyman can't do that in his game, it's just that he should have made that clear to avoid any confusion down the line.
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Offline decoyman

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2008, 10:54:21 AM »
So, this thread would define the "defaults" in rules? If so, I guess that's cool.

I'd never been in a game (until the last time I was mafia) where the mafia lost its hit when the godfather went out. Or, at least it never affected us. It surprised me when it happened. From a "common sense" perspective, it didn't make sense, but from a "game strategy" perspective, it does.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 11:19:17 AM »
I just think that each of the complicated rules: ties , certain night actions, and voting requirements be discussed in the sign-up thread.  The host should make most things clear, but also explain results when bizarre outcomes occur.

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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 04:15:10 PM »
Right, the idea is to establish what the game's players will assume and expect unless stated otherwise on some tricky things.

The first is that night actions have equal priority as each other unless one action is stated to preclude another in the rules.  Night actions do not occur in the order they were submitted to the host.  Some roles, such as the Doctor, may intrinsically have priority based on the function of their role.
-If the Mafia hits the killer and the Killer attacks the Godfather, both the Killer and the Godfather would die under these rules.
-If the Mafia hits the Investigator and the Doctor protects the Investigator, the Investigator will not be hit, since protection comes first.

Does anyone disagree with this?  Does it seem like a fair and easy-to-understand guideline?

I think the next opinion should be on what happens when the godfather is voted out during the daily thread.  Does the hit still occur?  Personally, I believe it should not.  Spak said above that he sees the lynching as something that occurs at night, allowing the hit to occur.  In a game where the henchman are assigned to kill, I feel this is acceptable, but in a game where the godfather just chooses a player to kill, I think this shouldn't be standard, since it isn't standard to allow any other role to use their night action on the same day they are voted out.  Additionally, I feel that because the godfather is most often the most difficult mafia member to find, for hitting him, the townies deserve a reward.

What are the others' thoughts?

Offline Plugabugz

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2008, 04:46:21 PM »
Would it be fair for me and Dasmos to be able to vote by a nominated person?

For instance, i nominate thatguy to take my vote. He's ultimately allowed to make that decision for me. Naturally there's all the risks involved of trusting a mafia to vote for me...

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 04:58:53 PM »
That would definitely be a game-specific rule.  You'd have to defer to the host on that one.

Offline vudu

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2008, 05:08:25 PM »
I have a new rule/role suggestion.  I'm not sure how well it would work out, but I'll share it here and maybe we can kick around a few ideas.

I hasn't come up recently, but we used to have the problem where important roles would be assigned to non-participating players.  It can really hurt the townies if the investigator doesn't show up for a couple days and it can downright cripple the mafia if the godfather forgets to send in his night action.  Last game Oooboy was just a plain townie, but if he had an important role it would have sucked.

I propose a rule that if the godfather (or any other mafia member who has a night action) doesn't send the host his night action any other mafia member can assume his duties for the day.  If a no-show is a concern (depending on who is godfather) it might be a good idea that a "second-in-command" sends the host the godfather's night action every day but it will be automatically over-ruled if the actual godfather makes the hit.

I think it would also be interesting if the townies had a player that knew all the roled-townies and would be allowed to perform their night-action if they didn't show up for the day.  (Obviously, the role would have special rules that forbid him from informing anyone of his role and possibly even communicating with them via PM unless it was necessary to keep his identity a secret--think the T-Rex in an F14.)  This role might be too hard to successfully pull-off and obviously it would only be needed if there were a large number of new players.  Alternatively, it might be better to have the host contact this player if his input is needed instead of informing him of all roles at the beginning of the game.
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Offline vudu

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2008, 05:11:16 PM »
Would it be fair for me and Dasmos to be able to vote by a nominated person?

My vote's no on this one.  Analyzing voting patterns is a crucial part of determining someone's alliance.  If you defer your voting ability to someone else it makes it incredibly difficult to tell what side you're on.  Besides, if you're not voting you're not really playing the game.
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Offline Plugabugz

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2008, 05:18:13 PM »
True. I wanted to put a suggestion forward in light of the time differences affecting everything.

It's not gonna work ;)

Offline Dasmos

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2008, 08:24:16 PM »
lol, I guess it just seems all I can ever do is either start a bandwagon or jump on one. But it's okay, I've gotten used to it.

I have a new rule/role suggestion.  I'm not sure how well it would work out, but I'll share it here and maybe we can kick around a few ideas.

I hasn't come up recently, but we used to have the problem where important roles would be assigned to non-participating players.  It can really hurt the townies if the investigator doesn't show up for a couple days and it can downright cripple the mafia if the godfather forgets to send in his night action.  Last game Oooboy was just a plain townie, but if he had an important role it would have sucked.

I propose a rule that if the godfather (or any other mafia member who has a night action) doesn't send the host his night action any other mafia member can assume his duties for the day.  If a no-show is a concern (depending on who is godfather) it might be a good idea that a "second-in-command" sends the host the godfather's night action every day but it will be automatically over-ruled if the actual godfather makes the hit.

I think it would also be interesting if the townies had a player that knew all the roled-townies and would be allowed to perform their night-action if they didn't show up for the day.  (Obviously, the role would have special rules that forbid him from informing anyone of his role and possibly even communicating with them via PM unless it was necessary to keep his identity a secret--think the T-Rex in an F14.)  This role might be too hard to successfully pull-off and obviously it would only be needed if there were a large number of new players.  Alternatively, it might be better to have the host contact this player if his input is needed instead of informing him of all roles at the beginning of the game.

I can't see this working, it's basically exactly like Plugabugz's idea for our voting that you poo-pooed, but with powers. Which are much more powerful/influential. No-shows don't often occur to roled-players because they feel they have responsibility to the game and if they do you just have to roll with the punches. I don't think handing the power of the role over to someone else really solves anything, especially in relation to finding said person. If the mafia is still making hits, but the godfather hasn't been online in a week how are you going to find them?
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2008, 12:48:58 AM »
I'll tell you the biggest you problem about mafia and I've yet to see a satisfactory answer on it and it's a problem we've had since Mafia 5.

Ties.

Augh! I can't stand it! Whoops. Still channeling Charlie Brown.

Anyways, different hosts have had different ideas and batted around different suggestions and rules but I think this is the biggest area that needs an open discussion. Roles have been made for this thing but they don't always work. I'm thinking the townie whore for instance who might change someone's vote to cause the tie or not even use their power. (I'm looking at you DAaaMan64, the Contessa of Mafia 26 who complains he never gets a role and then doesn't use it when he does get one.)

Some host have gone to the coin toss or another piece of random luck which seems to be the best solution at the moment but I don't like it. This could be a game changing vote and it just happens to end on a coin toss? My only response to the situation has been fear tactics to punish the voters if they can't come to an agreement and end the tie. It's worked a bit but not always. (I'm looking at you Mafia 26).

In the first game it happened, Pyropizm called the day a draw, no one was killed, no night actions took place and a new day started and everybody had at it again. While this isn't a bad scenario either, it has it's faults. You don't want mafia games to drag on and even if no one does get a night action, every extra day hurts the mafia as the townies have more time to work together and stay alive.

I don't neccessarily mind ties. They can sometimes occur because of some good strategic play taking place as people work to save themselves or counter one bandwagon with another.

But that's why I would like to see a tie resolved strategically instead of luck or punishing a non-voter or voter. The people voted for in the tie are the winners of the majority of the vote. They have been chosen by the rest of the players to be eliminated. The problem is, how do you choose which one? You can hope that somebody shows up to vote and resolve the tie or someone changes their vote? But what if no one does and the roles to influence voting have not helped solve the situation?

How can we resolve ties in a satisfying manner?
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2008, 01:01:09 AM »
I think the best way is that tied players die, period, end of story.  Having them each take one out with them screws over the voters and artificially shortens the games.  Then, extending the vote seems to work, but then the times get screwy and the reverse happens.
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2008, 01:43:46 AM »
Taking out both tied players doesn't work either. We have 4 suspicious people. Let's just tie them all up and then let them all die. I believe it should only be one death per day vote unless a certain rule is in place. (Bomber!) Moreover, this just encourages lazy play. Let's say you've got 4 votes against you. But over the course of the day, you manage to get 3 people to vote with you against someone else. You're cutting deals to save yourself and then voting ends, you're tied, you're dead.

Great, you managed to take someone with you. But you weren't able to convince anyone from the other bandwagon to switch their vote and vote with you. Why? Because they had no incentive to.They weren't in danger. And even if the vote did get tied, you'd still die anyways. Plus, you might be helping them by taking someone valuable with you.


Thinking about the matter and what I would like to purpose is this: If the vote is tied at the end of the day and not resolved, no one is killed but night actions still go one as normal. Now, I realize people might decry this as unfair right away but I think it has merit. We all know the townies weapon is their vote. This was the thing that people declared was unfair about Pale's mafia with RAB always surviving the vote. It took away their power. So, not killing someone in the vote and letting night actions like mafia hits go on, seems to be putting the balance of power to the mafia. But it really isn't. It's just a consequence for not resolving the tie.

As long as the townies work to resolve the tie and get someone voted out, they still keep their power and can use it. Moreover, it keeps them from being lazy and unconcerned about the vote. It also provides advantages to the players in the bandwagons working to fight off elimination. It eliminates the need for luck to determine the final outcome of the vote. I.E. coin toss. Moreover, townies are not punished for voting against someone and being chosen to die with them because the tie wasn't resolved. While the consequence for not resolving a tie isn't as catastrophic as it has been in the past, (the investigator could still make an investigation that night into the tied players), the fact that it slows the townie effort down might be motivation enough to see that a tie gets resolved.

Moreover, strategy is encouraged and rewarded. The mafia could work to make ties to prevent the townies from getting a vote. Townies will have to think about the vote more. Good players could be able to prevent their deaths.

I guess you could say, Mario Kart Mafia is really the prototype of this kind of a tiebreak. That's how the last day was resolved. You may want to consider that game and day to decide whether this is a strategy worth pursuing since that tiebreak pretty much decided the game. But this is the best solution I've been able to come up with after thinking about the matter.
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Offline Mario

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2008, 01:53:04 AM »
For a tie, I propose tossing a coin. 50/50 chance one will die. One gets lucky, one dies, but hey, you got lots of votes anyway.

Or, both players duke it out in Mario Kart Wii and the loser dies. Or a Pokemon battle, or Smash Bros. iSketch. Chess. Anything.

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2008, 02:12:57 AM »
Nickmitch I don't think that killing the people that are tied are the answer. The Sonic game there was a tie at the end and both were townies.If we kill the people that are tied than it can be advantageous for the mafia to create ties between two townies. Yes it can be a boon for the townies as well but what are the chances that the townies know 2 mafia members early.The mafia holds all of the cards at the beginning.

I think ties should be handled by letting the voters choose anybody left in the game not just those tied.Give the voters 30 min to decide and they can change votes as many times as they want.
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Re: This thread is to determine standard mafia rule suggestions.
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2008, 03:49:59 AM »
But then if the mafia do that you can guess who they are by seeing who pushed for the tie. I'm not defending the idea because it's still broken. You could kill 16 people on day 1 if 16 people vote for different people.