Author Topic: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4  (Read 45873 times)

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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2008, 01:40:32 AM »
Yeah you played a great game Golden.
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #101 on: October 31, 2008, 01:43:56 AM »
At Last! It can be revealed.

The Cat Next Door. World War II. Snoopy's greatest enemy's true identity is about to be made known. Click on the link below if you dare.

The horror

And for its last act, the Cat Next Door puts a hit on Snoopy!
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Offline Gylldas

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #102 on: October 31, 2008, 01:45:34 AM »
Well congrats to the winners!  Khush you are an evil genius.
I'm looking forward to the next game.

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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2008, 01:46:43 AM »
Khushrenada could you explain to Gylldas how you figured all of the roled players so fast. I know part of it was me and my perfect investigations, but what was the other half?


Ah that is great. I had a feeling that was going to come up.
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #104 on: October 31, 2008, 01:56:34 AM »
I went ahead and told him my role when it was useless.  I knew he'd block me anyways, if he were mafia, so I knew if he knew my role and thought I'd hit a townie, he wouldn't try to block me.

I tried to throw him off on night three, but accidentally named a mafia member as my target!

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2008, 02:13:00 AM »
Well this was a exciting game. I am going to bed.

Good game everybody.:)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 02:18:44 AM by Maxi »
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
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I'm happy with thinking pokepal148 is just eating a stick of butter. It seems about right for him. I don't need no stinking facts.

Offline RABicle

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2008, 04:57:23 AM »
Nominating thatguy for man of the match.
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Offline decoyman

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2008, 08:34:43 AM »
...I tried to throw him off on night three, but accidentally named a mafia member as my target!

You said you made good guesses... guess this is the proof :)
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Offline vudu

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2008, 02:15:57 PM »
Khushrenada could you explain to Gylldas how you figured all of the roled players so fast. I know part of it was me and my perfect investigations, but what was the other half?

I flat out told him my role because it didn't matter.  I had a fairly useless townie role, so I decided to try something different this game and be as forthcoming as possible.  I told Dasmos, thatguy, Khush, Toruresu and I think a couple other people.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2008, 03:59:01 PM »
Ah I see.

Decoyman where is that story?
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
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Offline Toruresu

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2008, 04:14:19 PM »
Yes, where is the story? I want to see what you did with my little change of heart.
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Offline decoyman

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #111 on: October 31, 2008, 04:44:01 PM »
Yes, where is the story? I want to see what you did with my little change of heart.

Stayed up debating instead of writing, then I've been at work all day. It'll have to wait till I get home from work in a few hours! I promise, it's on its way!
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #112 on: October 31, 2008, 04:47:48 PM »
All right I will be waiting intently for your story.
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
Alexis, she/her/Miss

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I'm happy with thinking pokepal148 is just eating a stick of butter. It seems about right for him. I don't need no stinking facts.

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #113 on: October 31, 2008, 05:05:39 PM »
Taking a little heavier of a look at this, I'd like to note a few things that help show the imbalance, by comparing the game to the game #27, another strong mafia win.

On that game, the mafia had no abilities, courted over a townie player, and the investigator was killed after the first day.  In that game, no mafia members died, and after day 3, the game was over.  The game had 12 players, and a perfect round took exactly 3 days, for the mafia.  If there would be one complaint in the game, it was likely to be that the townies had no method to gauge who the mafia were.  That's probably the biggest problem they had.  Had they found one mafia member on any of those days, they would have had several more chances.

This game had five more players, 17.  In it, there were five townie roles and five mafia roles, leaving seven normal, everyday townies.  Two mafia members began the game with immunity to the investigator, three did not.  The spokesman and PigPen were both roles that didn't even come into play this game, except for unification.  The vigilante role did, sort-of, and the Vote-changing role really just hurt the townies.  In the end, though, by the last day, two mafia members had been killed, and two more, of five, were known.  A sixth mafia member would be added, taken directly from the townies.  That's what's troubling.  The townies found the mafia members at a moderate pace, it's true, they did, but they had no chance.  They found the other townie roles at a lightening pace, but they had no chance.  Despite a mafia member dying on day one, because a mafia member did not die on the second day, the game was lost.  That fact that a mafia member died on day 3 made no difference, because the day 4 vote was completely tied up by the mafia, no matter what the outcome.  No matter how the townies voted, even if they all voted together on day 4, there would be no possible way for the townies to win the vote.  The game was absolutely over after the second day.

Let me reiterate that.  The game was over the second day.  Let's imagine that RAB wasn't voted off on the first day, that NickMitch, or some other normal townie was.  Who was investigated?  Gylldas, a townie.  That means, had RAB lived, the townies still would have been equally as clueless as they were on the day 2 that occurred.  Not to mention, the "Charlie Brown" role wouldn't have been able to broadcast the message, since RAB wouldn't have learned the role until the end of the first night.

But this is what bothered me the most:  The comparison of how the mafia played to how the townies played.  Decoyman mentioned ideal scenarios for the townies to act with, and it turned out most of them used their abilities, with the exception of PigPen, to their fullest extent.  Charlie Brown exposed himself to nearly everyone.  I even hit a mafia member.  The townies all knew each other, for the most part, except for Toruresu, who was recruited by the mafia.  Had PigPen done things proper, though, there would have been no impact on the game, since he's got a passive ability, and the mafia wasn't going to hit him, anyways.

He then goes on to say that the mafia used their abilities in chorus with each other.  That's something that should happen every game when the mafia has abilities, because, let's face it, the mafia has complete trust of each other.  Even Sally wasn't going to betray the mafia, as her betrayal conditions were much more slim than Schroeder's.  I don't think it's fair to say that the townies should have worked together better, when the fact was, one had a counter-motive to work with the group, and only one other had an ability that could have been useful in the time frame given, and it was, in fact, used to hit a mafia member.  The fact that RAB, Marcie, died, had no bearing on the outcome of the game.  The fact that we knew the godfather on Day 3, and if I were to tell people he was the Godfather, it would have had no outcome on the game, even if he was voted out.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that despite the townies being organized, the only chance was, indeed, a lucky guess on day one or two's vote, since in both cases, it would have taken lucky guesses to kill a second mafia member by the end of Day 2.

The contrast to the game mentioned before was that with slimmer numbers, the townies had until the end of Day 3 to survive, and that was with their only "hope," the investigator role dead on Day 1.  In that game, the chances the townies had were better.  This game gave the townies very little hope to begin with.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #114 on: October 31, 2008, 07:47:07 PM »
Thanks so much for singling me out when there was no real opportunity for me to use my power and you even admit that it wouldn't have mattered.
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Offline stevey

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #115 on: October 31, 2008, 08:27:03 PM »
Yes, where is the story? I want to see what you did with my little change of heart.

Stayed up debating instead of writing, then I've been at work all day. It'll have to wait till I get home from work in a few hours! I promise, it's on its way!


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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #116 on: October 31, 2008, 08:44:49 PM »
Thanks so much for singling me out when there was no real opportunity for me to use my power and you even admit that it wouldn't have mattered.

We should have broadcast you as the investigator or as the vigilante, to try to draw hits to you, I will say that, but you didn't want to risk putting your name out there.  Still, it wouldn't have made much of a difference, you were investigated the first night by the mafia, anyways.  There's not much your role could have done, but had you done it, the odds are it wouldn't have mattered.  The same goes on Day 2, I could have tried to hit someone on Day 2, but the mafia was blocking my ability.  Had I tried to use my ability more, it wouldn't have mattered, but at least, then, we could say we played our best.

Offline decoyman

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #117 on: October 31, 2008, 09:09:27 PM »
1) Forget the roles. First and foremost, townies must rely on sound townie logic fundamentals (compare voting trends/records, be watchful for contradicting statements and conflicting styles of play compared with other games, etc.). This also means that they shouldn't go blabbing their roles around to everyone they see, especially if that someone's name starts with a "K" and ends with a "hushrenada." ;) (this was the biggest mistake of the game, if you ask me). It's just like any other sport - you can't win without sound fundamentals. I don't remember if it was vudu or thatguy, but one of you was using those fundamentals when you noticed Maxi acting weird. And guess what - it led you to a mafia member! Another one is what I mentioned before about Khush saying he was a townie at the beginning, while Marcie was still alive – when it was decided he was mafia, it should've been a dead giveaway that he was the godfather from that statement alone. If you'd looked at voting records, you'd also see that most of the mafia members voted similarly, at least to start. Yeah, the game ended on Day 4, so there wasn't a lot, but there was enough to arouse suspicion. There was enough data there that, once Maxi was voted out, you should've been able to guess all the other mafia members. One of the things I always like to do when I'm a townie is compile voting records. Maybe that was done behind the scenes this time, and if so, then good. But if not, why not?

Further, this spills over into the "use all tools at your disposal" realm, and players' smarts are definitely tools. Take poor Stevey. Although Stevey has poor grammar/spelling, he's smart. Yes, he's silly at times with his "VEDETTA/VENDATTA"s, but when he gets down to it, he's proven he's good at reading between the lines in mafia, game after game. Yet, I don't know how many times I've seen him ignored or not taken seriously, as was the case this game. Also, let's list the veteran players who were on the side of the townies this game. Pale, Toruresu, vudu, thatguy, Dasmos, nickmitch, stevey. I've seen all these guys kick butt at mafia before, and was surprised that they couldn't come together to kick some butt this game.

2) Townies also had bad luck with the day 1 vote-out. That's just cruddy, I don't know what else to say about that. But does it show the lack of balance? Did it doom the townies? Not by a long shot. All the way up till Day 4, they had a chance to win the game.

3) Finally, roles. There were so many awesome uses for the roles for the townies... creative, game-impacting uses of the roles. Toruresu proved how powerful Schroeder's role was when he switched - the problem comes back to the fundamentals - your identities had all been compromised! After that point, it was like shooting fish in a barrel for the mafia. But that wasn't the only cool thing about that role. Here's another tactic which I envisioned could be used: Remember poor Oohhboy? The sicko who couldn't get to his computer to vote, and was in danger of being killed due to inactivity? Toru's power could've saved him. I was careful (and even italicized the rule in his role description) to say that his role has the power to attribute an official vote to a person. So, that would've meant Oohhboy didn't need to die. You guys didn't think beyond the common tactics enough, you just let Khush lead you around.

I still wish I'd added a townie win condition where roled townies would win if the townies won. That is the only balance issue I see. Everything else had a check, a balance, a counter.

5) Gameplan. How early is too early to start formulating an endgame strategy? It's never too early. That was what lured Toru over to the mafia, if you ask me. He was presented with a clear, well-thought-out plan that would allow him to win, which is pretty much everyone's goal in this game, right? If the townies had been thinking like I was and making strategies for the next day, and the next, and the next, I believe Toru wouldn't have been so easliy swayed. As is, I don't believe there was a gameplan, other than to live day-to-day. That's just no way to win when you're up against someone who most definitely DOES have a long-term strategy. Bobby Fischer would tell you the same thing.

Dang, got into it again. Story'll have to come later. :-X
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #118 on: October 31, 2008, 09:32:53 PM »
Had that rule been in place I would have played the game more like thatguy wanted, I've never won in Mafia before and being in the position I was in I was playing a bit conservatively to try and survive.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #119 on: October 31, 2008, 10:32:40 PM »
Decoyman I think you are stalling with the story till midnight.
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #120 on: October 31, 2008, 11:23:06 PM »
Thatguy - The game wasn't over on Day 4. It only ended because Toruresu took our offer. Toru could have used his ability to switch a mafia vote from Pale to GP, the bomber. In the explosion, it could very well have been a mafia member would go down with GP. That was my biggest fear. That Toru may try to betray us. He could have even voted Pale to pretend he was with us but use his ability silently against the mafia. Thus on Day 4, the vote could have gone 3 Pale, 4 GP. I didn't want to bring this up to protect Toruresu a bit but people keep talking about how unwinnable the game is for the townies. There's your answer.
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Offline Dasmos

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #121 on: November 01, 2008, 12:36:12 AM »
Yes, the answer is Toru is a jerk.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #122 on: November 01, 2008, 12:59:39 AM »
Right, so, essentially, the only way for the townies to have won after day 2 was for the player who had no logical reason to to betray the townies.  The mafia was able to provide a clear path to victory, because they had a clear path to victory.

The issue wasn't finding out the mafia members.  Decoyman, if you talked to Khush regularly, you'd know he's always a big fan of joining the mafia if it's possible for him via the rules.

As far as things go, blabbing the roles really wouldn't have mattered.  On Day 3, I was investigated, so when it was safe for me to hit again, he'd be able to block the hit then, anyways.  In fact, telling him my role was the only chance I'd have to hit someone in the mafia, by lying about my target to him, and trying to pretend I was hitting a townie.  Didn't work.

As far as stevey goes, sometimes he plays well, sometimes he doesn't.  The whole game, he was against Khush because it's what he does, he suspects Khush until there isn't a reason to suspect Khush, when Khush is dead.  That's not a good way to play the game.  The fact was, Khush was talking to everyone, but making no progress this game, as far as new friends, new people to work with, or anything like that.  That's what set things off, and why I absolutely believed Toruresu's message, and also why it was all more important to tell Khush my role, to feign belief that he was a good guy. 

The fact is, everyday, up until day 3, most people voted in blocks.  If there's four alive mafia players, and five votes each for two players, there's not much reason to crucify someone.  The trap we set that Maxi walked into was just an attempt to see if he'd jump on another bandwagon, but it didn't matter at that point, because by day 3, there was no reason for Toruresu not to take the mafia's offer.  The mafia's offer existed and worked despite two mafia members already being dead.

While Toruresu could've played to hope for a townie victory, there wasn't anything sure in that, Khush, whereas the mafia scenario, from day 3 on, was a sure thing, an absolutely positive, working path.  That path was possible for a few reasons, the first of which being that the godfather's hit didn't stop even if he died.  I'm not going to argue about the semantics of the logic behind that, I believe differently than you do about it, mostly because there should be some advantage to the townies for killing the godfather, the player who is most unlikely to be found, by his role's capabilities.  It created a position in which Khush could safely message Toruresu, since losing either him or Maxi made absolutely no difference at that point, mafia wise.

The second aspect was just the overwhelming size of the mafia.  Beginning (since Spak was chosen at the start) with nearly a 3:1 ratio creates a very difficult situation.  It actually grew to be greater than a 3:1 ratio, just too large of a mafia for the townies to deal with.  It seems to me that the townie/mafia ratio might fit better at 4:1, rather than 3:1, and never should it be able to eclipse that, because the townies need time to find irregularities and inconsistencies in the vote.  You'll notice, Decoyman, that the townies did find three (counting Toruresu) of the four remaining mafia members by day 4.  Find me another game that the mafia has won where the townies have voted out 1/3 of the mafia on the fourth day, and know 3/4 of the rest.  Look at the last game we had, an incredibly balanced game, where it took several days to vote out the first mafia member, but the game wasn't over.

In fact, last game, the first mafia member wasn't voted out until the fifth day!  There were four more players, I believe, but when there were no mafia members dead at day 5, and the townies still were able to win, that just goes to show the townies do need time to find mafia to have a chance at the game.  My issue isn't with Khush's strategy, I don't see who wouldn't aim for about the same thing.  It's that the townies killed two mafia members in the first three days, and that didn't mean squat because of the size of the mafia possible with the betrayal.  Essentially, all the mafia had to do to win the game was find Toruresu and make sure they took a hit every night.  You already said that on day 3, my hit wouldn't have gone through, because Khush targetted me earlier that night, so it didn't matter.  You made it abundantly clear that if I hit a townie on Day 2, despite finding the Great Pumpkin, that I'd die.  The basics were too many mafia members, not strong enough townie powers, Sally was too powerful with the roles available.  Those three things are what unbalanced the game when bundled together, and the Lucy role was just almost impossible with the sheer size of the mafia.  Even had I been able to tell who Lucy was, by that time, the mafia would know my role and kill me/block me from doing it from their own abilities.

And Khush, I don't think arguing that there was a pathway out for Toruresu to secure a win is a good idea, because if he teamed with you, there was a 100% chance of victory from the start of Day 3, and if he teamed against you, the odds of a townie victory where still very, very low.  Any player with the goal of winning would have no choice but to side with you in that event.  Not to mention, even if the townies were to win the game, he'd because the mafia would hit him after he betrayed them.

Offline RABicle

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #123 on: November 01, 2008, 01:55:00 AM »
Further, this spills over into the "use all tools at your disposal" realm, and players' smarts are definitely tools. Take poor Stevey. Although Stevey has poor grammar/spelling, he's smart. Yes, he's silly at times with his "VEDETTA/VENDATTA"s, but when he gets down to it, he's proven he's good at reading between the lines in mafia, game after game. Yet, I don't know how many times I've seen him ignored or not taken seriously, as was the case this game.
You've got to be kidding. I'm pretty sure stevey has never at any stage been killed by the mafia because they know he's no asset to the townies.
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4
« Reply #124 on: November 01, 2008, 03:20:36 AM »
Hey, I get what you're saying, Thatguy. And don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what you are saying. It's just that this is Decoyman's first hosting and I don't want to see him get attacked to much. A first game hardly ever goes smoothly. The Mafia Hall of Fame will attest to that. Most of the games by first time hosts often have some kind of flaw.

But I do want to mention a couple last things. First, telling me your roles wasn't neccessarily a bad thing. This game I wanted to keep the townie roles around as long as possible and as a means of cover since I felt it would help my case of innocence with only townies dying while the roles lived.

Second, I wouldn't have hit Toruresu if he had betrayed us. After all, it would only take Sally's death to make him mafia so maybe the townies would hit Sally first by mistake. If things went south, I'd still want to hold out hope that maybe we could still get that extra mafia member and the number we would need to win. I'd want to take him out for not taking the offer but he could still be made to join unwillingly. You can't let emotion cloud rational thinking.
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