Topic: Its the "Nintendo is the tiku tiku " debacle all over again!!

[NWR_pap64]

Years ago, during the N64 years some gamers created the belief that Nintendo only made games for little kids, thanks to its easily approachable franchises with cute colors, cartoony designs and loony music. Sony and even Sega made a killing off of this, dividing our gaming nation in half and creating a fanbase that hated Nintendo for the sole fact that they were a very tiku tiku company.

This belief carried onto the GC years, but would calm down for a bit.

They say that history repeats itself in odd ways, and this, my friends, a bad case of deja vu.

With Nintendo's newfound success with the DS, Wii and blue ocean strategy hardcore games are starting to believe that Nintendo no longer cares about them and want to appeal to the soccer moms and non players of the world.

Sound familiar?

It should. The whole "hardcore vs. casual" debacle is a repeat of the "Nintendo is the tiku tiku!" scandal of the 64 bit years. You might even say its the bastard child of the of the tiku tiku issue, born out of the same spite and anger of years past.

Think about this for a bit...

Back during the tiku tiku era, fans were upset because they were being labeled as childish for enjoying Nintendo's games. This was fueled by Nintendo's beliefs that their games should be enjoyed by everyone and transcend age and become timeless classics. Even with this logic in mind, fans still criticized Nintendo for not being edgy, mature and full of attitude. In other words, they wanted Nintendo to do the same thing Sony and various third parties were doing at the time; make games that crossed the line and made players all cool and "mature".

Returning to the present, now fans are annoyed at the fact that Nintendo has forgotten all about the core and is focusing way too much on the casual side of things. Fans basically want what the 360 and PS3 have; polygon crunching, HD fantasy, extremely hardcore games with lots of online options. Or at the very least, complex games featuring their beloved characters. Because they are too mature and extreme players to enjoy things like Wii Sports...

You all know how the tiku issue played out, and EVERYONE knows how the casual issue is being handled.

I just wonder what issue will arise that will get fans very upset and question Nintendo's integrity...

EDIT: After being pwned by the tiku tiku censoring I realized something. Everytime someone complains about Nintendo's casual approach and makes a thread about it, the whole post should be censored in hilarious ways. "I am terrible poster" is not enough...

[Deguello]

What I find interesting is that the games Nintendo has developed have more or less stayed the same.

If Animal Crossing is no longer a "core" game like many postulate, then it stands to reason that Nintendo has apparently been making these games for a long time.  So the only thing that changed were the people on the internet.

And you make an observation that you did nothing with. 

Remember when it was "NINTENDO IS TEH I am a terrible poaster. ?"
Now apparently it's "NINTENDO IS TEH CASUAL"
What happened?  Oh that's right.  ADULTS started playing.  Real adults.  You know, the kind that are 30 and 40 and professionals.  Can't say "I am a terrible poaster. " when you have a bonafide, professional, non-internet-video-game-message-board-dweller, ADULT playing a Nintendo thing. 

OH **** QUICK FIND SOMETHING
"I am a terrible poaster. ?"  No that won't work, we just covered that
"Girly?" They still aren't the majority of DS and Wii players.
"I am a terrible poaster. ?"  No!
"Casual?"  AHA!  Bingo.  Generation label found.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Again....

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Nintendo is doing a fantastic job of shaking up the landscape.

Time for some BWii (way more mature than Medal of Homer).

[NWR_pap64]

And you make an observation that you did nothing with.

Out of morbid curiosity, was that aimed at me for making the thread, or the people on the internet that labeled Nintendo as casual?

[Deguello]

It was aimed at you.  The observation that the same people behind "Kiddy" are the same people behind "casual."

The hard truth is that Nintendo hasn't changed much.  Nintendo has been making weird little games like Wii sports for ages, like Pac-Man Vs. and Hey You Pikachu.  The people who have REALLY changed are internet fans who believed they were the ones "keeping Nintendo afloat."  They are having a mental dilemma where they don't wanna leave the club because it just got popular and but reason it's popular is because of new people that they feel the club is catering to specifically by doing the same thing it's always done.

[NWR_pap64]

It was aimed at you.  The observation that the same people behind "I am a terrible poaster. " are the same people behind "casual."

Ah. That's not the case. Sorry if I worded it wrong, but the point of the thread is to point out how similar these Nintendo issues were and how they were affecting the fanbase.

Like Pro pointed it, I was just pointing out how the way Nintendo does things always make a lot of fans upset.

[NWR_insanolord]

Nintendo is the same Nintendo they've always been, but they have changed the way they market their products, and that's why they're seen as casual-focused. Nintendo isn't doing much more that is specifically casually oriented than Sony did last generation, but Nintendo goes out of their way to advertise their stuff to the casual/nongamer set while Sony focused its marketing almost entirely on the core gamers. Sony could have sold a lot more Eyetoys and copies of Singstar and Buzz if they'd marketed strongly in the right places but they chose not to. Nintendo made a smart business decision but they're paying for it in how they're perceived by a certain group of people.

[ShyGuy]

That's a great insight insanolord.

[SixthAngel]

There is one problem with the argument.

Fans were never the ones complaining with these words.  They were and are owners of other systems that try to justify their purchase by bringing down the other consoles.

Also being called casual actually helps Nintendo with the majority of people who play videogames even if some people try to make it a slur.

[Tanookisuit]

I am a terrible poaster. .  Interesting auto-replace.  Maybe we should say Kid-E.

[EasyCure]

What I find interesting is that the games Nintendo has developed have more or less stayed the same.

If Animal Crossing is no longer a "core" game like many postulate, then it stands to reason that Nintendo has apparently been making these games for a long time.  So the only thing that changed were the people on the internet.

Exactly. Hasn't Nintendo always been making games "For Everyone"??

All this arguing is stupid (although interesting to read, gotta love fanboy on fanboy hate) and so i won't be participating in any more of these types of threads. Too bad i'm not still in Mafia, the funhouse would be more active for me if i were...

[Plugabugz]

(although interesting to read, gotta love fanboy on fanboy hate)

Is there a DVD?

[EasyCure]

no, just HOTNESS GONE WILD

[Mikintosh]

Yeah, I like Dequello's point. These games have always been meant for kids, and I think there's no problems with adults playing them too, but it's not like the latter should be dictating would the company should be making just because they're "wiser", I guess. Kids seem to like these casual games more than epic ones like Zelda right now, so while there's enough adults to make up the difference for that title, you can't blame Nintendo for wanting to serve their base with simpler fare, to accommodate shorter attention-spans (including mine, even though I'm a ripe old...21).

And the Eyetoy would have failed anyway, it's a stupid product.

[Ian Sane]

Nintendo has always made games for everyone.  The only problem is that their method of doing so has always been a little weird.  They think that to make games for everyone they need to make nearly EVERY game for everyone.

In the past the results were no so noticable because the third party support on the NES and SNES was so vast.  Now you might think that back then consoles were really more for kids so the issue didn't exist.  Well even then it was obvious that Mario and Castlevania had different styles.  Mario was more cutesy while Castlevania had as close to normally proportioned people as the graphics would allow and a more serious tone.  On the SNES I didn't really notice that aside from Super Metroid almost all of Nintendo's games had a cartoony style.  When you've got Street Fighter II and Contra 3 at your disposal you don't notice because the overall library of the console itself is so varied.  But it was there.  Sega makes Virtua Racing which tries to look like real racing cars and Nintendo makes Stunt Race FX and puts eyes on the cars.

When all the third parties left on the N64 it became very noticable.  Suddenly 90% of the console's best games were from Nintendo themselves and the cutesy family-friendly design was blatantly obvious.  Nintendo could no longer blend in.  They have the idea that to make a lineup that everyone can enjoy then everyone has to be able to enjoy almost every game.  So everything by default becomes "kid-e" because little kids can't handle mature themes but teens and adults can in theory like something more inoffensive.  Now image conscious teens and young adults DON'T but they COULD which has always been Nintendo's mistake with marketing and image.

The Playstation 1 & 2 were everyone consoles in much the same way the NES and SNES were.  Those consoles were not "every game for everyone" but rather had a library where everyone could find something they liked.  It didn't matter if you were a super hardcore gamer or a more casual one or a kid or an adult.  You had something to play.  Nintendo tries to target five people by making ten games they assume all five could like.  Sony would target those same five by making two games specifically for each person.  Same amount of games but everyone is more satisfied with two games they REALLY like instead of ten games they like enough but isn't really what they were looking for.

The problem with this blue ocean stuff is that Nintendo's definition of "everyone" has expanded to, well, be very literal.  So now you get stuff like Mario Kart being "casualized" and such.  The casuals are the easiest to offend much like kids used to be.  So it gives the impression of a slant in their favour because if Nintendo is to make everyone games that have to start by making sure it doesn't scare away the casuals.

This causes frustration with parts of the fanbase because I think a fair amount of Nintendo fans want a more balanced Nintendo and no one wants Nintendo to actually adhere to the label.  Not only did we not want Nintendo to be called "kid-e" we didn't want them to actually be that.  You know why Wind Waker caused such a stink?  Because Zelda was one of the few N64 first party games that the "Nintendo is kid-e" people didn't touch because they couldn't.  Zelda was cool.  Wind Waker made Zelda not cool.  It made it look cuter and cartoony and thus made it look more like a kid's game.  It gave the impression that Nintendo was adhereing to the "kid-e" label.  So when Nintendo does an E3 conference that is almost entirely casual focused and only have like two core games even annouced for the remainder of the year (both of which would fall into the "kid-e" accusation, especially AC) and focuses mostly on a very disappointing looking project like Wii Music they look like they really are "lol casualintendo!" and I don't think anyone wants them to be that.

"Every game for everyone" is the wrong way to do it and they've never learned that.  That's why the Wii is the "non-gamer console" and not just a great console.

[Sarail]

And to think... if Nintendo would have just gone with CDs during the N64 era, instead of cartridges, we wouldn't even be going through this ordeal.  o_O

[DAaaMan64]

Discs suck nuts. Always and forever.


Flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ALL

[Smash_Brother]

I think there's some merit to this discussion because I think the Nintendo hardcore were what helped push the Wii into the phenomenon that it is now.

For about a week after its release, Wiis weren't leaving store shelves. Then, they suddenly caught fire and people were lining up at the prospect of a store receiving a Wii shipment.

So what happened in that week? I'll tell you what happened: Nintendo's loyal fans bought the Wii and their friends and family all got to play Wii Sports and immediately decided that they had to have one. If Nintendo's hardcore fanbase hadn't bought the Wii, I've no doubt that it would've taken a great deal longer for it to come to the point where it's at now and it might've never reached this point: there's a certain amount of buzz something needs to receive before it's then carried onward to infinitely more buzz, as was the case with the Wii.

So yes, I think Nintendo does owe a debt of gratitude to their loyal fans for bringing the Wii into homes and allowing it to work its viral magic. I personally "sold" no fewer than 10 Wiis to people who never would've cared otherwise, and those Wiis in turn no doubt "sold" Wiis to other households.

Also, it wasn't that Nintendo's E3 was non-hardcore which irked me so much as the fact that it was just embarrassingly bad. First, you had what's-her-face who was trying so hard to be liked by the audience that she instead came across as insecure, something you never want to do on stage. Then there was the fact that Wii Music just didn't look at all fun.

I'm not the type to dismiss something as casual: I love Wii Fit and I love how much my mother loves it (I bought her one because I knew she'd love it), but there's a difference between "casual" and "dumbed down" and unless there's some immensely hidden depth to Wii Music which I'm not seeing, then it looks far too simple, even for the most casual of players.

Lastly, there was the drummer, who didn't look like he was drumming but instead looked like he was flailing around in the throes of a seizure. It was embarrassing. Nintendo has tried to give the impression that motion control is more than just waggle and this asshole was on stage at Nintendo's own E3 conference REDEFINING waggle.

No worries, though. I have faith that 3rd parties are seeing the opening Nintendo is leaving and are going to go for it (starting with games like The Conduit and Madworld).

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

nahhhhh

casual gamer families and their kids were already lined up on the eve of launch to get their expensive wii bundles, with nothing left for me that evening and the rest of the week.  stores just told me "sorry, you wouldn't let us polevault your arse. come back for the next shipment"

[Smash_Brother]

I saw a few myself, but like I said, I "sold" 10 Wiis personally.

You can't tell me you didn't sell a few to people who had no clue what it was (or had heard about it but never seen or tried it).

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Sure, like 2.  About 6 months after launch.

The casuals broke their HDTVs on youtube without the hardcore's help well enough.

[EasyCure]

I think there's some merit to this discussion because I think the Nintendo hardcore were what helped push the Wii into the phenomenon that it is now.

For about a week after its release, Wiis weren't leaving store shelves. Then, they suddenly caught fire and people were lining up at the prospect of a store receiving a Wii shipment.

Thats where i stopped reading and LOL'd instead at flashbacks of that November...

[Smash_Brother]

Sure, like 2.  About 6 months after launch.

The casuals broke their HDTVs on youtube without the hardcore's help well enough.

Oh. I thought you were a Nintendo fan or something.

Thats where i stopped reading and LOL'd instead at flashbacks of that November...

I had a number of reports of people seeing them sitting on shelves. Maybe it was selective to my area.

But that aside, are people here denying the viral nature of the Wii? I personally saw it bring lapsed gamers back into the market and bring in people who never liked consoles, but that was only after they played it at my place. If not for me, they wouldn't have had that exposure.

The proof is in the pudding, and I've no doubt that the Nintendo hardcore did a wonderful job of pedaling the pudding.

The fact that the pudding was good enough to appeal to the non-gamer doesn't change the fact that many wouldn't have tried it without someone they know buying one first.

[EasyCure]

Sure, like 2.  About 6 months after launch.

The casuals broke their HDTVs on youtube without the hardcore's help well enough.

Oh. I thought you were a Nintendo fan or something.

Thats where i stopped reading and LOL'd instead at flashbacks of that November...

I had a number of reports of people seeing them sitting on shelves. Maybe it was selective to my area.

But that aside, are people here denying the viral nature of the Wii? I personally saw it bring lapsed gamers back into the market and bring in people who never liked consoles, but that was only after they played it at my place. If not for me, they wouldn't have had that exposure.

The proof is in the pudding, and I've no doubt that the Nintendo hardcore did a wonderful job of pedaling the pudding.

The fact that the pudding was good enough to appeal to the non-gamer doesn't change the fact that many wouldn't have tried it without someone they know buying one first.

It must of been because my area was all sold out, from where i worked at the time (manhattan) to my neck of the woods (lower westchester county, NY).

I'm not arguing the viral nature of the wii's success either but to claim that You as a "hardcore" gamer is the reason behind the boom in casual sales.. i'm sorry but its just BS to me. It's not like Nintendo didn't have their product featured on the types of programs that these new "casual" gamers watch, for example; The Today Show, Good Morning America, etc. Even CNN ran peices on the Wii as well as a bunch of other shows that might of had a "hot products for Xmas" presentation on their program.

Sure i know a lot of people that've heard about the wii from friends/kids, whom might be "hardcore" gamers, but alot of others know about it from seeing it on tv or seeing it played. I hate to keep bringing this up my time at the Nintendo World Store but there was an even split between the Soccer Mom casual types and the business man type who "saw it on tv and had to try it myself", the ones who've probably never touched a video game before.

To declare that You and the gamers like you are the reason the wii succeeded reaching the "casual" audience is very High And Mighty of you, S_B and it saddens me you'd go that route. Its not even the fact that you're glorifying yourself as the reason Wii is successful but that you're lumping 'hardcore' gamers like me and alot of people here who've been with nintendo for years into that as well.

You kind of sound like the kid who really liked band-X but band-X got a hid song on the radio and now EVERYONE knows them because of that one song, so you feel like they sold out for making a song that casual band-X listeners would enjoy.