Topic: Theory about third party support

[NWR_Lindy]

All of those people that want stuff like Mass Effect already have a PS3 or 360 because those games are already on those systems.  And those types of games - massive, graphics-intensive RPGs - are done better on those systems.  I never said that you couldn't do RPGs on Wii - but there's a reason why Final Fantasy XIII isn't being done on Wii.  Whether or not you think FFXIII is a good game or a bad game is a separate issue, but if you want those types of games you don't own a Wii.  If you do, you're kidding yourself because those games aren't going to come out.  You'll have Namco making Tales of Awesometasia 3 instead.

If that's your thing, that's cool.  But if the Wii is such a no-brainer, why didn't Square-Enix make DQ IX for Wii?  Because RPGs aren't a proven commodity on Wii, while they are for DS.  Also, DS development is much cheaper, and the DS is ubiquitous in Japan (whereas the Wii is currently being outsold by the PSP and DS on a regular basis), so you have a guaranteed massive payoff.  The Wii is considered a risk right now for anything besides family or casual-skewing fare.  That may very well change, but that's how it is for now.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Why did I miss this? T_T Oh why did I disappear for a month and miss the fun? T_T

Welcome to classic PlanetGameCube.

[Flames_of_chaos]

If that's your thing, that's cool.  But if the Wii is such a no-brainer, why didn't Square-Enix make DQ IX for Wii?  Because RPGs aren't a proven commodity on Wii, while they are for DS.  Also, DS development is much cheaper, and the DS is ubiquitous in Japan (whereas the Wii is currently being outsold by the PSP and DS on a regular basis), so you have a guaranteed massive payoff.  The Wii is considered a risk right now for anything besides family or casual-skewing fare.  That may very well change, but that's how it is for now.

So by your reasoning RPGs shouldn't exist on the PS3 because its barely outselling the PS2 in Japan and the 360 can't even beat the PS2 in Japanese weekly sales. And don't forget how expensive it is to develop on the 360 and PS3!!!!

[GoldenPhoenix]

The reason why FF13 isn't coming to Wii is because Square-Enix thought PS3 was going to be the market leader, that is it. There is no way a company in their right mind would create anymore big name franchises that are exclusive to PS3 anymore. Also we forget that DS took a couple years before it even began to see any RPGs of any significance.

[DAaaMan64]

LOL maybe, but I really don't believe FF14 will come to Wii.

[ShyGuy]

considering how slow FF13 has been to release, FF14 won't come out on any current gen system.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

LOL maybe, but I really don't believe FF14 will come to Wii.

LOL maybe, but I really don't believe PROFIT will come to S-E.

[DAaaMan64]

Square and FF in general is kinda starting to look washed-up.  But I don't like FF so whatever.

[SixthAngel]

Square and FF in general is kinda starting to look washed-up.  But I don't like FF so whatever.

Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are SquarEnix's biggest games  and while both are RPGs both are so different.

Final Fantasy is a game that (after FF7) relies on having top of the line visuals, huge cinematics, and a different often more complicated spell/special move system to tell an epic story.

Dragon Quest uses whatever graphics are appropriate and cheap to make a game that is simple and appropriate for their giant audience to tell an epic story.  While I haven't played the only Japan games they seem to keep the spell/special move formula simple from what I played as well.

I predict that Final Fantasy will quickly become a huge money loser do to the enormous investment and the incredible amount of time it takes to make.  The non-Wii audience is small and they simply can't follow the market when it takes 2+ years to make a game.  I now see how Square and Enix were so different before they joined, before I thought the acquisition would work because they were the two biggest RPG developers but now I see the huge difference between the companies and don't think both philosophies will survive anymore.

[Ceric]

RPG's are always late to any system.  They take longer to plan and like but it just seems to be when the niche userbase is seen to fall in for those.

[DAaaMan64]

Isn't the RPG scene shrinking anyway?

[Arbok]

The reason why FF13 isn't coming to Wii is because Square-Enix thought PS3 was going to be the market leader, that is it. There is no way a company in their right mind would create anymore big name franchises that are exclusive to PS3 anymore. Also we forget that DS took a couple years before it even began to see any RPGs of any significance.

Yep, fully agree. Final Fantasy 13 started development way before the PS3 or Wii were released, and the choice to make it for the PS3 seems obvious given most companies assumed it was going to be the market leader. The fact that the game has been delayed and delayed, and is now going to release on the 360 as well, without a shadow of a doubt shows that Square-Enix regrets that choice. Consequently, I find it odd that Silks would cite the title as defense in this situation because of that.

[Adrock]

Yeah, basically. I can only imagine the collective "ffffffff*ck" at SquareEnix's board of directors meeting when they realized that the Wii was dominating the PS3. Kind of sad, but more funny than sad.

[Smash_Brother]

Isn't the RPG scene shrinking anyway?

Yes.

FF games have been consistently selling less and less. With the rise of casual gaming in Japan, console RPGs are going the way of the dodo. Handheld RPGs are still doing alright, considering you can play for 20-30 minutes on the bus/train on the way to work (commonplace in Tokyo), but a combined sitting time of 40 hours in front of a TV is hard to come by for older gamers (aka those with the money).

I actually don't see this big fight over RPGs being worth it. 40-80 hours? Honestly, who has that kind of time these days?

[ThePerm]

has third party support ever been in line with nintendo since the snes days?

third parties arent tied to a console, so they follow lame surveys and target demographics, which doesn't necessarily follow common sense or logic

[KDR_11k]

I actually don't see this big fight over RPGs being worth it. 40-80 hours? Honestly, who has that kind of time these days?

Everyone. Or they would if they could play it in short bursts while still having fun (over the years even 5 minutes of play a day adds up to a long time). Of course few games of that size are interesting when played in short bursts (or when played for so long) as you might spend half your time on one cutscene already and multi-hour battles just have to be aborted with a power-off then.

[NWR_Lindy]

Final Fantasy games as we know them will not come to the Wii.  They're big-budget semi-CGI movies that just don't lend themselves to the Wii's technical limitations.  They're all about technical overload.

Now, if S-E does a total about-face and basically changes their entire development philosophy, then we could see the next FF come to Wii.  S-E has certainly painted themselves into a corner by pretty much positioning every FF title as the graphical benchmark for each given console generation.  The Dragon Quest series was never really about being a graphical tour-de-force, so the series has a little bit of leeway and can release the next game on DS without having rioting in the street.

[Smash_Brother]

Everyone. Or they would if they could play it in short bursts while still having fun (over the years even 5 minutes of play a day adds up to a long time). Of course few games of that size are interesting when played in short bursts (or when played for so long) as you might spend half your time on one cutscene already and multi-hour battles just have to be aborted with a power-off then.

There's a certain amount of attention span required for gaming like this, since you're basically playing a time-release story that asks you to endure X hours of boredom (aka leveling) so that you can see the next chunk of storyline.

The more the play time is broken up into small increments, the more likely the player will be to either lose interest in the storyline or spend a longer period of time away from the game which results in even greater potential to lose interest. This is especially true if the game has a period of "lull" in it: if the player stops playing in the midst of this, it's often the death knell of the game play period.

The solution would be to break games up into "chapters" which would take 30-60 minutes at most. Each chapter would offer the players more storyline but with a feeling of conclusion at the end of each, as if each one is a leg of a journey being completed. This would be the more "casual" model of gaming for the RPG genre but wouldn't necessarily deduct anything in the way of gameplay or enjoyment.

By using the episodic content model for a retail game, it'll give the player a better place to start and end each gameplay session which would in turn greatly increase the chances that they'll play it all the way through.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Final Fantasy games as we know them will not come to the Wii.  They're big-budget semi-CGI movies that just don't lend themselves to the Wii's technical limitations.  They're all about technical overload.

Now, if S-E does a total about-face and basically changes their entire development philosophy, then we could see the next FF come to Wii.  S-E has certainly painted themselves into a corner by pretty much positioning every FF title as the graphical benchmark for each given console generation.  The Dragon Quest series was never really about being a graphical tour-de-force, so the series has a little bit of leeway and can release the next game on DS without having rioting in the street.

Must be why the series was on the weakest graphical system last generation right? Heck even the previous generation was the same. Seriously it all has to do with what they felt would have been the most profitable move which is why DQ9 is taking a visual downgrade to come to DS. It has little to do with technology and more to do with perceived sales.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Way to ride that logic train, Silks.

To your credit, big money CGI movies lend themselves well to piracy and p2p sharing, as FF: Advent Children has shown. OH WAIT, THAT DOESN'T WORK FOR SQUARE AT ALL.  Heck, expensive PS3s and expensive Blu-Ray media are also reasons piracy isn't helping the PS3 name unlike the rapid "growth" PSX and PS2 saw in Southeast Asia.

FF games as we used to know them (movies) will not come anymore.  The FF games as we know them today, Crystal Chronicles, Chocobo Whatso, anything else that starts with a C, are the mainstays.

[Ian Sane]

I think it's silly to point out the PS2 being the weakest hardware last gen.  It was still comparable.  Hell the only reason it wasn't as powerful as the Xbox and Gamecube was because it came out a year earlier.  The difference was minor.  Same with Playstation vs. N64 or Genesis vs. SNES.  There is a difference but not one as significant as the one between the Wii and the other two consoles.  The Wii is like a half generation step in between.  That's significantly different then previously top-of-the-line hardware surpassed by console with a later release date.  If the PS2 was just a barely enhanced PS1 and still had all that third party then you've got a fair comparison.  The Wii hardware is intentionally gimped and thus no other console really compares to it.  They all tried to just push the best hardware they could.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Um Ian N64 was a much more visually impressive system than the PS One and was more advanced. The only limitation was carts. Perhaps you also missed the part where they are creating a NEW DQ game for DS when the last one was on PS2? Or maybe you failed to see the point that Lindy was trying to make that S-E makes the FF games for the most powerful system when that has not been the case for the last two years. Square has ALWAYS created FF games not for the most powerful system but usually the current market leader.

[NWR_Lindy]

S-E was kinda between a rock and hard place with FF XII.  The Wii's weaker hardware didn't really allow them to make the game they wanted to make (I assume), so Sony was their only real option at the time.  The Xbox brand is brutal in Japan, as we all know.

What I don't get is why Crystal Chronicles is the only FF they've ever talked about for Wii.  You'd think they'd make a more traditional RPG to complement it, but no.

And the big-budget FF games will never go away, because there will always be a market for them.  They're "event games" like Halo, Metal Gear, Zelda, Mario, etc.  When they come out it's a big deal.

[GoldenPhoenix]

The Wii's weaker hardware didn't really allow them to make the game they wanted to make (I assume), so Sony was their only real option at the time.

That is not really true, FF13 was announced long before anyone had a clue about the success of Wii and the struggling of the PS3. It seems to be a matter of "We have too much invested now to turn back so lets make the best of it and at least make it on 360 as well to recoup out development and make some profit". Also I do not see how Square couldn't make a big budget, blockbuster FF game on Wii if they did it for PS2 why not Wii? The Wii may be weaker visually that doesn't mean it can't be just as grand as previous FF games.

It should be interesting though to see how they approach future FF games though now that things are starting to be more clear when it comes to userbase.

[Adrock]

I actually don't see this big fight over RPGs being worth it. 40-80 hours? Honestly, who has that kind of time these days?

I'd make time if Square Enix remade Final Fantasy VI (that's 6, not a typo of 7) the the Wii. I'm not high on remakes and ports, but I'd make an exception for a 3D remake of FFVI.

That is not really true, FF13 was announced long before anyone had a clue about the success of Wii and the struggling of the PS3. It seems to be a matter of "We have too much invested now to turn back so lets make the best of it and at least make it on 360 as well to recoup out development and make some profit". Also I do not see how Square couldn't make a big budget, blockbuster FF game on Wii if they did it for PS2 why not Wii? The Wii may be weaker visually that doesn't mean it can't be just as grand as previous FF games.

Are you aware of how much you are pwning in this thread?

Square Enix could make those kinds of games on the Wii and they should (costs less, larger installation base). They've already announced a couple exclusive 360 titles so I'm hoping they can do better than Final Fantasy Fables on the Wii.