Topic: Theory about third party support

[Nick DiMola]

Here is a list of my Wii games:

Third Party

• Blast Works: Build, Trade, Destroy
• Dewy's Adventure
• Elebits
• Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon
• Ghost Squad
• The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
• LostWinds
• Mercury Meltdown Revolution
• Nitrobike
• No More Heroes
• Octomania
• Okami
• Red Steel
• Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
• Sonic and the Secret Rings
• Speed Racer
• Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
• Toki Tori
• Trauma Center: New Blood
• Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure

First Party

• Endless Ocean
• Excite Truck
• Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
• Link's Crossbow Training
• Mario Kart Wii
• Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
• Super Mario Galaxy
• Super Paper Mario
• Super Smash Bros. Brawl
• WarioWare: Smooth Moves
• Wii Play
• Wii Sports

I don't get it, what's wrong with Wii 3rd party support? Do I want more purchaseable games? Sure. But is the support thus far abysmal? Far from it.

The Wii gets tons of shovelware for sure, but so has every single console leader every generation.

[Infernal Monkey]

Go play some video games, Ian.

[Mario]

Yep, and I could probably add 10 more to that third party list Mr. Jack.

IF THOSE GOOD THIRD PARTY GAMES WERE SELLING VERY WELL, A TREND WOULD START.

[Nick DiMola]

Yep, and I could probably add 10 more to that third party list Mr. Jack.

IF THOSE GOOD THIRD PARTY GAMES WERE SELLING VERY WELL, A TREND WOULD START.

Yeah exactly, I have a number of games I want still from 3rd parties, there are plenty of games to play that are great on the Wii. I have more games this (Nintendo) generation than any generation prior.

[Mario]

I still have twice as many Cube games, but that's like 1.5 years vs 5 years worth. Wii is clearly a step up, and while some are claiming "it's still not enough", those same people aren't participating in playing these titles.

[Nick DiMola]

I still have twice as many Cube games, but that's like 1.5 years vs 5 years worth. Wii is clearly a step up, and while some are claiming "it's still not enough", those same people aren't participating in playing these titles.

Well let me clarify, at this stage in the game (1.5 years in) I have more games than I had on the Cube in the same time period. Currently I have 32 Wii games (including WiiWare) and I have 85 Cube games, but at this rate I will easily end up with more Wii games.

[Mario]

Oh ok, i'm in a similar situation then. Except I only have about 55 Cube games, 85 is very impressive, i'm still expanding my Cube list but it will never reach that amount. I own a PS2 too though so it gets most of the third party releases just because they are cheaper and more common (recently bought PoP: Sands of Time, amazing game, but that's for another topic).

[Bill Aurion]

I have 20 Wii games (8 third party) versus 29 GC games (10 third party), and 12 of the 17 games on my Wii wish list are third party...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the third party support the Wii has at the moment, and it will only get better...

[KDR_11k]

Retail:
Rayman Raving Rabbids (garbage)
Zack & Wiki (pretty good)
Sonic and the Secret Rings (good fun so far)
Blastworks (bad campaign, good moddability and excellent content sharing system)

Wiiware:
Lost Winds (decent but way too short)
Toki Tori (most awesome!)
FFtl;dr (pretty repetitive but good)

Er, yeah, I don't have many. I'm a bargain bin hunter and there are very, VERY few bargain bin games on the Wii that are worth even their reduced price.

Hey, let's talk about a different problem: The Wii's lack of good bargain bin titles. Other consoles (except the DS) have bargain serieses like Player's Choice, Platinum and whatever else, the Wii has nothing. Nintendo even stated they don't plan on doing price drops so more people pay full price. The only price drops I see is when a game fails to meet expectations and the stores lower prices by themselves. Sure, gives more high price sales but anyone who's unwilling to pay that much will see a distorted image of the system's library, going for bargains means you end up with mostly bad games as the good ones remain full price indefinitely. It also causes purchase deadlock for me, the condition of waiting for the price drop on something, seeing the next big thing, dropping interest on the old thing for the new thing, waiting for a price reduction, repeat. The result is that I don't buy anything because I'm always given a reason to not buy anything yet.

While the same thing happens on the DS third parties have introduced their own bargain bin collections (THQ will price anything at 20€ after a while, as does Ubisoft) which often include a number of good games. Also full price is a bit lower for DS games than Wii games.

[Mario]

I've been lucky enough to find a ton of "unofficial" bargain bin titles here in Aus, sounds pretty rough for you over there. I've found some titles like SSX Blur, Mercury Meltdown for 1/3 their retail price. Otherwise I would not have tried them, but to be fair the same is the case with some Nintendo published games I have.

[Spinnzilla]

Need to look at the bright side we are getting plenty of very awesome looking "core" games that are wii exclusives in the coming months.  Deblob in sept, Deadly Creatures in Oct, Star Wars: Clone Wars in Nov, and in Q1 we got The Conduit and Madworld.  All of those are 3rd party.  Even the non-exclusives are enticing; Guitar Hero World Tour, Rock Band 2, Force Unleashed and World At World (just to name a few).

3rd Party support is looking pretty good IMO, I just think some of us are being a little cry babyish.

[Ian Sane]

Why is anyone pointing at Okami and saying "hey look you guys don't buy the games".  Okami is PLAYSTATION 2 GAME!  Why the HELL should anyone be expected to buy a game from last gen?  That would be like releasing Pitfall on the NES and getting all huffy if it didn't sell.  It doesn't matter if Okami is a good game.  The truth is it's a port from a system that is almost 8 years old.  No one bought a Wii to play Playstation 2 games.  Why would anyone when the PS2 is much cheaper and has more games to choose from?

This is part of the whole problem.  If you have to include last gen games in your list supporting "good" third party suppot then the third party support isn't very good at all.  No other market leading console had to put up with that crap.  Gradius III & IV was not a high profile third party release on the PS2 but on the Wii it would have been.  That's unacceptable.  Did any of you include Resident Evil 2 & 3 as notable Gamecube releases?

Though oddly enough no one includes the two third party games I have: MLB Power Pros and Guitar Hero 3 in their list.  Though Power Pros is also a PS2 game so I wouldn't have included it.

[Nick DiMola]

Who cares if Okami was a PS2 game? The fact is, it is an amazingly good game that added some very welcome Wii controls and opened up an overlooked title to a bigger crowd.

Your example with RE 2 and 3 isn't the same because those two brought literally nothing new to the table. Comparing Okami Wii to REmake would be more accurate. If they would've ported Okami and done nothing new with it, fine, but that is not the case. The changes made to the game were for the better, bringing in 16:9 support and Wii controls for the paintbrush.

[Bill Aurion]

Why is anyone pointing at Okami and saying "hey look you guys don't buy the games".

Why are you pointing out Okami and saying "Hey look this doesn't count" when there's still a solid list of more than 20 titles other than it that aren't "ports"? (and as Mr. Jack pointed out, "port" should be used very loosely)

This reminds me of the time Nintendo revealed that list of 15 or so DS games and you singled out Mario Basketball and complained about it...

[Ian Sane]

Comparing Okami Wii to REmake would be more accurate.

I think something like Skies of Arcadia Legends would be a better comparison only that was a game from the same generation.  REmake was made for the Gamecube from the ground up which is a lot different then a new control scheme.

"Why are you pointing out Okami and saying 'Hey look this doesn't count' when there's still a solid list of more than 20 titles other than that?"

Yeah because some modern Sonic game and Speed Racer and a bunch of junky Ubisoft crap like Raving Rabbits and Red Steel is so much better.  Nitrobike gets 50% on Game Rankings and someone with a straight face is trying to sell that to me as good third party support?

I'll give you Zack & Wiki, No More Heroes and maybe Elebits I guess out of that list of 20.  If I'm counting ports then RE4, Okami and Trauma Center are okay as well.

People did this on the Cube too.  Someone would complain that there wasn't anything to play in the next few months or third party support was weak or whatever and the big lists of mediocrity would pop out.  Those don't help.  It looks like you're trying to fill out the list.  Make a smaller list and make sure each game on that list is a big deal and it helps the argument.  If you asked me to list some good PS3 third party games I would list

GTA IV
Virtua Fighter V
Soul Calibur IV
Metal Gear Solid 4
Rock Band

Mostly sequels there but that's just off the top of my head anyway.  I don't think the PS3 is a very worthwhile console but I just listed off five pretty major games.  I don't even know the PS3 library that well because I'm not very interested in it but that list of five is pretty effective.  Much more so than a longer list of weaker titles would be.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I'll list some good 3rd party games now that are EXCLUSIVE to Wii:

-Smarty Pants (best trivia game I've played)
-Elebits
-Zack and Wiki
-RE: UC
-NMH
-We Love Golf
-Trauma Center
-Blast Works (Best user creation tool I've ever seen for any console)
-Boom Blox

Coming this Fall with some multi-platform that may actually justify purchasing TWO versions:

-Force Unleashed (Sounds like it could be good)
-Deadly Creatures (Very unique game)
-SPRay (adventure/puzzle game)
-Madden 2009 (I am actually getting the 360 and Wii version because they do different things)
-Fatal Frame (Hey I can hope)
-Spore (Still don't know much about the Wii version but Wright seems excited about it so hopefully it is a quality game)
-deBlob (Once again a promising game that is quite unique that is EXCLUSIVE to Wii)

[BeautifulShy]

So Ian what games do you have?

[Nick DiMola]

Ian that was just a list of Wii games I own. Given price I can justify every one of those games.

Also, Speed Racer is an awesome game.

[EasyCure]

The Okami argument is full of fail on both ends of the spectrum.

On one hand Capcom didn't do a god damn thing to promote it, did they? No.

Also not counting it as a good example of 3rd party support just because its an (upgraded) port of a last-gen game is pointless because to alot of people it might just be a new game. Not everyone owned a PS2 (yes its possible, I'm one of them) and probably never heard of Okami because they didnt own a PS2.

The game didn't sell well anyway (again, lack of advertisement) back then so all the people who didn't pick it up the first time have a reason to pick it up now because they finally know about it and heard it was good, plus an updated version would be nice. Then you have to see the potentil sales a new audience (gamer and non-gamer alike) that didn't know squat about it and think its a new game with good reviews.

I never heard about it until you all started talking about it here when the port was announced. I got excited cuz everyone praised the game (even the Zelda-clone comments sounded like a compliment to me). I'll admit i havent bought it but it is on my list of games i WILL get, and not just in the maybe pile.

[GoldenPhoenix]

For fun here are my Wii games:

First party
1.   Wii Sports (I think we know why this is good)
2.   Mario Kart Wii (Few will deny this is a quality game)
3.   Wii Fit (Not really a game but still well put together)
4.   Wii Play (Basically a $10 game)
5.   Zelda: TP (Um, don't think I need to elaborate here)
6.   MP3 (Same)
7.   Mario Strikers (Great fun with friends and family)
8.   Smash Brothers Brawl (same)
9.   BWii (Still a great strategy game)
10.   Endless Ocean (Amazing game that is extremely relaxing)
11.   Mario Galaxy (Um once again, no comment needed)
12.   WarioWare Smooth Moves (Quality title that has a fun multiplayer once you unlock it)
13.   Excitetruck (Surprisingly great, one of the better racers I've played)
14.   Super Paper Mario (Once again, quality title)
15.   Big Brain (Casual game that may not appeal to everyone but far from low quality)
16.   Mario Party 8 (My family still loves this series)
17.   Zelda Crossbow Training (Solid for what it is)


3rd Party:
1.   Bug Island (So bad it is good)
2.   We Love Golf (Very solid and feature rich arcade golf game for Wii)
3.   Blast Works (Stunning level creator)
4.   PES 2008 (Most revolutionary sports game in years)
5.   Boom Blox (Extremely addicting and fun party game)
6.   Pinball Hall of Fame (Best Pinball simulation I've ever played)
7.   Mercury Meltdown (Great and CHEAP game)
8.   Mario and Sonic (Mindless fun but good fun with family)
9.   Godzilla Unleashed (I actually liked this game quite a bit)
10.   RE4 (Great port of a great game)
11.   House of the Dead 2 and 3 (Lightgun gaming goodness)
12.   RE: UC (Once again, a unique and fun lightgun game)
13.   Opoona (Odd RPG that may not be for everyone but has charm)
14.   Dragon Quest Swords (A really solid Wii title even if it came out later than it should have)
15.   Zack and Wiki (Great!)
16.   NMH (Best brawler in years)
17.   Godfather (Best version of Godfather by far, Wii remote controls make for an extremely interactive and FUN experience)
18.   Scarface (Same as Godfather)
19.   Madden 07 (Promising first steps for Madden on Wii)
20.   Red Steel (Ok not much to defend! One of these day 1 console buys that you have on EVERY console)
21.   Rayman 1 (Same as above)
22.   Bomberman (average game)
23.   Dewey's Adventure (Extremely unique graphical style and gameplay even with some wonky controls)
24.   Elebits (I LOVE this game. Enough said)
25.   Carnival Games (Takes alot of unfair bashing. It does what it sets out to do quite well, which is replicate carnival games for home use. Lots of fun to be had with family
26.   Nights (Unpolished but still very solid title)
27.   MySims (Quality title that needed more refining)
28.   Cruis'n (As I said, I realize this is a bad game but I enjoy the terrible nature of it!)
30.   Manhunt 2 (Ehhe, average at best, I mainly bought it to see what the hype was about)
31.   Ghost Squad (Great light gun game. Bargain Price
32.   MLB Power Pro Baseball (Amazing baseball game, the best I've played in years)
33.   Smarty Pants (With over 20,000 questions and an extremely polished and straight forward userface this is a family favorite. I LOVE this game, even after almost a year we have yet to see a repeat question)
34.   Harry Potter: Order of Phoenix (Interactive wand controls for all us Harry Potter geeks)
35.   Cranium Kabookie (Good version of a favorite of my family. Has some problems but still far from low quality)
36. Okami (Wow. I still can't imagine playing this on PS2)

[Bill Aurion]

Coming this Fall with some multi-platform that may actually justify purchasing TWO versions:

-Force Unleashed (Sounds like it could be good)
-Deadly Creatures (Very unique game)
-SPRay (adventure/puzzle game)
-Madden 2009 (I am actually getting the 360 and Wii version because they do different things)
-Fatal Frame (Hey I can hope)
-Spore (Still don't know much about the Wii version but Wright seems excited about it so hopefully it is a quality game)
-deBlob (Once again a promising game that is quite unique that is EXCLUSIVE to Wii)

You forgot Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World and Little King's Story!

Mostly sequels there but that's just off the top of my head anyway.  I don't think the PS3 is a very worthwhile console but I just listed off five pretty major games.  I don't even know the PS3 library that well because I'm not very interested in it but that list of five is pretty effective.  Much more so than a longer list of weaker titles would be.

I don't like where you are going with this...You are making the assumption that "known franchise = good support," and you're always complaining about sequels in the first place...

Just because a game isn't from a franchise with a dozen games doesn't make it not worthwhile...Boom Blox, Kororinpa, Zack & Wiki...These games are amazing...On the horizon there's Little King's Story, Fragile, MadWorld, The Conduit, Arc Rise Fantasia, etc...All of these games show real potential and to put them down as "weaker titles" just because they aren't franchise games is stupid and goes completely against your argument (AND against your own past rants on Nintendo for not making original titles...Hurray for double standards!)

[NWR_insanolord]

Coming this Fall with some multi-platform that may actually justify purchasing TWO versions:

-Force Unleashed (Sounds like it could be good)
-Deadly Creatures (Very unique game)
-SPRay (adventure/puzzle game)
-Madden 2009 (I am actually getting the 360 and Wii version because they do different things)
-Fatal Frame (Hey I can hope)
-Spore (Still don't know much about the Wii version but Wright seems excited about it so hopefully it is a quality game)
-deBlob (Once again a promising game that is quite unique that is EXCLUSIVE to Wii)

You forgot Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World and Little King's Story!

Also Monster Lab looks interesting, as does Mushroom Men.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Coming this Fall with some multi-platform that may actually justify purchasing TWO versions:

-Force Unleashed (Sounds like it could be good)
-Deadly Creatures (Very unique game)
-SPRay (adventure/puzzle game)
-Madden 2009 (I am actually getting the 360 and Wii version because they do different things)
-Fatal Frame (Hey I can hope)
-Spore (Still don't know much about the Wii version but Wright seems excited about it so hopefully it is a quality game)
-deBlob (Once again a promising game that is quite unique that is EXCLUSIVE to Wii)

You forgot Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World and Little King's Story!

Yes you are right. Even MySims 2 along with EA's other sim game look promising. Really I think this is going to be a GOOD year for 3rd party developers, they seem to be getting the hang of the Wii and we are getting out of the "PS2 to Wii" port era.

[NWR_Lindy]

My Wii game library:

First-Party

1.   Wii Sports
2.   Mario Kart Wii
3.   Zelda: TP
4.   MP3
5.   Mario Strikers
6.   Smash Brothers Brawl
7.   BWii
8.   Mario Galaxy
9.   WarioWare Smooth Moves
10.   Excitetruck
11.   Super Paper Mario

Third-Party

1.  PES 2008
2.  Castle of Shikigami
3.  Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
4.  Blast Works
5.  Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
6.  Okami
7.  Zack & Wiki
8.  No More Heroes
9.  Trauma Center: Second Opinion

I actually have 20 games then.  The only thing on the horizon that interests me for Wii is MadWorld.  Everything else is in the "only interested if it gets rave reviews" category.

I think the 360 and PS3 libraries both kill the Wii at the top end of the spectrum.  The top-level titles on those consoles are REALLY good.  On Wii, beyond Mario Galaxy, Brawl, Metroid, Mario Kart, and Zelda, you drop into a definite second tier (Okami and RE:4 are darn good, but they're last-gen).  The Wii has more games, but I'd say the 360 and PS3 have a deeper roster of top-level titles (probably double what the Wii has, actually).

[Bill Aurion]

Bringing the idea of "tiers" into this is a bad idea, mainly because then you are merely adding the additional factor of gaming taste into the equation...I own 10 360 games and 1 PS3 game and I'd give maybe 5 "top-tier status," so yeah, it's impossible to judge, particularly when you start trying to define the difference between a "top-tier" game and a "second tier" game...