Topic: Why Nintendo Hasn't Abandoned the Hardcore

[Ian Sane]

90% of my SNES games are from adulthood, bought second hand for cheap years after the fact.  I'm not comparing my childhood collection.  That was only like four games.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.  I'm just saying the only console I own so many games for is one that I specifically collect for that has already had a full console life, had really strong third party suppot, and due to being really old is not very expensive to buy for.  I also have amassed this collection over 14 years and not less than two.

In short even if I could afford (well I could I guess if I wanted to skimp on other luxuries) all the games I wanted I couldn't imagine owning so many for one system in such a short period of time.

[NWR_Lindy]

No wonder these "Nintendo has abandoned core gamers" arguments don't make you guys blink, your standards are so low you don't relate.

LOL  I can't help but agree, Ian.  Even at 19 games I feel like I'm stretching it.  In fact, I'm thinking of trading in Excitetruck, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, and Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz because I'll simply never play them again, and really never should have bought them in the first place.

Fifty-two games is astounding to me, GP.  Heck, I can't even think of that many Wii games worth owning even when you combine Retail, WiiWare, and Virtual Console.

[GoldenPhoenix]

No wonder these "Nintendo has abandoned core gamers" arguments don't make you guys blink, your standards are so low you don't relate.

LOL  I can't help but agree, Ian.  Even at 19 games I feel like I'm stretching it.  In fact, I'm thinking of trading in Excitetruck, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, and Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz because I'll simply never play them again, and really never should have bought them in the first place.

Fifty-two games is astounding to me, GP.  Heck, I can't even think of that many Wii games worth owning even when you combine Retail, WiiWare, and Virtual Console.

Understandable, most are lacking in shooting aliens and seeing shiny objects.

[NWR_insanolord]

Heck, I can't even think of that many Wii games worth owning even when you combine Retail, WiiWare, and Virtual Console.

If you factor WiiWare and VC into it I have over 100 Wii games.

[D_Average]

GP, do you write for Nintendo Power?

[NWR_Lindy]

Understandable, most are lacking in shooting aliens and seeing shiny objects.

Nah, I was more thinking they're lacking in the "quality game worth owning" department.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Yet you own so many.

[NWR_Lindy]

I was responding to GP's inferral that I don't like any game that doesn't involve shooting aliens and shiny objects.  It's not that at all, it's just that there's no way I'd every buy many of the games on her list.

[S-U-P-E-R]

If we look at the Wii thus far we have a fairly solid collection of titles from Nintendo all geared to satiate the Nintendo "hardcore" crowd. We have seen Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and Wario Ware on the Wii already. We also know that Nintendo is working on Disaster, Wario Land, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, a new Mario and a new Zelda. Are there really that many franchises they have missed?

I take issue with this part because their new reiterations of old franchises are not really holding up as well as the older ones did, except for maybe like one. It's tough to be hardcore about Nintendo's core titles when they're just getting dumber.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I was responding to GP's inferral that I don't like any game that doesn't involve shooting aliens and shiny objects.  It's not that at all, it's just that there's no way I'd every buy many of the games on her list.

Once again we are delving into taste, I personally think it is ludicrous you suggest that you can't find that many Wii games to own even WITH Virtual Console. There are some true classics on Virtual Console and they aren't worth owning by people?

[KDR_11k]

I take issue with this part because their new reiterations of old franchises are not really holding up as well as the older ones did, except for maybe like one. It's tough to be hardcore about Nintendo's core titles when they're just getting dumber.

How so? The ones I played, TP and SMG, did improve on their predecessors.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Yeah, SMG would be the one I was referring to. But Mario Kart and Brawl aren't as good (or at least not much of an improvement) on the prior ones (Zelda sucks lol).

This is how I see the hardcore Nintendo fan: the kind of guy that digs the N64 & GC's great games, which are mostly multiplayer games with a lot of hidden subtleties (Mario Kart, Smash, GoldenEye, and also 3rd party stuff like Bomberman and even stuff like Hexen [lol]) and some occasional single player stuff like the Marios, Zeldas, Metroids. Also, the older folks that loved the freakin' ROBUST libraries of the NES and SNES.

I mean, Nintendo was the best at making great multiplayer games 5-10 years ago and it just eats me up inside that they're not delivering much of that kind of content anymore when they're pretty much the best at it. Like, I look at the Wii library, and I see casual stuff like Wii sports and Fit and beer pong or whatever, a lot of shovelware and ports, and old console roms. I really do think they've shifted their target demographic from anything resembling a serious gamer to old, out-of-touch people (gamers?).

[KDR_11k]

Funny how you mention the N64 and GC when everyone agrees the NES and SNES were Nintendo's best time and the N64 and GC are widely considered a failure.

One thing that has changed a lot since the NES is this: In the NES days you turned the thing on, hit start and within seconds you were shooting aliens, nazis or whatever the evil guys in your game are. Now it's all intro-intro-intro and you need savegames to start playing at any semi-interesting part instead of a boring, slow tutorial.

Which is it with Brawl and Kart, no improvement or a downfall? Improvements shrink with every iteration of a concept as there's less and less that needs improving. A reduction in quality would be something different.

Then again there are many things in Wii Sports people don't notice easily.

[S-U-P-E-R]

I didn't say that NES or SNES weren't like the two best systems ever, it's just that the 80s/early 90s are gone and not so relevant to the current game biz. But Nintendo isn't catering to those people either, it seems. And yet it's apparently making them bank somehow, but I don't have to like it 

Improvements shrink with every iteration of a concept as there's less and less that needs improving. A reduction in quality would be something different.

Mario Kart 64 was the best (console) Mario Kart. Brawl, to me, only seems just a little better than melee since the online and final smash features basically sucked. I bet it could be a lot better if they reworked those things a bit.

One thing that has changed a lot since the NES is this: In the NES days you turned the thing on, hit start and within seconds you were shooting aliens, nazis or whatever the evil guys in your game are. Now it's all intro-intro-intro and you need savegames to start playing at any semi-interesting part instead of a boring, slow tutorial.

Yeah. I also hate this. I've been playing XBLA games a lot more than I thought I would be and I think this is one of the reasons. I'd probably be playing Wii download content too if it was half as good.

[NWR_Lindy]

Once again we are delving into taste, I personally think it is ludicrous you suggest that you can't find that many Wii games to own even WITH Virtual Console. There are some true classics on Virtual Console and they aren't worth owning by people?

I can't give Nintendo any credit for Virtual Console outside of Sin & Punishment, since that's the only VC game that required any notable new effort to get over here that I actually care about.  But since you're looking for a number, here are the games that I think are "purchasable" (i.e. not a total waste of cash):

Nintendo Entertainment System (34)

Legend of Zelda
Solomon's Key
Ice Hockey
Super Mario Bros.
Gradius
Kid Icarus
Kirby's Adventure
Tecmo Bowl
Excitebike
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Galaga
Punch-Out!!
Castlevania
Mighty Bomb Jack
Ninja Gaiden
Pac-Man
Milon's Secret Castle
Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
Lode Runner
Super Mario Bros. 2
Metroid
Super C
Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
Ninja Gaiden II: The Dark Sword of Chaos
Castlevania II: Simon's Quest
Super Mario Bros. 3
Ghosts 'n Goblins
Blades of Steel
Bubble Bobble
StarTropics Nintendo
Ninja Gaiden III: The Ancient Ship of Doom
River City Ransom
Double Dragon
Sky Kid


Super Nintendo Entertainment System (25)
 
F-Zero Nintendo
SimCity Nintendo
Street Fighter II: The World Warrior
Super Castlevania IV
R·Type III: The Third Lightning
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Contra III: The Alien Wars
Super Mario World
Donkey Kong Country
Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Gradius III
Legend of the Mystical Ninja
Final Fight
Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest
ActRaiser
Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting
Super Metroid
Breath of Fire II
Axelay
Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!
Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers
Harvest Moon
Super Turrican
DoReMi Fantasy: Milon's DokiDoki Adventure
Super R-Type


Nintendo 64 (11)
 
Super Mario 64
Mario Kart 64
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Star Fox 64
F-Zero X
Paper Mario
Wave Race 64
Yoshi's Story
Sin & Punishment
1080° Snowboarding
Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards


Sega Master System (1)

Alex Kidd in Miracle World


Sega Genesis (35)

Altered Beast
Sonic the Hedgehog
Ecco the Dolphin
Golden Axe
Columns
Ristar
Gunstar Heroes
Space Harrier II
ToeJam & Earl
Streets of Rage
Sword of Vermilion
Beyond Oasis
Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle
Virtua Fighter 2
Wonder Boy in Monster World
Streets of Rage 2 
ToeJam & Earl in Panic on Funkotron
Golden Axe II
Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Ecco: The Tides of Time
Shining Force
Shining in the Darkness
Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master
Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Sonic the Hedgehog 3
Super Thunder Blade
Streets of Rage 3
Golden Axe III 
Rolling Thunder 2
Columns III: Revenge of Columns
Phantasy Star II
Puyo Puyo 2
Mega Turrican
Phantasy Star III: Generations of Doom
Gley Lancer



TurboGrafx-16/TurboGrafx-CD (17)
 
Bomberman '93
Bonk's Adventure
Super Star Soldier
Alien Crush
Military Madness
R-Type
Bonk's Revenge
Battle Lode Runner
Ninja Spirit
Blazing Lazers
Devil's Crush
Galaga '90
Neutopia
Bonk III: Bonk's Big Adventure
Neutopia II
Gate of Thunder
Lords of Thunder


Neo Geo (4)

Baseball Stars 2
King of Fighters '94
Samurai Shodown
King of the Monsters

TOTAL: 127  +  SILKS' GAMES (20) = 147

So there you go GP, I think that there are 147 individual games worth playing on the Wii.  But if you're giving Nintendo a pat on the back for making you pay five bucks for a game they released 23 years ago, I suggest you rethink that position.

[GoldenPhoenix]

So there you go GP, I think that there are 147 individual games worth playing on the Wii.  But if you're giving Nintendo a pat on the back for making you pay five bucks for a game they released 23 years ago, I suggest you rethink that position.

You are the one that stated that about VC games not worth owning, you said nothing about the "effort" being put into porting them. So please if you are going to make ridiculous statements at least qualify what you mean by them. I know I sure as heck didn't say anything about Nintendo deserving a pat on the back for releasing them.

[NWR_Lindy]

By my count I've bought 36 of the VC games I listed above, and I haven't bought any WiiWare games.  So 56 is the magic number for the games I decided to lay down hard-earned cash to play.

I think VC is cool bonus content, but I don't count it as part of the Wii library, really.  Yes, you can play it on Wii, but it's back catalog.  I'm not giving 360 or PS3 any props for what they're doing with Xbox and PS2/PS1 games either.  Like I said, it's cool extra content, but it's not what I'm buying any of these systems for.

[NWR_Lindy]

I have over double the games you have for Wii, so Me > You. I'll be interested in reading this blog post when it debuts in 2010.

Looks like 2010 just arrived.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=16519

[S-U-P-E-R]

Yes. A giant ass list of roms. A great way to make a point in any thread. Because $5-$10 Roms count as Wii games.

If you were hardcore you'd own the cartridges

[GoldenPhoenix]

Yes. A giant ass list of roms. A great way to make a point in any thread. Because $5-$10 Roms count as Wii games.

If you were hardcore you'd own the cartridges

For some reason I don't believe I made that statement. It was Lindy who said there aren't any VC games worth owning that total over 50 INCLUDING Wii games. Funny how that works when one person makes an asinine statement and someone else grips onto it like somehow the original post said anything about that. I said NOTHING about VC games until Lindy brought it up to make his exaggerated point.

[NWR_Lindy]

I said NOTHING about VC games until Lindy brought it up to make his exaggerated point.

I'm all about exaggerated points.  "Wii will signal the end of the gaming industry."  DEBATE

[GoldenPhoenix]

I said NOTHING about VC games until Lindy brought it up to make his exaggerated point.

I'm all about exaggerated points.  "Wii will signal the end of the gaming industry."  DEBATE

Yep, glad you admit it.

[vudu]

I'm all about exaggerated points.  "Wii will signal the end of the gaming industry, and the rebirth of the entertainment industry."  DEBATE

Debate, indeed.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Seriouspost: I mashed on the auto-troll button as hard as I could when I saw a giant list of games and to do so was a grievious error

But I'd like to get back on track and mention how skeptical I am of this:

Obviously, Nintendo is still working on games that traditional gamers will enjoy.

I hope it's Mario Kart Wii: Good Edition and GoldenEye for xbox live

[KDR_11k]

Yes. A giant ass list of roms. A great way to make a point in any thread. Because $5-$10 Roms count as Wii games.

If you were hardcore you'd own the cartridges

So hardcore creds require neing old enough to buy loads of games back when the NES was out? Buying these games on flea markets now costs more than grabbing the download and you don't even get the ability to suspend the game.