Topic: E3: 2008 Is about 3 weeks away what Wii news are you expecting and hoping for?

[GoldenPhoenix]

What is with the Animal Crossing hate? Yeah the conference was bad but how can you hate AC?

[KDR_11k]

Wii Sports Resort does look more complex than regular Wii Sports, at least in the sword fighting and jet ski games.

[Ian Sane]

You know when a band that's been around a long time releases a new album and it's like wimpy adult comtemporary stuff?  And you think to yourself "man this band used to rock so much but this is so lame".  Then you realize that that band is all over 40.  They're old and they like old person music so they now make old person music.

When I took at Miyamoto being all excited about Wii Music that's what I think of.  Ten years ago at E3 1998 Miyamoto would have been showing off Ocarina of Time, which at the time was the most ambitious and epic game ever made.  In comparison Wii Music isn't even a game.  I wonder how someone who created the greatest games of all time would be excited about something like that.  But then I remember Miyamoto is now old and he's making games for old people.  I'm not old.  I'm not even 30 yet so it's not that surprising that a man about the same age as my Mom is making something I have no interest in.  He's gone soft rock.

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, he made Ocarina of Time and Nintendo stopped being #1 in the videogame market. Now he's making Wii Music and Nintendo is #1 again. Epic games need a story and Miyamoto doesn't do those. Epic games work better with great graphics and the Wii doesn't do those. In fact, epic games are the strength of MS and Sony, Nintendo won by making epic games irrelevant because most people don't want to take part in an epic. They want something they can start and kick ass in and by giving them that Nintendo won as noone else was giving the market what the market wanted.

[Ian Sane]

Yeah, he made Ocarina of Time and Nintendo stopped being #1 in the videogame market. Now he's making Wii Music and Nintendo is #1 again. Epic games need a story and Miyamoto doesn't do those. Epic games work better with great graphics and the Wii doesn't do those. In fact, epic games are the strength of MS and Sony, Nintendo won by making epic games irrelevant because most people don't want to take part in an epic. They want something they can start and kick ass in and by giving them that Nintendo won as noone else was giving the market what the market wanted.

And Celine Dion sells records and American Idol gets great ratings but that doesn't matter to me.  You use this arguement to defend sh!tty music, movies and TV shows as well?

[kraken613]

I dont know if anyone saw but WiiSpeak is going to be sold separate for $30......... I hope they have a chat channel or something so you can use it not in an actual game.........

[Mario]

He's stating that it's not just Miyamoto changing, but the entire market. Whether you like it or not.

And he's still working on a new Mario and Zelda at the same time.

[KDR_11k]

And Celine Dion sells records and American Idol gets great ratings but that doesn't matter to me.  You use this arguement to defend sh!tty music, movies and TV shows as well?

Epic games were the cancer that was killing Nintendo, would you rather have the company out of business?

[Ian Sane]

He's stating that it's not just Miyamoto changing, but the entire market. Whether you like it or not.

The market didn't change, it expanded.  Core gamers play Guitar Hero and try to beat songs at the higher difficulties.  They are not interested in Wii Music and it's "no skill required" whatever.  You think the old 13-25 male demographic flips for Wii Fit?

Epic games were the cancer that was killing Nintendo, would you rather have the company out of business?

That's total bullsh!t.  Nintendo was getting killed by their own ineptitude.  Making good games and hardware that didn't break was the only thing they knew how to do right.  The cancer was a company that no longer knew how to market to the gamer demographic so they sold out.

And I don't care if the company went out of busines or not.  The REAL Nintendo died when Iwata took over anyway.  In theory they could always have lived on as a third party since making good games was always what they were good at.

But really the only point I was making was that Miyamoto has gone soft.  I don't care why, that's just what has happened.

WiiSpeak sold seperately?  The great "Nintendo designed the Wii entirely to sell accessories" conspiracy lives on.

[KDR_11k]

So how DO you market to the gamer demographic? And how do you do it without MS or Sony simply one-upping you?

[Ian Sane]

So how DO you market to the gamer demographic? And how do you do it without MS or Sony simply one-upping you?

I at least stop doing things stupidly for no reason.  No more "Nintendo does it a weird dumb way just because".  Nintendo always showed up for the race with their shoelaces tied together so it didn't matter that they were actually fastest runner.  I would make a true effort, which I feel they didn't do with the Cube.  I would try to start on equal footing and hope that since I made the best games I would be able to start reclaiming lost market share.  Considering how much of a disaster the PS3 is that probably would have worked out quite well.  By just not shooting themselves in the foot Nintendo would probably have been number two overall by default and number one in Japan.

I always felt Nintendo was their own greatest enemy.  Sony didn't win, Nintendo just lost.  They always beat themselves by making really stupid "anyone can see the problem from a mile away" decisions.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Glad Ian is such an excellent Business person, if they would have listened to him they wouldn't be selling 20 million units they would be selling 500 BILLION.

[Luigi Dude]

The fact that Nintendo announced they're bringing the upcoming Rhythm Tengoku on the DS to America, is enough to make me happy with thier E3 showing.

Plus just because they didn't show off certion games doesn't mean they aren't coming.  They never showed Wario Land Shake and they don't even have a demo of it on the floor, yet that game is about to be released in Japan in a week.

Since Nintendo's new strategy involves announcing games 2-3 months before they're released like they did with Wario Land and Fatal Frame, we'll find out about the rest of their fall games sometime in September or October.

[Chozo Ghost]

The REAL Nintendo died when Iwata took over anyway.  In theory they could always have lived on as a third party since making good games was always what they were good at.

I think you're wrong, and I think it was Iwata who saved the company and turned it around from its downward spiral. Nintendo is now more or less back to the greatness it enjoyed during the NES and SNES years, so now Nintendo more closely resembles itself 20 years ago than itself 10 years ago, and that's a good thing.

Things started to go terribly wrong during and after the N64 era, and I'm not sure why that is, but it may be that Yamauchi was getting old and senile and maybe losing his mind a little bit. The company needed fresh new young leadership, and they found that in Iwata, and I am pleased with a lot of what he has accomplished for the company. Nintendo still makes just as many "hardcore" games as they always did, which shouldn't even have to be pointed out, because Mario, Zelda, Metroid, et cetera are all to be found on the Wii, so they haven't gone anywhere. Plus we have the rumors of Icarus and other franchises appearing or re-appearing that will appeal to hardcore gamers.

Yes there are a lot more "non-games" than there was for the GC or N64, but so what? The hardcore games still haven't gone anywhere, and if you don't like the Wii Sports type games then just don't buy them. Nintendo is expanding the market to cater to new markets; they are NOT abandoning their old market. No one says you have to like these games, so if you don't like them don't buy them.

[Chozo Ghost]

Glad Ian is such an excellent Business person, if they would have listened to him they wouldn't be selling 20 million units they would be selling 500 BILLION.

No kidding. The Wii is already a few million past the total lifetime sales of the Gamecube, which makes the Wii a solid success no matter what else happens, but yet Ian just won't accept that Nintendo could be successful. I think deep down Ian probably secretly longs for the days when Nintendo was in third place, because then his criticisms would at least have some merit to them.

[Adrock]

Well, alrighty. So how about that "big game for the holiday that the gamers will want?" Was that supposed to be Animal Crossing?

Seems to me, Nintendo announced to 2 peripherals for the Wii, catered to casual gamers again, ignored DS, then called it a day. Color me confused though not necessarily let down, oddly enough. I guess I just don't care. It would be nice if Nintendo kept their mouths closed if they aren't going to show anything they say they will. Is that any different than before? Probably not.

Wii Sports Resort (I get it, that rhymes) is neat-o looking but the games they decided to show were pretty weak. None of them look nearly as engaging or fun as Wii Tennis did 2 years ago. I know there are other under-wraps games. I'm still unimpressed (at Resort), though.

I'm expecting a surprise akin to Brawl showing up at E3 2006, probably Kid Icarus using MotionPlus.

[Morari]

Yes there are a lot more "non-games" than there was for the GC or N64, but so what? The hardcore games still haven't gone anywhere, and if you don't like the Wii Sports type games then just don't buy them.

It's funny, those of us with a long PC gaming background didn't start to see anyone as "casual" until frat boys bought up the PSX in order to drool over yearly releases of Madden.

[Ian Sane]

Nintendo still makes just as many "hardcore" games as they always did, which shouldn't even have to be pointed out, because Mario, Zelda, Metroid, et cetera are all to be found on the Wii, so they haven't gone anywhere. Plus we have the rumors of Icarus and other franchises appearing or re-appearing that will appeal to hardcore gamers.

All you mention are franchises.  That's all Nintendo ever mentions regarding hardcore gamers.  That is a big part of what I don't like about Iwata era Nintendo.  To me Nintendo lost it with that "Who are you?" campaign on the Cube.  Suddenly the franchises were everything and we were just getting bombared with Mario spin-offs.  That's when I starting losing interest in the Cube and that happened fairly shortly after Iwata took over.  Yamauchi era was not about franchises; it was about creativity, innovation and high quality games.  This is the Nintendo that I became a fan off.  The franchises started off as one shot games that were so good that eventually they created their own series of games.

But Mario the character does not define Nintendo.  Games like Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros and Super Mario 64 define Nintendo.  These are games that changed videogaming.  They all coincidently starred Mario but where not the important games they were because of him.  Iwata era Nintendo changed that.  It was under his watch that we saw Metroid and Zelda being spinned off.  We saw Star Fox ruined.  We saw Mario starring in really substandard junk like that pinball game.  With Iwata it suddenly became all about the franchises.

Until they latched on this non-gamer thing and then suddenly Nintendo was creative again, but only with non-games.  It's still just all franchises all the time for the core gamer.  They more or less state that that is what they think we want.

So this Nintendo is very different.  From a core gamer perspective this is the same "Who are you?" Nintendo that just recycles the same damn stuff.  I am tired of Nintendo and anyone else pointing at a big pile of sequels and spin-offs and saying "this is for you".  Where is my core gamer focused new IP?  This is what I've been waiting for since the Wii was revealed and I still don't see it.

[Chozo Ghost]

I don't know if you guys realize this or not, but the E3 conference lasts for a few more days, so there's still hope for some surprises.

[Chozo Ghost]

With Iwata it suddenly became all about the franchises..

To be fair, this really started during the Yamauchi era. Remember Star Fox adventures? Remember all those Mario sports and spin-off titles? Those began with the N64 and were expanded during the GC era. The Wii is only carrying on this Mario spin-off mania, but it really began about 10 years ago. I'll agree with you we are starting to see this spin-off syndrome creep into other franchises like Zelda and Metroid, but it's not like Iwata started the concept.

As far as new franchises go, it is becoming obvious Nintendo is planning to revive their Icarus series, and that franchise has been abandoned for so long that it pretty much counts as new at this point. I think we're probably going to be seeing more quality stuff from third parties as well, especially with those new peripherals that Nintendo announced. The Wii has given us Red Steel and No More Heroes, which are entirely new and hardcore, albeit a bit short and rushed. But just think about what sequels to these games would be like with the benefit of motion plus and a little more time to get things polished.

Maybe you're right that Nintendo is slacking on new hardcore franchises, but the Wii platform also has potential for third party material, and things look very promising because finally we have a Nintendo console which can't really be ignored by developers. Granted, a lot of that is also casual crap, but what about those games I mentioned, plus the ones that have been recently announced such as Conduit? There's a lot of potential, and for once we don't have to rely 100% on Nintendo to pull through for us.

[Ian Sane]

The Wii has given us Red Steel and No More Heroes, which are entirely new and hardcore, albeit a bit short and rushed. But just think about what sequels to these games would be like with the benefit of motion plus and a little more time to get things polished.

Well I'm not talking about third party games.  I'm talking about the game Nintendo releases themselves.

And Red Steel?  Come on.  That's not the game to use as an example.  Only the most die-hard Wii apologists have anyone positive to say about it.

Difference between Yamauchi Nintendo and Iwata Nintendo?  Yamauchi Nintendo makes Mario Tennis and Mario Golf.  Iwata era makes sequels to those games and then introduces more Mario sports games and introduces sequels to those.  With Yamauchi it looked like a Mario sports series with each game being a different sport.  So every sequel has a purpose and is fresh.  But with Iwata each sport is its own series and gets tiring real quick.  Subtle stuff like that makes a huge difference.  Mario RPG is the same way.  Under Yamauchi there were two Mario RPGs created by different teams that were vastly different.  Under Iwata Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi are seperate series.  Spin-offs of spin-offs?  Now that's rehasing.

Though I'll blame Yamauchi for Mario Party.

[Mikintosh]

Ah, and the rose-colored glasses come on. Nintendo began franchising out Mario as early as the SNES era, the last major franchise created besides Pikmin was Pokemon in 1995, and it was the Yamauchi regime (actually the man himself) that shot Nintendo in the foot by screwing over Sony about the Playstation and setting up their biggest competition to steal everything away from them for the next decade until he was forced into retirement. Since then, Nintendo's moved to number 1, has two great consoles out, and awesome games for almost every franchise available for both of them (screw it, I liked Star Fox Assault & Command).

Your Mario RPG example is idiotic. The second Mario RPG was totally different because Square wasn't working with Nintendo in the late 90s, not because of executive genius (though it showed how talented Intelligent Systems was), and the fact that the games got sequels doesn't mean the predecessors were being diluted; they were just telling more stories in the same style. Would you want Sonic the Hedgehog to have stopped at the first one lest Sega "rehash" their previous success?

And about franchise themselves...look, the games are fun. The industry is supposed to be about fun, and if all of Nintendo's games are well-made and try new things with each installment, what's the problem? At least they're not like the rest of the industry, which produces about 1 good game out of every 15, and even those usually lack much personality. "Core gamers" can bite me.

The presentation sucked because all I expected of them was to announce a new Zelda game, and they didn't even do that. What's the point of even doing these things if you're just going to let down your customers?

[Chozo Ghost]

Hiroshi Yamauchi is probably the Howard Hughes of the video game industry. He did some excellent stuff in his younger days, but as he got older he started putting out stuff like Star Fox Adventures and the like, and that's why he had to be forced into retirement.

Iwata may not be the greatest mind as far as the software is concerned, but look at what he did with the hardware for the DS and the Wii. Hardware wise, that man is a genius, and those two devices are the main reason for Nintendo's rapid turn around since 2006 or so.

As for software, at least Miyamoto is still on board. He may not be as great as he was in his younger days, so he might be a little like Yamauchi and his mind is deteriorating with age, but he did give us Pikmin quite recently and he still has good ideas. It probably is time for younger leaders to step up and start offering some ideas, though.

[DAaaMan64]

LOL don't call the last two generations Nintendo's "downward spiral."  They rocked hard, just not this hard.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I don't think it is fair to say Miyamoto has lost it. It is just that he is overseeing so much now and doesn't focus nearly as much on a single game as he once did.