Author Topic: The smartest person on the Internet  (Read 108479 times)

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #225 on: June 15, 2009, 06:15:06 PM »
Yeah, that's the trend I spotted almost 10 years ago, where realistic visuals and reasonable behavior would not converge (the "silly gap" would grow instead) as game machines advanced.  "gamers" tend to identify those "less realistic aspects" as "maintaining fun," a lot like how FPS games handle character health/damage with life meters and body armor, and my favorite, characters strafing in all directions in godlike speeds without tripping over themselves.  It also extends to the negative attitudes towards aiming with the wii remote, cuz you literally aim it (a reasonable behavior for user input, with light-gun games showing it's nothing new) with your fidgity plump greasy gamer hand in actual space without the crutch of a desk surface or an analog stick that automatically snaps to the center.  "physical merit is NOT fun," says these Y2K gamers.

With the exception of Wii, we're observing the Highly Disappointing market that has descended from the PS2/Xbox/PC "games for you males" school of thought.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #226 on: June 16, 2009, 02:09:24 AM »
You know in this guy's latest posts he starts sounding more like the hardcore gamer he usually rails against.  Before he would tout sales numbers as the main metric of whether the people like the games or not, regardless of review scores, but now he'll switch gears and yap about 3D Mario or how NSMB on the DS wasn't "better" than SMB3, despite his own use of sales numbers as a metric (fun fact, NSMB has outsold SMB3.)  And say how NSMBWii is being "phoned in" because it doesn't have "epic music" or something, which sounds like a complaint a hardcore gamer would have.

And his "mythos" idea behind games is the most labyrinthine and intangible concept I have ever seen.  It's like a catch-all excuse for when a game either underperforms or is not otherwise "accepted."  But even his use of it is totally inconsistent.  Like when he talks about Zelda and it's mythos, but dumps on Spirit Tracks for violating the Zelda "mythos" with trains and such, which is funny because one of his favorites is Link's Awakening has a giant blue dreaming whale.  And he uses the weasel worded

Quote
Many Zelda fans are not happy with the train in the game. “What is next? Laser beams!?” This anger is coming from the sense that the mythos is not being consistent.

But earlier he defends Zelda II, despite being universally regarded as a black sheep in the entire series, which "Many Zelda fans were not happy with."

It just sounds like personal preference is creeping in, which is fine.  I mean it's his blog.  But you can't really be a demagogue with all these big theories about stuff when it's just your own personal opinion that's fueling them, along with the inconsistencies.

Sadly, I have to agree with you. I love the guy and he makes some awesome points from time to time. But ever since E3 ended he's been attacking 3D Mario and its beginning to get old. I don't understand how he can be very happy with NSMB Wii existing, then criticizing it to no end afterwards. So what is it, then? Nintendo is pleasing gamers with two Mario games, one for 2D fans and one for 3D fans. How is this a bad thing?

Its confusing how he defends Nintendo on one article, then criticizes it the next over some semantic.

He is right about Natal, though. Not because I am biased but because I believe that MS might be too ambitious with this project and could affect them in the end.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #227 on: June 16, 2009, 10:56:23 AM »
He's also operating under this weird delusion that NSMB DS had no competition.  There were several high quality platformers on the GBA and on the DS before NSMB DS, and... just on the DS, there was Megaman ZX, Sonic Rush, and Castlevania: DoS, all before or around NSMB.

And NSMB's music is fine, jeez.  It's poppy and very reminiscent of the original NES games.  And he acts like everybody hates it, which they don't.
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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #228 on: June 16, 2009, 11:58:16 AM »
but does it blend?
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #229 on: June 16, 2009, 12:07:02 PM »
Now, on a more "I don't understand 'hardcore' games very much anymore" level, I've got to mention Uncharted 2.  I saw the demo that was shown during Sony's press conference, and I don't get it.  So much effort, so much time, some many resources had to be put into creating a beautiful, detailed world.  Things are nearing levels of photo-realism.  No, they aren't quite there yet, but they're approaching it.  The game, by sight alone, looks great.  Then, you watch the gameplay, and it makes no sense.  The lead character must have been shot, even if in many cases it was a nick, fifty times.  At one point, he's staring down a helicopter with a built-in machine gun, which must fire nearly 500 rounds (okay, maybe less, but it's up there...), several of which hit him, and he barely shows any reaction to them.  Beyond that, the character repetitiously hides behind, under, or next to things that obscure his vision, but he easily sticks his gun out, and targets enemies, without any difficulty.

This, to me, is no different than watching an action movie where the heroes are shot at dozens, hundreds of times, and make it through unscathed.  So while I understand your point, and agree to some extent that the realism gap is closing from one perspective and being widened from another, the example above doesn't really bother me that much.  Not anymore than the idea that Darth Vader can't employ a single decent marksman as a Storm Trooper.
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #230 on: June 16, 2009, 12:34:49 PM »
I read the Innovator's Dilemma last year and ever since then I have come to think more and more that Malstrom is wrong.  Nintendo is not a disruptor, it just has competitors that entered without a clue what was really happening in the industry.

There are big points that he never addresses.  One is that it is pretty much impossible for the disruptor to be one of the established and leading companies in the field.  You can't be much more established than Nintendo and it was one of the leading companies.  Its values are supposed prevent it from actually using its ideas effectively.  Another is that the disruptive technology will start in small unwanted markets while the Wii simply came in at number 1.

The disruption theory was made to show how well run companies fail.  I intend to show how the Xbox and Playstation were never truly well run companies in the video game industry.

The Xbox doesn't really need much to show.  It showed up the first time last generation and failed miserably compared to the biggest competition and lost a **** load of money.  The next generation the Wii entered.  A one time entry before and essentially a failure doesn’t need to be disrupted to lose or point out that they are in the same position.

Now you might be saying “Sony had two very successful consoles, how can they be mismanaged?”  I will show you.

Malstrom talks about how the old measure of progression in the industry was graphics.  It is certainly true graphics needed to increase each generation to an extent to draw interest it was never the main selling point for a console in the same generation (software was).

I claim that there has always been a second and equally as important progression in the industry.  That progression is control.  Malstrom says motion is a new value, it is not.  It is simply one of the aspects of the value of control.  Every single Nintendo system has had different control schemes.  Motion is not some new value that needs to be added, it is simply another progression of the control of games that Nintendo has changed.  Nintendo had even experimented with it in the past with the Power Glove.  It is not new, at least for Nintendo and its values.

Nintendo started with a brand new controller with Game and Watch and then entered the games industry with it taking over.  (I am not going to do the research so this is probably wrong but the very basics make it sound like the control scheme is disruptive.  It begins in an unwanted market and then moves up and takes over the console market.)  They then change the controller with the next consoles (the current competition never has) and even add additional ones like the power glove and superscope (and the original blaster).

Sony first entered the market with what was essentially a Nintendo console and controller because of the broken deal.  Its controls were basically snes with extra shoulder buttons.  Nintendo shows up with the analog stick and gets everybody excited about the new things they can do.  Sony copies it easily and adds a second one that luckily has use in fps games.  They still don’t have the ability to rise in this dimension of games, they just copy what they see as the next thing if possible.

The next generation comes and Sony releases the same controller.  Nintendo changes there controller and in my opinion make it superior to ps2 controller except for the terrible c stick.  Why was it not changed more or differently?  It could be simply be to the lack of motion or other technology available or perhaps the next idea had not arrived since the two analog sticks had not been visited by Nintendo.  We are talking one moment of less change (not no change) and if we made a graph of controller technology changing it wouldn’t matter much if the video games industry was not so new.  Even at this point Nintendo is trying to find ways to make the controller easier to use and they emphasize it.

The Wii comes out with a new control scheme and Sony attempts to copy it but it is too different to include in what they know (the ps2 contoller) and they have no experience designing new input methods for the Playstation.  They obviously think that the current controller will be their forever because they constantly say “the industry standard.”  Sony was never capable of competing in the field of controls.  They got lucky with the ease of incorporating the analog stick and simply got rocked on the next big change.

Now you might ask me “What about the hardcore rebellion?”  I laugh at this.  The Nintendo hardcore never rebelled.  Look a NWR.  The biggest posters are still here.  I even see Ian talk about stuff even though I’m not really sure if he owns a DS or Wii (I know he doesn’t have the others).

I also say that motion controls did not make the hardcore super angry.  Two things did besides the usual console wars dickery.

1.  Nintendo didn’t upgrade their graphics much.  This pissed off the technophile section of the hardcore.  They love high end graphics and computer technology.  They saw this as an insult.  This is probably the biggest risk Nintendo took with both the Wii and DS, not upgrading the graphics technology to keep the price down.

2,  Nintendo marketed the Wii as something for casuals.  They could have easily decided to market it to the hardcore with sayings like “You’ve never been this immersed into a game.  Motion controls make you feel like your part of the game.”  Basically powerglove ads redux “Everything else is child’s play!”  Nintendo announced that they didn’t think the extremely vocal minority was the most important thing ever and that new people were actually more important.  It pissed the “hardcore” off.

Motion controls also did turn off a very, very small minority of current gamers.  Guess what?  So did the last big controller shift to the analog stick controlling 3d movement!  I am looking at you a Malstrom!  I know other people who never upgraded to n64 because they didn’t like the new analog controlled, 3d Mario and Zelda.  The analog control is equally as important as the graphics because without the control there would be no 3d Mario or Zelda or maybe just terrible ones.  It wasn't the 3d graphics that chased people like Malstrom away, he loves NSMB.  It was the new 3d controls aka the analog stick.

Nintendo is not a disruptor, it is just competing in more than one field like it always has.  They entered the industry with the new game and watch control scheme and didn’t stop changing, refining, and doubting it while the other current companies never second guessed it until Nintendo did something.

In his book Christensen says a lot of people like to use “disruption” but its not really it and Malstrom and Nintendo are one of those cases.  This doesn’t take away from the success of Nintendo or make Malstroms predictions wrong, it is just my attempt at showing what really happened in the industry.

edit:  I know its long but if you read any of the books Malstrom calls articles this should be breeze.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 01:07:18 PM by SixthAngel »

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #231 on: June 16, 2009, 12:59:21 PM »
[in reference to previous blah]

The difference was Uncharted 2 was being PLAYED, and the character GOT HIT without behavioral consequence.  When Leon got hit by gatling gun fire, it was a Hurtz Donut and halted his movement pretty good.  We'll leave the gamey aspects to stuffing your face with herbs and full-heal deodorant sprays (active sports fresh minty scent), but c'mon, ugly plasticky Highly Disappointing characters should react when being... acted upon.
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #232 on: June 16, 2009, 01:08:48 PM »
Well I haven't seen the Uncharted 2 demo, so I can't comment on that, specifically, but this has never been something I've had trouble ignoring.   It's a suspension of disbelief that I've never had a problem for me.  I think it's easier to deal with in an FPS because it's generally assumed that your character is wearing body armor of some kind.  Third person games run into a new problem, because you have a character to animate.  I've noticed this more, actually, when you're shooting at a bad guy and it takes a lot of bullets to kill them.  I was playing "Gun" on the 360 recently (also available on... well, everything) and that game had a few bosses that took hundreds of bullets to take down, and they never really seemed to react when I shot at them.

So I guess it does bother me, but moreso from the enemy standpoint, not from the protagonist standpoint.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #233 on: June 16, 2009, 01:40:59 PM »
Sexy Angel,

1.  Nintendo's behavior isn't described via Distruption alone.  You have throw in some Blue Ocean to help illustrate how the Wii/DS entered unwanted, but not small, markets.
2.  I know this isn't the same as sales, but public interest in Wii didn't approach No.1 until E3 2006 rolled around.  A hype train led to Wii's pre-order-tastic launch (not different from other launches), and maybe, just maybe, today's unwanted market merely reacted in the following months, tho seemingly quickly.
3.  Agreed, Nintendo progressed with its controls.  But No, controls haven't changed much from NES to Gamecube in contrast to Grandma Bowling.  It was all thumb-play and couch potatoes since the NES, which presents a better view of the old trend.  Nintendo sticking to its values and Power Gloves and whatnot aren't the important deal here, it's getting the Market to change/realize new values by

1) Transforming the product (Motion and accessibility)
2) Transforming the Market (new customers who migrate to the new trend and not the old)

Motion IS a new value since The Market is growing and living without the old one.  It's new because it's new to The Market.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 01:47:34 PM by NinGurl69 *huggles »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #234 on: June 16, 2009, 01:45:54 PM »
Well I haven't seen the Uncharted 2 demo, so I can't comment on that, specifically, but this has never been something I've had trouble ignoring.   It's a suspension of disbelief that I've never had a problem for me.  I think it's easier to deal with in an FPS because it's generally assumed that your character is wearing body armor of some kind.  Third person games run into a new problem, because you have a character to animate.  I've noticed this more, actually, when you're shooting at a bad guy and it takes a lot of bullets to kill them.  I was playing "Gun" on the 360 recently (also available on... well, everything) and that game had a few bosses that took hundreds of bullets to take down, and they never really seemed to react when I shot at them.

So I guess it does bother me, but moreso from the enemy standpoint, not from the protagonist standpoint.

Well we all know FPS is stale, but portions of The Market continue to enjoy stale as long as nothing fresh is presented...

It did bother me in the enemy sense too.  The first two 007 FPS games last cycle had regular enemies that wouldn't react to headshots and other high-powered rifles sometimes, and I usually attributed that to poor programming, so no, I could never ignore **** like that.  Completely unforgiveable, stupid EA.
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #235 on: June 16, 2009, 02:09:03 PM »
FPS is stale?  It's an entire genre.  I don't think it's possible for an entire genre to be stale.  A setting can be stale, a gameplay mechanic can be stale, but when you're talking about a genre that includes Doom, Half Life 2, Bioshock, and Call of Duty 4, those are very very different games.    That's like saying platformers are stale.  There are no new genres, so saying they're stale is just saying they've been around for awhile.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #236 on: June 16, 2009, 02:17:50 PM »
Platformers are stale too, and there's even less of those.
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #237 on: June 16, 2009, 02:26:08 PM »
So then... video games are stale.  Fantastic.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #238 on: June 16, 2009, 02:34:19 PM »
Which is why Nintendo introduced Wii and DS!  To combat the declining Market!
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #239 on: June 16, 2009, 02:39:10 PM »
I like Nintendo's games, but I really wish they would do away with outdated concepts like "controls" and "video output."
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #240 on: June 16, 2009, 02:44:41 PM »
Rumors are floating that Amazon will attempt to disrupt the Market.  They'll be at next year's E3 to unveil an existing but renewed technology called "books."
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #241 on: June 16, 2009, 02:49:11 PM »
"Can any of you tell me if you know anyone who has never read a book?  We here at Amazon intend to change that."
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #242 on: June 16, 2009, 04:08:12 PM »
FPS is stale?  It's an entire genre.  I don't think it's possible for an entire genre to be stale.  A setting can be stale, a gameplay mechanic can be stale, but when you're talking about a genre that includes Doom, Half Life 2, Bioshock, and Call of Duty 4, those are very very different games.    That's like saying platformers are stale.  There are no new genres, so saying they're stale is just saying they've been around for awhile.

The FPS is significantly less innovative than other genres. Really, all FPSes tend to feel the same gameplay-wise. Some have RPG elements that change what weapons you carry but the flow of the gameplay tends to be extremely similar between different FPSes. I'm not lying when I say FPSes all feel pretty much the same to me.

Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #243 on: June 16, 2009, 07:44:20 PM »
To you, fine.  I disagree that they feel that way to most people.  I think there's a world of difference between Half-Life and Call of Duty 4, in terms of progression, narrative, focus, level design.  If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.  There's just as much variation in FPS games as there are in platformers, sports, adventure titles.

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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #244 on: June 17, 2009, 11:48:17 AM »
I know there's a difference in those things but the net result is very small and the feeling tends to be the same no matter whether it involves extensive cover or bunnyhopping.

Offline Kairon

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #245 on: June 21, 2009, 05:38:29 PM »
I think a more inclusive look at FPS' and TPS' together might be better, since the gameplay limitations that kept these traditionally distinct genres apart are starting to get fuzzier.

Also, LOLZ at the Amazon talk.
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Offline Peachylala

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #246 on: June 21, 2009, 11:44:55 PM »
I think a more inclusive look at FPS' and TPS' together might be better, since the gameplay limitations that kept these traditionally distinct genres apart are starting to get fuzzier.

Also, LOLZ at the Amazon talk.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #247 on: June 22, 2009, 05:01:49 AM »
I think a more inclusive look at FPS' and TPS' together might be better, since the gameplay limitations that kept these traditionally distinct genres apart are starting to get fuzzier.

Yeah, I call 'em xPS when I remember it because it really doesn't matter whether you can see your whole character or only his gun when aiming with dual analogs.

Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #248 on: June 22, 2009, 07:45:32 AM »
I can't help but feel here that people are dismissing entire genres of games just because they don't enjoy them, and are bothered by the fact that they're so popular. 
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: The smartest person on the Internet
« Reply #249 on: June 22, 2009, 12:26:47 PM »
http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/06/21/re-framing-the-industry/

Very nice article about how the industy splits the consumer in to demographics and how this isn't a new trend.
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