Author Topic: Mini-games in Modern Games are Boring  (Read 6359 times)

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Offline theaveng

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Mini-games in Modern Games are Boring
« on: April 02, 2003, 01:43:36 PM »
I took a break today from playing Zelda to watch the Iraq War news.  I was going to leave the GameCube turned on, because I figured it wouldn't harm anything to leave it on for that short 30 minutes.  But then I noticed that the disc was still spinning.

I opened the tray, which made the disc stop spinning, and then closed it again later to resume my game.  I took Link through a door and into... and empty abysss!  haha!  The Zelda program couldn't "kickstart" the disc and make it spin again, so it didn't load the data.

Anyway, why does the GameCube keep the disc spinning even when it's not reading data?  That seems like an awful lot of un-necessary wear-and-tear to keep the disc constantly spinning.

Offline Tsunekazu

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2003, 02:08:53 PM »
Because if you don't, you would need to wait for it to spin back up when you wanted to load something again.  That would result in huge pauses periodically.

And when the disc is not being used, like when using the Game Boy Player, it does stop spinning.

Offline cmoney

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2003, 05:24:56 PM »
theaveng is a pretty negative guy lately....

But yeah. I'm pretty sure that last comment was right.

Offline BlkPaladin

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2003, 06:47:06 PM »
The disc doesn't stop spinning because they use a CAV drive that continously spins when there is a disc present. This means there is no sleep, or standby mode. The one downside to using CAVs is that if the drive isn't made that well they have a tendance to breakdown faster because there is no standby and it spins at the same velocity all the time.

To stop it spinning you have to either open the disc cover or turn the machine off.
Stupidity is lost on my. Then again I'm almost always lost.

Offline BlackGriffen

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2003, 06:52:48 PM »
Speeding up the disk actually represents more wear and tear than just keeping it going at speed in most cases. I think...

BG

Offline thecubedcanuck

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2003, 01:47:42 AM »
I think griffen os right. It is the start up that puts the most pressure on the drive, once spinning I dont think there is much wear at all.
Having sex when your 90 is like shooting pool with a piece of rope

Offline Oogle

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2003, 04:02:59 AM »
This "wear and tear" that everyone speaks about is very minimal, if not, non-existant.  The spinning device doesn't run on gears like a car engine.  It runs on an electric motor.  That means there are no connecting parts between the spindle and the motor.  There are probably just ball bearings or fluid to reduce viscosity.  This also means that the GC has no brake pads either.  The motor itself acts as the brake by stopping it's pole oscillation.  That's why the disc keeps spinning when you turn off the power.  When the motor is off, there's nothing to stop the spindle from spinning.

So, actually the opposite is true.  It's more likely a good thing to see that the disc keeps spinning when the GC is turned off.  It shows that there is very little friction between the spindle and the ball bearings/fluid.  If it were to stop immediately after powering off, I'd be worried that the ball bearings are broken or somehow fused to the spindle.

Oh, and Tsunekazu's answer is the more likely reason for the continual disc spinning.  Pop a CD-ROM in your PC and see how long it takes to access data from it.  Now imagine if your GC had to do the same thing while you're playing...

If anything in the system were to have "wear and tear", it would most likely be the guiding track that the laser rides on.  That thing is prone to misalignment.

Offline OsonCubed320

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2003, 06:46:42 AM »
Animal Crossing doens't even require a disc. After you load your town you can take the game disc out and keep playing no matter where you go or what you do. Pretty cool I think.

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2003, 06:54:39 AM »

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2003, 06:54:41 AM »

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2003, 06:54:42 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: BlkPaladin
The disc doesn't stop spinning because they use a CAV drive that continously spins...
How does using a Constant Angular Velocity drive require the disc keep spinning?

Offline Darc Requiem

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2003, 10:01:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: theaveng
Quote

Originally posted by: BlkPaladin
The disc doesn't stop spinning because they use a CAV drive that continously spins...
How does using a Constant Angular Velocity drive require the disc keep spinning?


The disc spins at one constant speed hence the name. The allows for the quick load times on GC games in comparison to PS2 and allows it to have load times similar to X-box without using the harddrive as a buffer. It allows for data to be constantly streamed of the disc at a consistent speed. As state earlier, if the disc stopped spinning, when you started the game back up there would be a huge pause before you could start playing again.

Darc Requiem
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Offline Yenko

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2003, 10:32:00 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Darc Requiem
Quote

Originally posted by: theaveng
Quote

Originally posted by: BlkPaladin
The disc doesn't stop spinning because they use a CAV drive that continously spins...
How does using a Constant Angular Velocity drive require the disc keep spinning?


The disc spins at one constant speed hence the name. The allows for the quick load times on GC games in comparison to PS2 and allows it to have load times similar to X-box without using the harddrive as a buffer. It allows for data to be constantly streamed of the disc at a consistent speed. As state earlier, if the disc stopped spinning, when you started the game back up there would be a huge pause before you could start playing again.

Darc Requiem


The PS2 and Xbox both use CAV drives so it's not something exclusive to the GC. In fact, using the smaller discs with a CAV drive hurts the maximum transfer rate the GC is capable of. Although it doesn't matter much since you can't tell.

CAV drives don't stream data from the disc at a constant rate. The tranfer rate will increase towards the outer part of the disc and decrease towards the inner part of the disc because CAV drives use a constant rotationaly speed and variable transfer rate while CLV drives use a variable rotation speed and constant tranfer rate. I think this is where most people get confused; it's constant rotationaly speed, not constantly spinning that seperates it from a CLV drive.

The "start and stop" term used with CLV drives refers to the drive speeding up and slowing down depending on which part of the disc it's reading. The disc never actually stops spinning though.


Offline BlackGriffen

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2003, 06:50:31 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Oogle
This "wear and tear" that everyone speaks about is very minimal, if not, non-existant.  The spinning device doesn't run on gears like a car engine.  It runs on an electric motor.  That means there are no connecting parts between the spindle and the motor.  There are probably just ball bearings or fluid to reduce viscosity.  This also means that the GC has no brake pads either.  The motor itself acts as the brake by stopping it's pole oscillation.  That's why the disc keeps spinning when you turn off the power.  When the motor is off, there's nothing to stop the spindle from spinning.

Ugh! Look at the diagram on the web page you linked. What connects the battery to the rotor? That's right, electrical contacts. Whenever an electrical contact that has current running through it is broken there is a spark (even if too small to see). These sparks tends to build up carbon on the contacts, increasing both mechanical and electrical resistance. Also, the more current you have to put through these contacts, the bigger the sparks formed, and the faster gunk builds up. Eventually, it kills the motor. Now, to spin up a disk you need to supply enough torque to accelerate it and enough torque to overcome drag/friction. Once you have the system spun up, you only need to match the torque from drag/friction. Thus it takes more current to spin the disk up (especially if you want to spin it up fast), and spinning up is harder on the motor than maintaining speed. There are more falure points to the system than this, though. Running currents through the wires generate heat. Rapid changes in current through a wire tend to lead to temperature differences in the wire, causing it to bend under what are called thermal stresses (e.g. what breaks the filament in an incandescent light bulb is the rapid heating and cooling that causes the filament to bend). These are the two immediate failure modes that come to my mind, and note that both are most likely during spin-up. I don't know if they use such motors, though. For instance, it is possible to rotate the magnet and surround it with coils. This is conventially avoided because it requires more wiring, but it is more reasonable to control such a motor with a solid state circuit. Though that would require some sensor so that the circuit knows how fast the motor is running, and that sensor becomes another failure point (though it seems like it would be less susceptible to damage from spin up and spin down). You'd have to ask an enginner to find out about other possible ways for a motor to fail. The ball bearings come to mind as one, though I don't see a reason they would care about the amount of torque on the spindle (except, of course, in the situation where the force on the spindle is not a perfect torque, and the ball bearings need to provide extra force to keep lined up).

Quote

So, actually the opposite is true.  It's more likely a good thing to see that the disc keeps spinning when the GC is turned off.  It shows that there is very little friction between the spindle and the ball bearings/fluid.  If it were to stop immediately after powering off, I'd be worried that the ball bearings are broken or somehow fused to the spindle.

You missed the point: the poster wanted to know why the disc never spun down during play, even if the system was just sitting there for a 1/2 hour.

BlackGriffen

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2003, 05:58:33 AM »

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2003, 05:58:35 AM »

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2003, 05:58:36 AM »

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2003, 05:58:38 AM »
I was also concerned about wear.  Keeping the motor spinning for 30 minutes while I watched the news seemed like un-necessary wear to me.  But when you're actually playing, having the disc spin constantly is better than having it start-n-stop all the time.  The latter would create a lot more damage than just continually spining.

Are you sure PS2 and Xbox use CAV drives?  I thought DVDs were a CLV standard.

Troy

Offline theaveng

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Why Does the Gamecube Disc Keep Spinning?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2003, 05:58:39 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Darc RequiemThe disc spins at one constant speed hence the name. The allows for the quick load times on GC games in comparison to PS2 and allows it to have load times similar to X-box...
I see.  So then "because it's a CAV drive" is not the reason it keeps spinning.  The reason it keeps spinning is for faster disc access:
- The CAV drive could stat and stop just like a normal drive.
- Vice-versa, a Constant Linear Velocity/CLV drive could keep spinning in a PS2 or Xbox.

Troy