Author Topic: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?  (Read 117259 times)

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Offline Mario

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2008, 09:32:22 PM »
GameCube just isn't taking off. Nintendo needs to show more gameplay footage in ads. Joe Football Player NEEDS to appreciate Mario Sunshine damn it! Ram it down consumers throats! They'll LOVE that! You know what, Nintendo needs to reach a wider audience to get up there with the big guys. No more relying on franchise games, how about something new and creative that doesn't scare people away. And a realistic Zelda.

Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2008, 09:46:00 PM »
Pfffff, you want Nintendo to be third again?
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2008, 04:19:37 AM »
I think everyone is doing it wrong.  Forced HD is just as restrictive and stupid as no HD at all.  It should be an option and developers should then make the call themselves about whether or not their game should support it.

But you forget that HD support would make the hardware more expensive, and Nintendo wants to actually profit from their consoles unlike MS and Sony. If they included HD support then they would either have to charge more for their console, or else sell it at a loss. What they are doing by leaving HD out makes perfect sense - especially since most consumers don't even have HD TVs to make use of it just yet. In the end, HD does make a sharper picture, but it has absolutely no impact on playability or fun factor of games.

It is the gimped hardware that is more the problem.  By being too different the decision for a third party is either "X360 and PS3" or "just Wii".  The Wii is a great option if using the remote makes sense but for a game that uses a "normal" controller the other consoles are more ideal.  Make a "traditional" game on the Wii and there is a hardware limit that the other consoles don't have.  The Wii isn't better or even equal, it's just different.

Actually, I think the nunchuck arrangement has proven that any traditional sort of game can be done on the Wii. The only real problem is that the motion control is there, and most developers think they must incorporate it somehow, but that isn't the case at all. I remember the DS was like that in it's first year or two on the market. Every developer seemed to think it was necessary to make use of the touch screen, so you even had games like Castlevania requiring the touch screen to draw seals after beating bosses, but it wasn't really necessary, and the developers seemed to have learned from that because now there are lots of DS games which don't rely on the touch screen at all.

The Wii is like this now, and many developers want to tack on motion controls where it isn't necessary and doesn't make any sense, but they don't have to. The Nunchuck and Wii-mote combo have all the analog sticks and buttons necessary for traditional gaming. All they have to do is just ignore the motion aspect. Plus, there's also the Classic Controller too. So the Wii has no real difficulty handling traditional games.

Plus I think the kids console crap is still very much alive.  Sh!t like friend codes doesn't help.  Neither does promoting grandmothers playing your console.  Neither does the lack of HD or the "weaker" hardware.  Kid focused products are often dumbed down and the Wii is very blatantly dumbed down.  I remember when the N64 had cartridges, many people I knew assumed Nintendo did that because they're easier for kids to understand.  Once the idea is in their head people are going to look at any irregular decision and come to the conclusion they want from it.  You dumb stuff down and then promote the whole family playing and you're just damning the console to be full of third party kid focused crap.  But then how else would they get the non-gamer market?  I'll admit I can't think of a solution to that.

I know what you mean, by the "kiddie" crap, but it really makes no sense whatsoever since the Median age for a Wii owner/player is a good deal higher than the Median age of their 360 or PS3 counterparts. The 360 and PS3 are actually the immature consoles, if you think about it.

Nintendo is the kid that gets made fun of a school and shows up the next day wearing a pink shirt and suspenders.  It's the bully target that you feel sorry for, but still seems to bring it on themselves.  They shouldn't pick on you, but do you have to be such a weenie little dork?  Third parties shouldn't jerk Nintendo around but Nintendo shouldn't give them so many excuses to.  I'd like to see Nintendo design a console without any blatantly obvious cons or tradeofs or lame excuses that might make a developer question support.  They've been shooting themselves in the foot for three consoles now and, surprise, they've had sh!tty third party support all throughout.  Despite regaining the top spot with the Wii, Nintendo has still never given themselves a fair playing field.  If they ever do I imagine things will improve dramatically, regardless of what market share they have going in.

They've definitely made some mistakes here and there, but they've managed to remain profitable all this time, even though their last two consoles are labeled "failures". Could they have done better? Absolutely, but at least they are still a 1st party unlike Sega, Atari, or 3D0. Heck, they must have learned from some of their mistakes because they are the market leader again. I think the "kiddie console" stigma is beginning to loosen up a bit, because now we're seeing things like No More Heroes and Bully, when stuff like this was unheard of in the GC era.
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Offline animecyberrat

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2008, 08:43:05 AM »
I call BS on having HD would cost more money for Nintendo. The Xbox AND PS2 both could do HD why can't the Wii? Don't tell me adding HD output would raise the cost of hardware because that is bogus. The added development cost is BS also, it does not take much more to create higher res textures as people think. It is not the HD that drives up the cost of the other consoles, it is all the other garbage they have crammed into their little boxes. Look at the Core 360, it started life out a mere $50.00 higher than Wii is right now.

The 360 and Ps3 have more powerful processors and graphics chips, both which likely cost more than the CPU/GPU in the Wii, along with additional ram, and a few other tweaks, that is what makes them cost more, not the being able to output in HD. The Game Cubes GPU was surely capable of higher resolutions that 720 x 480, if that same chip was in a PC it would easily display in 1280 x 1024, which is higher than the necessary 1200 x 720 needed to output in HD. They could still do 720P easily with the existing hardware, it is only a matter of Nintendo not caring enough to make it possible. They don't even need anything extra if they Wii can already display in 480p and the GPU is more than capable of going higher res than that 720p is not even a stretch.

Everyone who says going HD for Wii knows nothing about what is required to do HD in the first place. I do not buy that excuse at all, it wouldn't take anything more than a firmware update to go at least 720p with the current hardware, that is all up to Nintendo. Now the system can't do better graphics than it was designed to do no matter what, up to now no dev has even tried to push it because they are assuming it is nothing more than a GC with a waggle wand.

Nintendo chose not to go HD because they knew with the hardware they had showing Wii graphics in higher resolutions wouldn't make them look any better and they didn't want to put in any extra effort and assumed if they didn't nobody else would. Pure stubbornness plain and simple. It isn't even too late to get at least 720p out of the Wii and not too far of a stretch to imagine in the next year or two they might even figure out how to make it happen. 
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2008, 08:51:54 AM »
HD doesn't need much more hardware but it emphasizes the flaws in the graphics, indirectly requiring more power because otherwise everything looks ugly.

BTW, the gamecube's fillrate was chosen to exactly cover a 640x480 framebuffer, a larger framebuffer would mean the fillrate would be too small.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2008, 01:03:19 PM »
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The Nunchuck and Wii-mote combo have all the analog sticks and buttons necessary for traditional gaming. All they have to do is just ignore the motion aspect. Plus, there's also the Classic Controller too. So the Wii has no real difficulty handling traditional games.

Well I disagree about the Nunchuk/remote combo having all that's necessary.  It doesn't even have dual analog sticks.  But it is pretty close and like you said the Classic Controller is right there.

The Wii is capable of handling traditional games, it's just from a hardware perspective the worst option.  If you're a developer and who have ambitious ideas that won't use the remote the PS3 or X360 are going to take you further.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2008, 01:21:39 PM »
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The Nunchuck and Wii-mote combo have all the analog sticks and buttons necessary for traditional gaming. All they have to do is just ignore the motion aspect. Plus, there's also the Classic Controller too. So the Wii has no real difficulty handling traditional games.

Well I disagree about the Nunchuk/remote combo having all that's necessary.  It doesn't even have dual analog sticks.  But it is pretty close and like you said the Classic Controller is right there.

The Wii is capable of handling traditional games, it's just from a hardware perspective the worst option.  If you're a developer and who have ambitious ideas that won't use the remote the PS3 or X360 are going to take you further.

We've seen many ambitious new ideas on PS3 and Xbox 360.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2008, 01:55:04 PM »
Ian, define traditional. Many traditional genres would benefit from having motion controls or IR pointing.

Offline Armak88

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2008, 02:34:24 PM »
What traditional games really require the second analogue stick? The only ones I can think of are FPS's and using the IR on the remote is a vastly superior control scheme. Other than that the second analogue stick was mostly used for changing the camera angle, and Mario Galaxy did just fine without it and it is more movement oriented than any game I've ever played on any system.

The only true draw back that I see is the lack of face buttons. The control pad on the remote is uncomfortable to reach the up button with your thumb and the 1 and 2 buttons are in an awkward position. Still I didn't have any problems with Twilight Princess, so perhaps all the traditional control schemes just need to be tweaked slightly to work.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2008, 02:43:21 PM »
Yes I do contest to the IR superiority over a stick.  In Bully you use the IR a lot (Works really really well), except for when I had to use this Potato cannon.  That mission really sucked because of my accuracy was trashed without the IR.  Maybe thats because I had to use the left joystick for aiming though.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2008, 02:51:41 PM »
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Ian, define traditional. Many traditional genres would benefit from having motion controls or IR pointing.

I would argue that only a handful of genres benefit from motion controls and point to waggle as proof of that.  By "traditional" I mean a game that uses a traditional controller.  If a developer wants to make a game that does not use the remote the PS3 and Xbox 360 provide more flexibility.  "Well that's just better graphics so it doesn't matter."  Doesn't matter to you maybe but to some pretentious wank like Hideo Kojima or that Dead or Alive guy it does matter.  "Who cares about them?"  Well with third party support you're not going to get anywhere if you have too many tradeoffs and developers have to compromise their ideas.

Nintendo isn't designing the games for the third parties.  So them saying "well you don't need a cutting edge presentation because you can use this different control scheme" isn't always going to fly.  They can't tell third parties what they want.  Is it really any different than "well you don't need online play because you can use connectivity with the GBA"?  The only difference is the remote is popular with consumers and connectivity sure as hell wasn't.  It's the same old Nintendo designing a console solely with their own use in mind and having crappy third party support due to the resulting tunnel-vision design.

Offline Kairon

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2008, 03:00:45 PM »
It's the same old Nintendo designing a console solely with their own use in mind and having crappy third party support due to the resulting tunnel-vision design.

Really? I'd argue that third-party support is the best we've seen on a Nintendo console since the SNES.
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Offline Mashiro

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2008, 03:03:42 PM »
It sure doesn't feel like the Wii has a lot of games . . .

I don't need people to ramble off a list to me of good/great games all I know is I barely play the system.

As was said in other threads to me, and I agree, it could be because my tastes in games are shifting. All I know is, I was a Nintendo hardcore gamer for all my life but now I am final going to take the plunge and get a 360 and/or a PS3 to fulfill my gaming needs.

The Wii's current line up of games just isn't cutting it, for me.

Offline Kairon

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2008, 03:11:49 PM »
It sure doesn't feel like the Wii has a lot of games . . .

I don't need people to ramble off a list to me of good/great games all I know is I barely play the system.

As was said in other threads to me, and I agree, it could be because my tastes in games are shifting. All I know is, I was a Nintendo hardcore gamer for all my life but now I am final going to take the plunge and get a 360 and/or a PS3 to fulfill my gaming needs.

The Wii's current line up of games just isn't cutting it, for me.

That's perfectly fine. I think we can all agree that the Wii is not the PS2. But we can also agree that the Wii is seeing a resurgence in third party attention for a Nintendo platform after the declines of the N64 and GC periods.

Myself however, as a Nintendo-only gamer, the Wii is getting a lod of the games I used to envy other systems for: DDR, Parappa the Rapper games, quirks like PuchiCopter (which I relate in my head to Ka, that PS2 mosquito game...)... these are the games that I envied PS2 owners for, and these are the games I'm delighted to find on the Wii now.

The real reward for being the market leader is being the defacto home for niche titles and quirky titles that try out new things. I've never had such a feast of options before as a Nintendo-only owner.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 03:28:06 PM by Kairon »
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2008, 04:13:47 PM »
I think an argument can be made that Wii is opening up the possibility of EXPANDING what developers can do. Look what they did with PES which is arguably the greatest innovation ever in sports gaming. Zack and Wiki is another and let's not forget Boom Blox which is extremely innovative and would NOT have been possible elsewhere.
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2008, 04:29:19 PM »
This thread makes no sense to me because I don't have time to play many games, so the games that are out seem like TOO many. I actually wish the major game releases would trickle out like they used to.

I've barely touched brawl, i still need to finish NMH and Galaxy properly, tons of cars to unlock in Excitetruck still, not 1 but 2 trauma centers to get thru, and Mario Kart comes out when!?!?!?
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Offline animecyberrat

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2008, 04:31:42 PM »
I still think all we can do is give it more time. Like it was said, if E3 comes along and still no changes, then we have a right to complain.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2008, 04:33:22 PM »
This thread makes no sense to me because I don't have time to play many games, so the games that are out seem like TOO many. I actually wish the major game releases would trickle out like they used to.

I've barely touched brawl, i still need to finish NMH and Galaxy properly, tons of cars to unlock in Excitetruck still, not 1 but 2 trauma centers to get thru, and Mario Kart comes out when!?!?!?

Ian never makes sense, so nothing new here. ;) j/k
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2008, 05:21:51 PM »
By "traditional" I mean a game that uses a traditional controller.
Okay, if you define a game by its controller then obviously no alternate controls will work. Also if you define a traditional controller as a Dualshock then of course any deviation from that design will cause problems (e.g. 6 face buttons and 2 shoulder buttons...). However I'm not sure there's many games that need the exact design of a dualshock, many just use a subset of the buttons on that mess.

Offline animecyberrat

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2008, 05:23:41 PM »
since when has Nintendo ever made "traditional" controllers anyways?
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Offline Mashiro

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2008, 05:28:32 PM »
I would call the SNES controller a traditional controller.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2008, 05:36:16 PM »
Quote
Really? I'd argue that third-party support is the best we've seen on a Nintendo console since the SNES.

"Better" is a relative term.  Just because it might be better than the Gamecube's last few years doesn't mean it's good.  I'd say it being better is iffy anyway.  At this point on the Cube we at least had this promise about Resident Evil exclusivity and Soul Calibur II was going to have Link in it.  None of those really amounted to much but they were something.  Where are the big exclusive third party games that have been annouced that I am unaware of?  I'll count multiplatform games here too provided they're available on the Wii on day one.  I see lots of spin-offs and second tier titles aimed at kids and last-gen ports, just like I saw last year.  At this time with the Cube there were still third party games in the pipeline that were creating a buzz.  What third party Wii game is doing that?  I hear a lot of arguement that third party support is better than the last two gens.  How so?

Offline Mashiro

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2008, 05:42:35 PM »
Yeah the spin off garbage is just plain annoying.

RE:4 for GC made me happy to own a GC. Heck it even made me happy to own a Wii, and then Capcom gives us RE:UC and we (as of now) miss out on 5. Thanks Capcom.

Same for Soul Calibur. SC2 did the best on the Cube (thanks to Link), SC3 goes to PS2 exclusively and now SC4 skips the Wii and instead we get SC Legends.

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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2008, 05:55:26 PM »
You guys act like it's surprising to see third parties cheating Nintendo yet again...
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Offline Mashiro

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2008, 06:08:21 PM »
It's not surprising it's just silly to put up with it when there are better alternatives to go to =)