Poll

Your favorite: Terran, Zerg, or Protoss?

Terran
13 (41.9%)
Zerg
5 (16.1%)
Protoss
13 (41.9%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: The Starcraft mega thread - Rising from the ashes.  (Read 189929 times)

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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #125 on: April 11, 2008, 02:14:49 PM »
I don't know much about no fancy StarCraft book learnin', but that cookie looks mighty tasty.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #126 on: April 11, 2008, 02:45:34 PM »
Wouldn't we also need to know how often all those units attack to answer any of the questions?  Not that I'd bother anyway.

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #127 on: April 11, 2008, 04:41:21 PM »
Zealot Attacks 2 times for every 1 attack of the Ultralisk or Ghost.  It's assumed later on that the attack rate of the Ultralisk and Ghost are the same.
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #128 on: April 11, 2008, 06:24:38 PM »
It would be cooler if the Zerg Extractor connected to the hive with a fleshy umbilicus.

Back to the Warhammer connection, is it true that former Warhammer guru Andy Chambers is working with Blizzard these days?
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2008, 12:36:26 AM »
Back to the Warhammer connection, is it true that former Warhammer guru Andy Chambers is working with Blizzard these days?

From Wikipedia:

Chambers is currently the Creative Director of Blizzard Entertainment, working on Starcraft II.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #130 on: April 12, 2008, 02:31:59 AM »
Meh, calculations like that is why Starcraft is so annoying. I hope this time it's at least visible which unit is what kind of target, DoW told you what class a target has and what classes a weapon is good against in the tooltips.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #131 on: April 13, 2008, 10:48:35 AM »
Meh, calculations like that is why Starcraft is so annoying. I hope this time it's at least visible which unit is what kind of target, DoW told you what class a target has and what classes a weapon is good against in the tooltips.

The calculations aren't actually necessary.  The game can be enjoyed without knowing all of the numbers and technical jargon associated with it.  The numbers game is really only for the players that are hard core into Starcraft.  I will go into detail about the changes and improvements to user interface later this week.

You seem absolutely in love with Warhammer and I have a feeling I may not get to play any SC2 with you when it comes out.  I know the feeling though.  SC was my first RTS and I compared everything else to it.  "It's just not SC enough for me." is what I'd always say after playing any other RTS.  It's that narrow minded focus that made me miss out on a lot of good RTS titles and enhancements to the genre.  I guess we just like a certain something and stick with it.  Kinda like Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat back in the day.

On a side note, did you see the Warhammer 2 announcement?  Here's the teaser trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Vq2p60A7I

No gameplay yet, but any news is good news, right?  Maybe we'll get SC2 and Dow2 around the same time and can start an epic flame war thread!   ;D
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #132 on: April 13, 2008, 05:54:02 PM »
Thanks for the link to that DOW II video. 

I gurgle with discontent at the thought of SC/DOW flame threads.  It goes without saying that SC2 is going to sell a bazillion more copies than DOW II ever can, I just hope the DOW franchise sells more than well enough to keep it alive.  I'm keeping a vigil for an online Star Wars: Battlefront-style game set in the 40K universe.  If I'm ever able to sneak around as a Tyranid Lictor and behead Imperial Guardsmen, I'll die peacefully and phase into Nerdvana.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #133 on: April 14, 2008, 02:17:54 AM »
All DOW II needs is Tyrannids and its sales success is assured.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #134 on: April 14, 2008, 06:49:49 AM »
You seem absolutely in love with Warhammer and I have a feeling I may not get to play any SC2 with you when it comes out.  I know the feeling though.  SC was my first RTS and I compared everything else to it.  "It's just not SC enough for me." is what I'd always say after playing any other RTS.  It's that narrow minded focus that made me miss out on a lot of good RTS titles and enhancements to the genre.  I guess we just like a certain something and stick with it.  Kinda like Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat back in the day.
I think Relic tries to be more inventive and makes much more interesting games as a result, the balancing isn't as great as Blizzard's but the tactical and strategic options you get are much greater.

I don't expect SC to PLAY like TA, I just expect it to CONTROL at least at the same standard. I spend way too much time fighting the interface in Starcraft, with a proper UI you don't need a high APM to do stuff.

And yeah, you'll probably never see me in SC2 MP, I'm just not too much into conservative game design. C&C3 was just bland and I'm not sure I'd like playing Starcraft++ either.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #135 on: April 14, 2008, 08:26:51 AM »


The Protoss Gateway



The Protoss Gateway is the building that is needed to create the powerful Protoss ground forces.  Like all Protoss buildings, the building is warped in by a Probe as long as it’s within range of a pylon.  The Gateway is used to make the following units:


The Zealot
"My life for Aiur!"


The Immortal
"We march to victory!"


The Stalker
"From the shadows I come."


The Dark Templar
"Adun Toridas."


The High Templar
"Khassar de Templari."

The Gateway also has one more trick up it’s sleeve which will be revealed tomorrow.  Stay tuned.
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Gateways, not just for PC's anymore.
« Reply #136 on: April 14, 2008, 10:59:58 AM »
Thanks for the link to that DOW II video. 

I gurgle with discontent at the thought of SC/DOW flame threads.  It goes without saying that SC2 is going to sell a bazillion more copies than DOW II ever can, I just hope the DOW franchise sells more than well enough to keep it alive.  I'm keeping a vigil for an online Star Wars: Battlefront-style game set in the 40K universe.  If I'm ever able to sneak around as a Tyranid Lictor and behead Imperial Guardsmen, I'll die peacefully and phase into Nerdvana.

I actually LOLed at the Nerdvana reference.  Nice.  The DOW franchise has gotten great reviews and as long as they continue putting out quality expansions, I see no reason for the franchise to go away.  I good Star Wars RTS would be great, but they haven't really nailed it quite yet.  Don't know why either, maybe they just need a better developer to take the reins.

I think Relic tries to be more inventive and makes much more interesting games as a result, the balancing isn't as great as Blizzard's but the tactical and strategic options you get are much greater.

I don't expect SC to PLAY like TA, I just expect it to CONTROL at least at the same standard. I spend way too much time fighting the interface in Starcraft, with a proper UI you don't need a high APM to do stuff.

And yeah, you'll probably never see me in SC2 MP, I'm just not too much into conservative game design. C&C3 was just bland and I'm not sure I'd like playing Starcraft++ either.

Well, I can assure you that the UI has been updated quite a bit for SC2, but it will still play like SC1.  I think the biggest problem with SC2 is SC1's legacy.  If they vary it too much then no one will like it and go back to SC1.  SC1 fans are probably some of the most fickle fans in gaming and trying to satisfy them is next to impossible.  Actually, that sounds a lot like Nintendo fans come to think of it.   ;)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 11:10:58 AM by bosshogx »
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Gateways, not just for PC's anymore.
« Reply #137 on: April 15, 2008, 08:10:18 AM »


The Protoss Warpgate



The Protoss Warpgate is the result of backwards engineering the technology of the Xel’Naga, the ancient race responsible for the creation of the Protoss and the Zerg.  On command, any Gateway can transform itself into a Warpgate.  The Warpgate can deploy any ground unit the Gateway can, but can deploy them to any location on the map that has pylon power.  This means that you can quickly send units to the front lines, reinforce island expansions, or attack enemy bases from places they wouldn’t normally expect.

The Warpgate can only send one unit at a time and needs to go offline to cool down after warping in a unit.  The duration of the cool down is equal to the time it would normally take to create the unit.  This will not allow the Protoss to queue up more units like a normal Gateway can.  Also, be careful not to lose the source of Pylon power when warping in units.  If the power field is lost while a unit is warping in, the unit is killed and the money spent on it is lost.  The Warpgate can only transport in new units and cannot warp existing units around the map.

Using a Warpgate requires more attention by the controlling player as each unit must be called in and placed on the map accordingly.  Warpgates can be changed back into Gateways at any time the player wants.

Transforming a Gateway into a Warpgate.
As you can see, the entire process takes about ten seconds.

Warping in units.
Check out this video to see warping in action.  The video starts with four Stalkers coming into battle.  Later, at the 1:40 mark, you can see how the player uses Phase Prisms to set up energy fields which allow Zealots to join the action.  I wouldn't recommend watching anymore unless you want spoilers!
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #138 on: April 15, 2008, 09:08:15 AM »
Is it really that fast to make units?
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #139 on: April 15, 2008, 09:31:32 AM »
Is it really that fast to make units?

Probably not, I think they were just warping in that fast for the demo.  The warp in time will be quick though because the warpgate has to cool down after making the unit.  The cool down time is equal to the time it would take to normally make the unit.  Kinda like how Hyper Beam hits hard but tires out the Pokemon for the turn after.

Pokemon references=win :)
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Offline Sundoulos

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #140 on: April 15, 2008, 09:37:38 AM »
Is it really that fast to make units?

I'd be interested to know that as well.

Interesting, if the Warp Gate does bring them in that quickly.  Is there an additional cost tradeoff for warping units, or is the cool down period the only drawback?

That really changes the dynamic of Protoss defense.  The one thing that bothered me about the Protoss was the very slooooow build times of each unit.  This would be great if you needed quick reinforcements. 
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #141 on: April 15, 2008, 11:29:51 AM »
I'd be interested to know that as well.

Interesting, if the Warp Gate does bring them in that quickly.  Is there an additional cost tradeoff for warping units, or is the cool down period the only drawback?

That really changes the dynamic of Protoss defense.  The one thing that bothered me about the Protoss was the very slooooow build times of each unit.  This would be great if you needed quick reinforcements.

From everything I've read, the Warp Gate will bring the units to their warp in locations quickly with the only drawback being the cool down time.  No extra cost involved.  There is the extra time between the transformation between Gateway and Warp Gate and the manual locating of each warping unit to consider.

If you are a fast enough player or good at macro management then these drawbacks shouldn't matter too much to you.  If you like to focus more on combat and queuing up units with rally points, then you might want to focus on Gateways instead.  You could always change between Gateways and Warp Gates to suit your current needs as well.
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #142 on: April 15, 2008, 12:59:34 PM »
So pretty much in the end it breaks down:

Gateways:  Pay Unit build time up front, has queue, and units appear at Gateway
Warpgate: Get Unit and then pay build time, No Queue, and unit may appear anywhere with power.

Thats about sums it up.  Losing the Queue though.  Thats interesting.  I was happy when I found out how to Queue buildings.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #143 on: April 16, 2008, 02:28:18 AM »
Manual placement for every unit is micro IMO. Not allowing queueing on the warpgate sounds like typical SC crippling.

If the warpgate needs the same time as the gateway for making units (even if it's a cooldown) that won't allow quick deployment of anything meaningful. If it could create multiple units and teleport the whole force when it's done that'd be something different but a one-by-one trickle of units sounds just like cannonfodder to me.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #144 on: April 16, 2008, 08:54:22 AM »
Manual placement for every unit is micro IMO. Not allowing queueing on the warpgate sounds like typical SC crippling.

If the warpgate needs the same time as the gateway for making units (even if it's a cooldown) that won't allow quick deployment of anything meaningful. If it could create multiple units and teleport the whole force when it's done that'd be something different but a one-by-one trickle of units sounds just like cannonfodder to me.

Manual placement of units is definitely micro, but I don't see how that is crippling.  Look at it this way:

Pros: 
-Warp in units anywhere power is accessible.  Power can be provided by a Phase Prism or a sneaky Probe creating a hidden Pylon.
-No extra cost
-Free transportation of units without the need of a Dropship

Cons:
-Cooldown time equal to creation time
-Manual placement of units increases Micro requirements
-Units could be stranded if no transportation back is researched
-Units can be killed during warp in

The Pros definitely outweigh the Cons.  Adding Micro to the building is a perfect way to balance the buildings strength.  As a player, you have the option of warping in a bunch of units before you attack.  It also doesn't take many Protoss units to overwhelm an enemy, especially in an open field situation.  The element of surprise is what makes this ability incredible.

In my opinion, if you could queue up warping units it would be a broken ability.  The warp in removes the rally point aspect by instantly placing your unit at a location as opposed to having them walk there.  Imagine if you just attacked a enemy and wiped out a good portion of his defenses.  You could easily warp in a group of units to finish them off before they had a chance to build up new units.  Sure, you have to wait for the cool down, but the damage would be done.  That's just one example of how flexible this ability makes the Protoss. 

One of the best aspects of SC is the great balance between Mirco and Macro.  If you lean to far in one direction or the other the game isn't the same anymore and becomes to one sided.  Warcraft 3 is an example of too much focus on Micro where as Supreme Commander has too large a focus on Macro.  Don't get me wrong, both games are very good at what they do, but the style just isn't for me.  Macro players tend to make larger armies and send them into battle and focus on creating reinforcements to overwhelm their opponent.  Micro players will focus on a smaller army and utilize spell casters to defeat an opponents army.  The problem is that nobody, no matter how good they are, can be everywhere all the time.  As a player you need to decide where to focus your attention and make quick decisions.

In summary, giving the Protoss army the ability to flank and surprise any location gives them a huge advantage.  Even if your not using the ability, just the fact that you can do it will get inside your opponents head.  The more things your opponent has to worry about, the less he will be focused on other matters at hand.  Mind games are just as important, if not more than, hand speed and tech tree memorization.

Sorry for my long posts, I tend to type and ramble too much.   :-[
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Two to beam to the surface. Energize.
« Reply #145 on: April 16, 2008, 08:55:16 AM »


Updating the User Interface

The original Starcraft was released back on March 31st, 1998.  While the game has been heralded as one of the best RTS titles of all time, the games user interface really shows its age.  Over the last decade, the RTS interface has changed and evolved quite a bit.  Starcraft 2 will integrate several changes to its interface in order to bring it up to more modern RTS titles.  It won’t include every change imaginable, just the ones that won’t cause the fundamental gameplay to be affected.  These changes will certainly help reduce the learning curve for newer players and allow seasoned fans to reduce the amount of things they need to worry about and focus more on the battling and economy.  I’ve included what I know to be true via developer comments or through screenshots.  This list may not include all of the changes to the final game.

I’ll be using the following screenshot to show some of the changes:



It’s quite a battle we have going on here, but more importantly, it shows off several improvements to the UI.  The first thing to notice is that the player has a single SCV selected at the current time.  A new feature is being shown here as the SCV is being ordered to build multiple structures.  The SCV will complete the first structure and then immediately start the next one.  You can tell that this is happening by the wire framed green structures in the screenshot.  By ordering up several structures to be built in a certain order, it allows the player to concentrate on other tasks at hand, such as the enemy attack he’s facing.  It looks as though the SCV will be making a total of four Missle Turrets, assuming it survives the attacking enemy army.

Next let’s focus on the upper left corner:



These are menu commands that can be accessed by pressing the appropriate F# key.

-The F9 key will bring up map objectives such as destroy all enemy buildings, go to X location on map, survive X minutes, ect.
-The F10 key will bring up the menu screen to change the game speed, sound effects, and other options
-The F11 key will bring up alliances.  This will allow you to ally other players in skirmishes or unally them to backstab them.  Not advised.
-The F12 key gives you access to your races Tech Tree.  This is extremely helpful for newer players that haven’t memorized what buildings are needed to make what.

Moving along to the upper right corner:



Starting on the left we have the players current mineral amount, then their vespene gas amount, and finally their current and maximum unit counts.  Looks like this player has too much money and not enough units.

In the lower left corner we have the mini map, shown here:



The mini map is used to see what’s going on in the battlefield even if your not focused on it.  The mini map is an essential tool of any RTS and games can be won or lost depending on whether your paying attention to it or not.  On the mini map, the player’s units are always represented as green, no matter what your actual unit colors wind up being.  In this screen shot, the player is the red Terran, but shows up as green in the mini map.  The enemy always shows up in the mini map in their actual color, in this case teal.

In addition, when your units fall under attack, the mini map will draw a red box to show you exactly where the attack is taking place.  There will also be an audio clue, and upon hearing the warning, the player can press the spacebar to be taken to the last update.  This is an important hotkey to remember.

To the right of the mini map are three symbols.  The first one up top is a circle which I have no idea what it does.  Sorry.  The middle symbol can be used to turn the terrain off in the mini map to make it easier to distinguish enemy forces and money on the mini map.  The final symbol is another way to assign alliances with other players.

The last thing to note is the SCV symbol located above and to the left of the mini map.  This icon tells the player that he has a worker unit that is idle and not doing anything.  This player has one unit idle as indicated by the 1 in the lower right corner.  If the player clicks on this button, your screen will be immediately focused on that unit.  If there are multiple units, the player can cycle through them by continually clicking on the button.  If that number is large, you may have finished mining all the money at a location and now have a bunch of idle workers.  Remember, idle workers mean no money is coming into the coffers.  Make sure to keep your workers busy.

Next, we have the unit box:



This box gives you a wealth of information about your selected unit.  This picture shows us the SCV’s hit points, a wire frame of his model, his armor level, his attack level, his kill count, and his type modifiers.

-The hit points let you know how close the unit is away from death.
-The wire frame is a visual indicator to see how damaged a unit is at a glance.  The frame goes from green to yellow to red.  If you see a bunch of red units, you may want to get them fixed up asap.  This is extremely useful when you have multiple units selected in a group and don’t have the time to look at their individual hit points.
-The armor value is the box on the left.  Currently, the SCV has an armor level of 0.  If you hover the mouse over this button, the armor type will appear.  The armor types are light, armored, or building.
-The weapon value is the box to the right of the armor level.  If you hover your mouse over this button, the attack strength and modifiers will show up.  Had this been a Ghost unit, the attack strength would have displayed as “6 + 12 vs light”.
-The kill count shows how many enemy units this unit has slain.  Not much strategic value, just kind of neat to look at.
-The unit type modifiers, if any, are displayed along the bottom.  This SCV is classified as Fleshy, Mechanical, and Hover.  These can be both good and bad depending on the spells and modifiers of your other units and your enemies units.
-Although it’s difficult to make out in the picture, there is a small number 1 in a box over the unit box to the left of the wire frame.  That number can change from 0-9 and represents which group this unit is in.  Say you have a group of 30 marines selected.  By holding the Ctrl key, you can assign them as a group to any of the number keys.  You can even assign the same unit to multiple groups.  By tapping the number key that they are assigned to, you can recall the group or center on them at any time.  This is essential for controlling large groups of units in the middle of a game.  No unit game has been given for group size and as of this writing it is an unlimited selection.

Finally, the lower right corner:



Here we have the unit command window.  Any and all commands that you can issue a unit can be found here.  All units share the top row of commands which are (from left to right):

-Move without attacking
-Move and attack
-Stop moving
-Patrol from one spot to another attacking enemy units that appear
-Hold position and only attack enemy units within attack range

The next two rows are reserved for special techniques, spells, and abilities for each type of unit.  In our example, the second row features the SCV’s ability to repair units and mine resources.  On the bottom row, we see that the SCV can build basic and advanced structures.

That’s it for the user interface.  There is a lot more to cover, but this is a good stopping point.  I’ll update more UI changes in a future update.
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Offline decoyman

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Anatomy of a screenshot.
« Reply #146 on: April 16, 2008, 11:53:24 AM »
Hey, about the protoss warp point thing... coud you set the warp point as a rally point for new units you're creating? If so, as one finished warping, another would finish creating and walk to the warp point to go to the new location. That would be kinda cool, and would eliminate some of the micromanaging that's bugging KDR so much.

(I kinda doubt this is possible, but still...)
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Anatomy of a screenshot.
« Reply #147 on: April 16, 2008, 01:46:38 PM »
I'm saying the UI is crippling since there's no reason they can't implement queueing.

BTW, the wireframe is kinda clunky, a health bar would have the same effect...

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Anatomy of a screenshot.
« Reply #148 on: April 16, 2008, 02:56:39 PM »
Hey, about the protoss warp point thing... coud you set the warp point as a rally point for new units you're creating? If so, as one finished warping, another would finish creating and walk to the warp point to go to the new location. That would be kinda cool, and would eliminate some of the micromanaging that's bugging KDR so much.

(I kinda doubt this is possible, but still...)

No, what you're describing wouldn't work with the cooldown time being involved.  It's like your Warpgate shuts down after warping in a unit.  I actually had a long explanation typed out, but then read that the developers are changing the cooldown time for Warpgates.  Warpgates still will not have a queue ability, but in exchange will have shorter cooldown times in general.  It's being tested for balance, but players with good micro can now outproduce players with macro skills that rely on queuing.  Interesting balance there,  I like it.

The Warpgate seems to be a good choice for quick strike attacks, surprise flanking moves, and players with real good micromanagement.  Gateways would be the way to go if you prefer a more macro style of game.  Both Gates have there own uses at different times during a game and the best players will find a way to utilize them together.

I'm saying the UI is crippling since there's no reason they can't implement queueing.

BTW, the wireframe is kinda clunky, a health bar would have the same effect...

They haven't implemented it since it appears to be unbalanced.  Further testing may prove otherwise and they will add it to the game.  We'll see.

As far as the wireframe is concerned, it's really there as a quick glance color indicator for the player when moving large groups of units.  The wireframe has been carried over from SC1 and I have gotten used to it.  It helps when I have a group of units that need to be repaired.  I can select the group and choose the damaged ones to be repaired by my SCV's.  This is helpful since units don't show any signs of damage no matter what their current hit point levels, unlike buildings which show visual effects to indicate damage.

There are still a few UI features that I haven't mentioned at this time.  One of the new features is pressing the Alt key to bring up hit point/energy bars for all units and buildings on the screen.  It's just a different way of getting information quickly on the fly, as opposed to looking at colored wire frames.  I have a feeling I'll be using this quite a bit.
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Anatomy of a screenshot.
« Reply #149 on: April 17, 2008, 05:31:23 AM »
I would guess that button with the circles on it next to the minimap will be a flare button, similar to the flare in AOE.