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Your favorite: Terran, Zerg, or Protoss?

Terran
13 (41.9%)
Zerg
5 (16.1%)
Protoss
13 (41.9%)

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Author Topic: The Starcraft mega thread - Rising from the ashes.  (Read 189960 times)

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Offline Kairon

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #100 on: April 04, 2008, 11:49:54 PM »
I... completely suck at StarCraft.

God I can't wait for SC2 though. The editor will be SO AWESOME, and we're gonn have some absolutely AMAZING Use Map Settings maps. Oh god oh god oh god.
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Offline Smoke39

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #101 on: April 05, 2008, 03:56:14 PM »
I once wanted to make a map with islands for bases with a volcano in the middle that would occasionaly erupt, sending a ring of fire across the map, but it would have required way too many zones or whatever they were called for spawning and immediately destroying units (to create explosions) in progressively larger rings.

Maybe I could scale it down to have it just effect the island that the volcano was on.  And put tons of resources there to give incentive to risk being destroyed by the eruptions. :D
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #102 on: April 05, 2008, 04:11:18 PM »
I... completely suck at StarCraft.

I've always been awful at Blizzard's RTS games.  I can handle Dawn of War or Age of Empires on Expert, but for some reason, Star/WarCraft discombobulates me on Medium.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #103 on: April 06, 2008, 01:47:28 AM »
Maybe it's the retarded interface.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #104 on: April 06, 2008, 07:42:06 AM »
Maybe it's the retarded interface.

Dem's fightin' woids!

No, seriously, what's wrong with the interface?  It's just a mouse and keyboard for control.  Hovering the mouse over icons will tell you what is required to build a unit/building.  The hotkeys are labeled with a colored letter in the unit/buildings name.  Is it that you are more accustom to more modern RTS interfaces?  If so, what makes them easier to understand?

I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you, I've just never played many other RTS's and I don't have a lot of reference for comparison.  I've played Dune and C&C, but I never liked the bar on the right side set up.  I also briefly played the Star Wars RTS that was supposed to be running on the AOE engine, but it wasn't mine and I had to return it.  Anyways, hook a brother up with some insight!
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #105 on: April 06, 2008, 08:23:25 AM »
I'm not talking about ease of understanding, I'm talking about ease of use. 12 unit selection limits, inadequate order queueing, etc. To get stuff done in Starcraft you need a much larger number of actions than in any other game. Use three ghosts to lock three targets down? Gotta select one, select the ability, click the target, repeat. In World in Conflict you'd just select them, hold E and click the targets one after the other. IIRC you cannot queue researches, in C&C generals you could queue two riflemen and then the capture ability, in Starcraft you'd have to go back after the units are complete to select the upgrade. The resource collection has a lot of moving from and to the res points so optimizing the routes is critical and can greatly increase your res output.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #106 on: April 06, 2008, 12:08:13 PM »
I'm not talking about ease of understanding, I'm talking about ease of use. 12 unit selection limits, inadequate order queueing, etc. To get stuff done in Starcraft you need a much larger number of actions than in any other game. Use three ghosts to lock three targets down? Gotta select one, select the ability, click the target, repeat. In World in Conflict you'd just select them, hold E and click the targets one after the other. IIRC you cannot queue researches, in C&C generals you could queue two riflemen and then the capture ability, in Starcraft you'd have to go back after the units are complete to select the upgrade. The resource collection has a lot of moving from and to the res points so optimizing the routes is critical and can greatly increase your res output.

Oh ok, got ya.  Most, if not all of those things you mentioned will be updated in SC2.  Don't forget that SC1 was made 10 years ago and the RTS genre has evolved a lot since then.  The interface is easy for me to understand and use only because I've been playing it for so long.  I'm accustomed to moving manually moving peons to minerals or commanding groups of 12 units.  For someone who started on a more up-to-date interface, Starcraft will seem what it is....dated.  Nothing to be done about that I suppose.  Ten years from now people will be having the same discussion about RTS interfaces being so much easier than the set ups from "back in 2008".

But screw all that, let's play some Starcraft! :)
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #107 on: April 07, 2008, 07:34:25 AM »
The RTS genre already had evolved a lot before Starcraft came out, Total Annihilation had a pretty much unrestricted interface (infinite queues for all commands, for example). IIRC TA predates SC.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Unlimited Power!!
« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2008, 09:09:11 AM »


The Zerg Baneling



The Zerg Baneling is the newest evolution of the regular Zergling.  The Baneling is basically the replacement for the old Infested Terran unit in Starcraft 1.  The Baneling only has one attack: a high damage splash damage suicidal ram.  Sure, you might lose the unit, but the fear factor alone is enough to make your enemy think twice before engaging a Zerg swarm.  Oh, did I mention that they can burrow underground?

Baneling in action

Even the big, bad, Protoss have much to fear from the Baneling.



Baneling or not, the Zerg simply won’t make it up this heavily defended ramp.
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Offline Sundoulos

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - The bane of my existance
« Reply #109 on: April 07, 2008, 12:42:08 PM »
Cool.  I'm glad they've added this ability to the Zerglings.  I liked using infested Terrans, but I never got to use them unless I was in a really long match or near the endgame.  Infesting the Terran command center just took a lot of work because you could only do it when it was almost dead; IMO, it was often more trouble than it was worth.  That's probably just because I wasn't good enough to make good use of the strat...

I was watching an old Starcraft match during lunch on Friday; it's a hobby...a weird one, but a hobby nevertheless.  Anyway, this one was between sAviOr and FirebatHero, the commentator had mentioned that infesting the Terran Command Center was almost never used strategically...apparently, it is mostly used as a sort of an insult.   :)

Of course...then, in the match, Savior, the Zerg player, proceeds to infest the command center 4 or 5 times.   

The video is here...the comment I refered to is around 33:35:
Starcraft MSL match

Part two is here:
Part 2

BTW, It's a long match, which is very unusual at that level of play. 
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - The bane of my existance
« Reply #110 on: April 07, 2008, 09:20:28 PM »
BTW, It's a long match, which is very unusual at that level of play.

Wow, ain't that the truth.  A game over an hour long is quite unusual, but always fun to watch.  The announcer was grating on my nerves at the end of the match with his anti-terran rhetoric.  Using Science Vessel w/irradiate is not cheap.  It can be countered, it's just difficult when your enemy gets that many of them.  One plague on a group of Vessels can spell their doom by just one Mutalisk.  PHEW!

I wish I could watch Starcraft replays during lunch....  :(
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Offline Sundoulos

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - The bane of my existance
« Reply #111 on: April 08, 2008, 12:22:41 AM »
Yes, I didn't really understand his complaint, either, because the Zerg have several rechargeable abilities as well.  sAviOr was using the Defilers' Plague ability to great effect.  In some of his other commentaries, Klazart indicates that he is a Zerg player, so he's probably showing a bit of natural bias.  In the commentaries for the other 4 games in the series, it's very clear who Klazart is pulling for;  I haven't heard him do that in other matches.

I have to admit that after all of that time during the first game, it was anti-climatic for it to end the way it did, but it was still a valid victory.  It's too bad the overall winner of the series showed a lack of class with his stupid dance at the end (of game 5).
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - The bane of my existance
« Reply #112 on: April 08, 2008, 08:16:32 AM »


The Terran Command Center



The Terran Command Center is the heart and soul of the Terran economy.  All of the resources collected have to be brought here.  The Command Center is the only building that can create SCV’s, the standard worker unit of the Terran.  In addition, like most Terran buildings, the Command Center can lift off the ground and fly to new locations.  This time though, the Command Center can load up five SCV’s to allow the Terran to start collecting money as soon as it lands.

Meet the Terrans.

Here is the Command Center landing and deploying it’s SCV units.  As a bonus, this clip shows off the Reactor and Tech Lab from a previous update and is hosted by the nearly world famous Time Traveling Dustin Browder!



The Terrans trying to stave off a Zerg onslaught.  Wait a second?!  Is it me or is there something weird about that Command Center?  ;)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 08:27:01 AM by bosshogx »
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - A floating cash center
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2008, 08:17:20 AM »


The Terran Command Center Add-ons

Choices.  Every person makes choices in their lives, some turn out to be good, others, not so good.  Well, you can’t go wrong with the two add-on structures for the Terran Command Center.  In the past, you had to choose between a Comscan sweeper or a Nuclear silo.  99 out of 100 times, the Comscan sweeper won out.  Nukes just weren’t that effective in Starcraft.  This time, the choice is more difficult.

The Surveillance Station



The Surveillance Station is the replacement for the old Comscan sweeper.  Much like the old Comscan sweeper, for a cost of 50 energy, a player can look at any part of the map to reveal what’s under the fog of war for around 5-7 seconds.  In addition, the Surveillance Station will reveal any cloaked or burrowed units for the length of the scan.  This add on is vital for intelligence gathering and to save your units from cloaked units in a pinch.

Sorry about the picture, it’s the best I could find.

The Planetary Fortress



Now that’s what I’m talking about!  Upgrade your little ole’ Command Center to a killing machine.  A twin set of cannons emerge from the top of the Command Center to protect it and it’s workers from invading forces.  This should definitely help out expansions and island bases that are lacking in firepower.



Get out of my money line!

With all these great add ons, how can I choose which one I want?  Hold up there a second.  Once you upgrade your Command Center it will forever lose it’s ability to fly.  UGH!  So now the question?  Scanner, base protection, or flight w/transport?  Hmmm….
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Offline Sundoulos

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2008, 09:04:16 AM »
So, are nuclear silos completely gone?  That would make me one sad ghost.
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2008, 10:57:54 AM »
So, are nuclear silos completely gone?  That would make me one sad ghost.

No, there still there, they just have their own building now.
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2008, 02:25:42 PM »
Have they locked in that they won't be able to fly?  If so then the Survelliance Station should see cloak and underground units in your base as well.  I could see losing the expansions when you fly off but totally losing flying is totally different.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2008, 02:39:17 PM »
I can't see anyone seriously giving up the survey station for the guns unless the guns are extraordinarily powerful, in which case Blizzard will nerf them and we'll be right back to no one using them.

Offline Sundoulos

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #118 on: April 09, 2008, 03:14:02 PM »
I can't see anyone seriously giving up the survey station for the guns unless the guns are extraordinarily powerful, in which case Blizzard will nerf them and we'll be right back to no one using them.

I could see it being useful in early game situations where you might expect a rush, particularly before underground or cloaked units are used to attack; or if you have to build an expansion in a contested area and need the extra defensive power before you get firmly entrenched.   That being said, I wonder if it is available as an early tech. 
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2008, 03:18:23 PM »
Personally I give them a knockback and make them pretty powerful but, they wouldn't have a huge range.  Your giving up flight, most bases will only have 1 command center, and it can only concentrate on one set of targets at a time by the look of it.  Making it less effective in a rush.
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #120 on: April 09, 2008, 03:35:02 PM »
Have they locked in that they won't be able to fly?  If so then the Survelliance Station should see cloak and underground units in your base as well.  I could see losing the expansions when you fly off but totally losing flying is totally different.

Nothing is locked in at this point, so almost everything I post in this thread could potentially change.  As far as having the Survelliance Station detect cloaked/burrowed units in your base, it would have to be fairly limited in range.  Maybe a circular range encompassing the Command Center.  Honestly, I think that they will change it to make the CC fly again before it's all said and done. 

I can't see anyone seriously giving up the survey station for the guns unless the guns are extraordinarily powerful, in which case Blizzard will nerf them and we'll be right back to no one using them.

Check out this video clip to see the Planetary Fortress in action.  I would recommend starting at the 1:26 mark as to not spoil a future update.  Watch how quickly the Planetary Fortress repels the group of 12 Reapers.  As a bonus, the video shows off the D8 mine that the Reaper now has.  The mines are good versus structures.

I could see it being useful in early game situations where you might expect a rush, particularly before underground or cloaked units are used to attack; or if you have to build an expansion in a contested area and need the extra defensive power before you get firmly entrenched.   That being said, I wonder if it is available as an early tech.

Since there is no more academy, I would imagine the add ons come in to effect once you attach a Tech Lab on to your Barracks.  Just guessing though.  Having one of these on an expansion, especially on an island, would be greatly beneficial.

Personally I give them a knockback and make them pretty powerful but, they wouldn't have a huge range.  Your giving up flight, most bases will only have 1 command center, and it can only concentrate on one set of targets at a time by the look of it.  Making it less effective in a rush.

It can target two units at a time, check out the video above.  In the video, the Planetary Fortress is killing them in pairs.  Seeing as how the Reaper has 45 hp, we can assume it's doing at least that much damage to two different targets at a time.  That's enough to kill most early rushing units, except Zealots.  That's nothing to sneeze at and makes a tough decision for Terran players.
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - I see you or I shoot you.
« Reply #121 on: April 10, 2008, 08:08:12 AM »


Vespine Gas Collectors

Vespine Gas is the second of two resources needed in the world of Starcraft.  If you want to get further along in to your tech tree, Vespine Gas is an absolute must.  Vespine Gas geysers are usually located near mineral patches.  Unlike minerals, Vespine Gas geysers must have a structure built on it before it can be harvested.

The Terran Refinary



My how industrial looking.

The Protoss Assimilator



Now that is elegant.  Almost like a work of art.

The Zerg Extractor



Eww.  That's just nasty.

Nothing to special here.  The Terran SCV builds the Refinary and starts collecting gas when he’s done.  The Protoss Probe warps in the Assimilator and can then continue to mine minerals. Finally, the Zerg Drone mutates itself in to the Extractor.

By the way, good rule of thumb is to have three workers collecting gas.  Any less is inefficient and any more has workers waiting to get in to the collector, thus becoming inefficient too.  The only time this would change is if the gas geyser is further away from the drop off point.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Contain your gas.
« Reply #122 on: April 11, 2008, 07:46:23 AM »
Your titles on the images made me think "shut up, lady!".

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Contain your gas.
« Reply #123 on: April 11, 2008, 08:26:46 AM »


Damage and Armor Types

The old saying in football is that defense wins championships.  I don’t know how true that is, but it certainly has it’s merits in Starcraft 2.  The big difference is knowing the difference between Attack types and Armor types.  In the original Starcraft, the system was very complicated and extremely confusing.  For example:

A Terran Vulture had a ground to ground attack that did 20 points of damage.  This is more than three times the amount of damage that a Marine could do.  So why are they not the weapon of choice against Protoss Dragoons?  Why are Marines a better choice?  The difference is in the Attack type.  The Vulture’s attack type was explosive.  That meant that it did full damage to small lightly armored units.  Great against money gatherers and Marines/Zealots/Zerglings.  That same explosive damage did 75% less to larger armored units.  That means that the Vulture only does 5 points of damage to a Dragoon!  Well, he actually does 20 points to his shields until they run out then 5 damage to the hit points and uh….never mind, it’s too confusing.

The system has been reworked and is a whole lot easier to understand now.  Every unit is classified as having one of three types of armor: Light, Armored, or Building.  Obviously, buildings are the only things that get the Building armor type, leaving Light and Armored for the units.  Units can also be classified as being either Small, Medium, or Large.  Some units get an armor bonus based on their size and power.  You can upgrade the Attack and Armor levels up to three times for all of the units in the game.

I know your head is spinning by now, but let’s put it into some easy to understand terms, with our some of our favorite units.


The Terran Ghost is a small unit with Light armor.  His starting armor value is 0.  His starting attack value is 6.  For each upgrade he gets a +1 to his armor or +1 to his attack.  The Ghost gets a special bonus of +12 vs Light armored units. 

The Protoss Zealot is a small unit with Light armor.  His starting armor value is 1.  His starting attack value is 8 and he attacks twice.  For each upgrade he gets a +1 to his armor or +1 for each attack.

The Zerg Ultralisk is a large unit with Armored armor.  His starting armor value is 1.  His starting attack value is 20 and he can attack two different units at the same time.  For each upgrade he gets a +1 to his armor or +3 for each attack.  The Ultralisk gets a special bonus of +5 vs Buildings.


When the Ghost shoots at the Zealot, he will do 17 points of damage.  6 regular damage + 12 vs Light armor bonus - 1 for the Zealots armor value.

When the Zealot attacks the Ghost he does 16 points of damage.  (8 for each attack – 0 for the Ghost armor) * 2 attacks.

Let’s say the Zealot has his armor and attack upgrade all three times:

The Ghost shoots the Zealot and does 14 points of damage.  6 regular damage + 12 vs Light armor - 4 for the Zealot armor value.

The Zealot attacks the Ghost and does 22 points of damage.  (8 regular damage + 3 damage upgrade - 0 for the Ghost armor value) * 2 attacks.


What about the Ultralisk you ask.  The Ultralisk walks up to the fighting Ghost and Zealot.  Sensing the larger danger, the Ghost and Zealot attack it together.  So:

The Ghost attacks the Ultralisk and does 5 points of damage.  6 regular - 1 for the Ultralisk armor value.  There is no bonus because he is not Light armor type.

The Zealot attacks the Ultralisk and does 14 points of damage.  (8 regular damage - 1 for the Ultralisk armor value) * 2 attacks.

The Ultralisk attacks the Ghost for 20 points of damage and the Zealot for 19 points of damage.  (20 regular - 0 for the Ghost armor value and 20 regular - 1 for the Zealot armor value.) Notice that the Ultralisk does not do 40 to each because it attacks two different units and not two attacks on the same unit like the Zealot.


Whew!

Not to try and scramble your brains any more than I already have, it’s important to remember that units can also have the following modifiers: Fleshy, Mechanical, Robotic, Biological and Hover.  These modifiers can have effect another units attacks and spells.

The above mentioned Ghost has a special ability called Snipe that does 50 points of damage, but can only target fleshy and biological units.  The ability grants a bonus of +100 vs small units.

Sniping…hmmm.  Yes, that reminds me of a puzzle:

A Ghost uses his Snipe attack on the Ultralisk (Biological) and the Zealot (Fleshy).  How much damage will he do to each assuming they are without upgrades?

A group of 12 normal Zealots attack a fully upgraded Ultralisk?  If they win the encounter, how many are left?  Ultralisks have 600 hp and Zealots have 160 total hp.

Can a group of three ghosts kill a single Ultralisk before it kills them?  Assume the Ghosts have enough energy to use their Snipe attack only once.

A group of 6 Zealots and 2 Ultralisks are having a race to see who can destroy a pair of buildings first.  The buildings have 500 hp each and are next to each other.  Who wins the race?

If a group of 20 fully upgraded Ghosts attack a normal Ultralisk, how many shots would it take to kill it and how many Ghosts would be alive afterwards?  Assume that their attack rates are all the same so that every time the Ghosts fire the Ultralisk attacks.  The Ghosts have no energy for Sniping.

Bonus points if you use a Layton quotes when answering.  Also, the first person to get all of these answered correctly gets this:


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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Do the math.
« Reply #124 on: April 11, 2008, 08:28:07 AM »
Oh yeah, don't forget to vote for your favorite race.  Terran for life!
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