Author Topic: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion  (Read 6924 times)

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Offline Spak-Spang

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The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« on: January 22, 2008, 05:46:54 AM »
This Mafia game has been perhaps one of the most unique Mafia games on these boards.

Many ideas were created from this game.  

Including but not limited to:
1)New Roles and abilities
2)Mafia needing townies to win, and townies needing Mafia to win.
3)An All Seeing All powerful Killer


I believe this game did advance many concepts of the Mafia game, yet it still needs to be refined and polished.  (Like many new ideas.)  But I want to say Bravo for thatguy attempting and succeeding in something new.

Here are things I liked:  Many new roles allowed more people to have greater impact on the game.  It has really made me think about roles and what you can potentially do to empower more players.  Many of the roles had alittle more depth and finese to them.

Things I did not like:  Too many complicated rules.  Sure it was about trying to ensure the perfect balancing act of power, but it made me question more than not why characters had certain attributes.  Like, Why could Suzie talk to the T-Rex he reveal himself to her?  That made no sense.  I understood why the T-Rex couldn't kill Suzie, but why not vice versa?  I think many of the rulings made it hard to come up with abstract strategies for the game.

Also, I do not feel it a good balance to force either the townies or the Mafia to have win conditions that require people on the other team to be alive.  If the game wasn't random it would make more sense, but these win conditions made it too easy for certain alliances to be formed.  

I have other thoughts, but I don't want to complain because I did enjoy this Mafia and found the experiments to be thoughtful and engaging.  I will definitely take into conderation this mafia when developing another Mafia I will host.

Offline decoyman

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 06:16:31 AM »
You know, my only concern about this game is that it seemed a little tough for the mafia to claim victory. If thatguy had swapped one townie role into another mafia role, I think it could have easily gone the other way. Part of this may also have been because each mafia player had his own agenda - who he needed alive at the end, who he could win with, etc. They were in some ways pulling each other in different directions.

I thought, up till the end, the mafia played really well, while the townies played sloppy. The mafia had Khush AND me pinned down at various points in the game. The only way I was able to get a clear shot off was by saying I was no longer going to make hits in the thread, and to pass it around in PMs as well to everyone, even those I trusted. In reality I was still planning to put in a hit, but I needed Rosalyn to not target me that night. It worked, but of course, of my three targets (Spak, ShyGuy and Arbok), it was poor Arbok who met his maker that night.

It was kind of like having a really skilled feather-weight boxer in the ring with a mediocre heavyweight. The feather-weight's going to clean up until the heavyweight lands a few heavy (and perhaps lucky) blows.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 06:17:21 AM »
I personally disliked how suzie was so easily turned to one side or another based on precisely one or two people. I feel that the more generalized win conditions of the T-Rex which relied only on unspecified calvins being alive in the end was better. But for Suzie, one or two people could die and the game would be over for them, and then their unchecked power would go rogue and kill at whim instead of being more kept in line in terms of balance.

I'd like to see any win conditions in the future, if they return, to be more general, allowing for flexibility in who you depend on for the win. The T-Rex's conditions are again a decent example...

Actually, I think that the game would've been better if Suzie's powers and the T-Rex's were switched. The T-Rex should've had a chance to hit every day, and suzie every third day. The T-Rex would be able to actively kill evenly on all sides because they're basically impartial (wanting a calvin on any side to survive), and suzie's murderous rampage, triggered by the death of just one person, would be dampened.  
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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE:The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 06:53:02 AM »
Kairon:  The thing with the T-Rex role is what if the T-Rex did not want to be impartial.  If he could kill everyday, then he could kill all townies or all Mafia...the 3 day was balance.

Offline vudu

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 07:08:58 AM »
The T-Rex was the biggest un-balancer of the game.  The entire game was decided on the second day when I decided to side with the townies.  At that point I started feeding Stevey with the identities of mafia targets so he could kill them.  (Didn't anyone wonder how he managed to kill so many within such a short time?)  If I had gone with the mafia members I would have given him the names of townies and he would have killed them.  It was a cool role, but he had way too much power.

At the same time, it was almost impossible for him to win because of the ridiculous win-conditions.  The townies got lucky when they discovered Pale was Calvin's Dad towards the beginning of the game.  From that point on he was invincible.  Couple that with the inability to kill Susie, and it made for an impossible win-scenario for me.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 07:14:01 AM »
That's why you make me the T-Rex.

Also, after having read Vudu's post, I hate vudu. Horrible T-Rex in this game. I would have made a much better one.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 07:16:44 AM »
I want to know who got Susie after me!
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Offline decoyman

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 07:22:50 AM »
But vudu, wouldn't you have had a better shot at winning if you had left some mafia alive? Or taken me/Spiff out (because I could kill you without dying)?

So, after Pale was found out, had you given up on winning?
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Offline vudu

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 07:35:12 AM »
In retrospect maybe I should have left a mafia member or two alive.  The problem is the mafia generally kills me after a few days because even though I'm not as high-profile as some players Bill I've only missed one game, so people think I know what I'm doing.

I wasn't worried about Spiff because I only had a night action every third day, so his chances of finding me were pretty slim.  I was going to kill you on day six, but since I thought we were pretty tight I decided to keep you alive because I didn't think you would target me (and you didn't for quite some time).

I hadn't decided what to do about Pale.  I was hoping we'd just make it to the end when there weren't enough people to get him three votes.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, Pale wasn't protected on the last day because he failed to get three votes on day seven.  Which means he should have been voted out on day eight (before I died).  Oh well.  If I had thought things through better at the beginning I would have had Stevey kill Pale on day one instead of GP.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline decoyman

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 07:53:57 AM »
Actually, Pale did get his three votes... but just barely. Darkheart first, me second, then Stevey right at 00:00 voted for him.

Edit: NM, I see what you meant... but I don't think the protection worked that way.

Oh, and you were on my list of hits once before... Actually, I think you were an alternate in case one of the people on there was voted off. Day 4 maybe? Regardless, I'm glad you didn't hit me on Day 6. See everyone, it pays to be acquainted with your peers. Bake cookies, write a letter, send thank you notes, etc. Do just enough, and they'll think you're worth keeping around. This is a lesson for life.  
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 07:56:43 AM »
The idea with the T-Rex was to hopefully be a balancer.  He wasn't supposed to "side" with anyone.  Of course, the game would have been more evenly matched if this had happened.  The T-Rex wanted both sides to kill each other off, and if one was doing too well, every third day he was supposed to "punish" them.

As far as the game goes, the next time, I would give the mafia more chances to win and another ability.  However, the win-conditions were added to force players to think about themselves and their team.  If there were a lot less townies, I wouldn't give them another ability.  There were too many townies and the mafia had to hide a little too much because of the number of townies.  I'd also change the townie win conditions to force players to play a majority of the game to win.  There's no reason for Atrun Zala, Dasmos, or a few others to win this game, because as far as I can tell, they did absolutely nothing, besides popping in once or twice and making the obvious vote for Pale.

As far as stevey goes, I feel like the role was absolutely balanced:  Hobbes could come back to life and Mrs. Wormwood couldn't die at night, but could still be protected.  This was thrown off when stevey was told to hit GP by Vudu on day one.  The mafia should have hit Khush then to allow him to come back with much less power.  It's interesting, because stevey only lost because of something incredibly clever:  They switched his protection of Khush to a hit on another player.  They were able to do that because the townies considered themselves allies of Susie, rather than direct enemies, and everyone knew who Susie was because it leaked out.  Had the Susie been quieter, it seems like Khush would have lived longer, and perhaps more townies would have been targeted to help his or her victory.

One thing Kairon didn't see was that Mrs. Wormwood was designed to be the mafia killer.  Patchkid was found attempting to kill Khush day2, which didn't work, obviously.  Mrs. Wormwood wouldn't have been seen.  I should have made this more apparent to him.

A game's balance can be altered by the people playing, and the real problem was that I left the chance at a mafia victory in the hands of the two neutral players, forcing the mafia to rely on them being fair.  This didn't work this game.  The people playing those roles decided to side with the townies immediately after day 1, and killed at an unbalanced rate.  I believe it led to their loss, yes, but it also ensured mafia loss as well.  Susie couldn't kill the T-Rex because they were allowed to message each other, and Vudu was allowed to make blank suggestions about who to kill to Susie, but he wasn't allowed to say why.  The idea is that they wouldn't both want to target the same player, that since neither of them could absolutely kill Hobbes or Mrs. Wormwood, this wouldn't allow the T-Rex to hurt Susie's chances of winning very much, it would allow for both sides to be more evenly killed.  Once again, I say that the mafia should have been given a way to make themselves win, and not have to rely on even hits by the neutral players, since these players clearly will not remain neutral.

This isn't really all I've got to say, but I don't remember everything else I'd like to point out.  I will later, though.

Offline Kairon

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 08:05:46 AM »
WHAT?!??!?!?!!? Mrs. Wormwood wouldn't have been SEEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

... still Patchkid was killed by Susie/T-Rex. Not like it would've made much difference.

Thatguy, I feel ill-used! T_T
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 08:23:03 AM »
T-Rex broke the game.

Offline vudu

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 08:30:55 AM »
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline that Baby guy

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 09:06:51 AM »
Things I did like:  The witness role.  I hate the role of the investigator.  He or she pulls names out of a hat and gets lucky when he or she finds someone worth noting.  The Witness truly took the place of the investigator.  Stupendous Man saw several things when he watched Khush on day one.  It makes roled players think twice about who they choose to use their ability on.  This role could be applied to either side of the game, too, to put some extra pressure on the townies.

Susie without the T-Rex.  I still think this role seems perfect, but the inclusion of the T-Rex messed it up.  His goal is to find his two players, one on each side, and keep them alive.  When he finds the first one, barring some really clever foolery, he could just keep that one alive, too.  I think a role like this has potential in other games.  Because of how difficult it is to kill the two players, they would almost have to be victims of an attack specifically for them.  However, I do think that perhaps the Susie role didn't need to be alive to win.

Calvin's Dad.  Normally, protection has limits on uses, but I hate those.  If someone has an ability, he or she should be able to use that ability regularly, and not have to pick and choose when.  What would be different?  I'd lower the vote total necessary to one or two, in order to make him more difficult to spot.

Adverse win conditions.  The mafia hated them, but they barely affected the townies.  I'd weaken the differences between the mafia and strengthen differences with the townies, and I think it would make for a wild game.  One idea, as weird as it sounds, is to give the townie roles the standard townie win condition: Beat the mafia, but to give all townies without roles some wild win conditions.  One would place the townie as a mafia wannabe, where he wins if the mafia wins.  One would require that the player dies from the vote in order to win.  Another would require a night death in order to win.  One could say that the player needed two or three night actions to target him in order to win.  One could tell the townie that he must start a bandwagon with at least five votes one day in order to win.  The first few days would be very confusing for the townies, while the mafia would be pretty organized.  I think this could make for a fun game.

And if Khush and I don't use it, I've got an entirely different way to play the game that I won't talk about now.  I have no idea how it would go over, and I haven't planned it out, but it would be an experience completely unlike any other previous mafia game.

Oh yeah, back to the game:  I liked the Spiff role.  When working at full capacity, he could target whoever Calvin's Dad protected, Hobbes, and the player he wanted to kill, and either Hobbes or the player wanted killed would die.  If hit, Hobbes could revive, and no damage would be done.  It would allow him to target the specific player he wanted to kill with no chance of mis-fire.  It would also take a lot of networking to do that, but it is a pretty cool possibility, none-the-less.

I like Rosalyn.  Her role was remarkable.  It was the reason why townies wanted to shut up about what they could do.  Announce you're Hobbes?  Well, Rosalyn could ruin your alliance check.  Rumors of being the killer?  Well, you may hit the wrong target tonight.  I feel bad, because I thought Spak did this job perfectly, but still had no chance to win.  Khush couldn't trust his investigations, Decoyman looked like an idiot.  Stevey was the downfall of his own self.  Don't forget, they could have shifted Pale's protection any time he didn't protect himself, and Pale didn't need to be alive to win, so there were a few times Pale didn't protect himself.  I'm just saying that this role was pretty awesome, and it was used just as well as I could have hoped.

Mrs. Wormwood is pretty nifty.  She has to die by townies figuring out who she is.  The roled players can't check her out.  No, she has to be fished out the old-fashioned way.  She's a pretty powerful mafia role, in that way, since there's no night mistake to be made.  The difficulty here is keep Wormwood a secret when she is a target.  What do you say if she's been targeted specifically by an investigator?  Townie or no info was returned?  The key here was that Rosalyn was necessary.  Since Rosalyn could just block an ability, it would seem like the player targeting the other player got blocked, rather than that he or she had found Mrs. Wormwood, which is something I had difficulty wrapping my head around at first, though it is what I went with in the end.

If you host a game of mafia, create one that you would like to play in.  Make it something you think would be fun for you, and then each game should have something, maybe just a little something unique in it.

Offline vudu

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2008, 09:14:02 AM »
So basically you liked every role but the T-Rex?  
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline that Baby guy

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2008, 09:30:07 AM »
Nah, the Calvin role was pretty poor, Hobbes ability was unnecessary, Mr. Lockjaw was about as useless as could be in anyone's hands, and there was nothing special about Good Calvin, either.  I like the T-Rex role better than any of those I just listed.  The T-Rex didn't work because if he didn't run the precise route I expected, the game would break.  Players need to have freedom to play how they want, regardless of role, and the T-Rex doesn't allow both that and balance to exist at the same time.  If I had allowed the role freedom when I planned it out, maybe things would be different, but I didn't, and that's my mistake.  You chose a path I didn't expect, and by doing so, the game broke a little.  The fault was mine for not allowing you the option of traveling that path without breaking the game, and that's the problem I have with the role.

You shouldn't be expected to play the way I want you to play, and you didn't play how I expected.  But because I expected you to play in only one way, any other path would be broken.

Offline decoyman

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RE:The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 09:33:39 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: thatguy
Adverse win conditions. The mafia hated them, but they barely affected the townies. I'd weaken the differences between the mafia and strengthen differences with the townies, and I think it would make for a wild game. One idea, as weird as it sounds, is to give the townie roles the standard townie win condition: Beat the mafia, but to give all townies without roles some wild win conditions. One would place the townie as a mafia wannabe, where he wins if the mafia wins. One would require that the player dies from the vote in order to win. Another would require a night death in order to win. One could say that the player needed two or three night actions to target him in order to win. One could tell the townie that he must start a bandwagon with at least five votes one day in order to win. The first few days would be very confusing for the townies, while the mafia would be pretty organized. I think this could make for a fun game.


Actually, I've hoped to host a mafia game some day, and it would involve something very similar to this idea for townies. Not only would it give townies (who often feel a little bummed that they're an "ordinary, powerless, townie") something extra to work towards, and a good reason to play and be active every day. I think what made me think of it was this board game, Ticket to Ride, where everyone has secret goals that they have to try to meet throughout the game. I even have a theme already that I'm pretty sure most people would like (though it'd be tough to follow such an awesome theme as Calvin & Hobbes, for sure). It's just a matter of finding the time to do it. Maybe in a few months...

Another way to get action out of townies (without requiring the daily vote) might be using a sort of point system, where you get points everyday you vote, or for roleplaying, or for role-specific actions... that way, even if you lived to the end, but hadn't done anything, you couldn't win. And if you died early, but were very active, you may still have a chance to claim part of the win.

I like the idea of an MVP and wildcard at the end... I also think it'd be cool if there was a "best story-teller/poster" award at the end, or various other awards. Kind of like achievements. Best-case scenario, everyone who played would be awarded at least an honorary and/or humorous title at the end. Like, for me this game, it might've been, "Friend of the Mafia" because I took out so many townies, for example.

This game is really fun, and really sucks me in... I'd like to see what it's like on the other side of the PM box.  
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2008, 09:36:50 AM »
The unique goals for each player is a good idea. If I ever do my mafia game, I plan to have that, but with a point system tied to your goals.

Offline Kairon

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2008, 09:39:21 AM »
Let me just say that I, for one, would relish the role of ordinary powerless townie. I've been mafia godfather twice now out of the 3 mafia games I've played. Whoever makes the next mafia game, MAKE ME A TOWNIE!!!

Also, has anyone ever though of an RPG Mafia? Like, every starts out with a max of 5 HP, so you can whittle someone down incrementally with votes since each vote would knock out an hp point? Of course, every day everyone would recover one hp, and some special abilities would add hp or players might discover HP regenerative items...
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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For never was a story of more woe
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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE:The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2008, 09:46:43 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: vudu
The T-Rex was the biggest un-balancer of the game.  The entire game was decided on the second day when I decided to side with the townies.  At that point I started feeding Stevey with the identities of mafia targets so he could kill them.  (Didn't anyone wonder how he managed to kill so many within such a short time?)  If I had gone with the mafia members I would have given him the names of townies and he would have killed them.  It was a cool role, but he had way too much power.



At the same time, it was almost impossible for him to win because of the ridiculous win-conditions.  The townies got lucky when they discovered Pale was Calvin's Dad towards the beginning of the game.  From that point on he was invincible.  Couple that with the inability to kill Susie, and it made for an impossible win-scenario for me.


Actually, you broke the rules in the game...because I was worried about that.  You should not have been able to tell anyone any names of any players...even Suzie.  I don't understand why you were even given the ability to talk to Suzie with that role.  It was a bit unfair.

I knew exactly what you were doing, which was why I wanted to get rid of both you and Stevey at the same time...I just had no clue who the T-Rex was, but also thatguy stated it would not have worked anyway...which also seemed like a wierd balance decision.

Offline Kairon

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2008, 09:50:46 AM »
If I was T-Rex I'd be fair.

/beats a dead horse
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2008, 09:55:46 AM »
thatguy:  I am definitely using many of your suggestions in the next mafia game.  As you said, there were many roles that worked well...and I like more roles than not.

Offline Plugabugz

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RE: The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2008, 11:04:39 AM »
I suppose this was the worst game to be thrown into, but i did enjoy it. The complications made it weird overall for me to work out who was to trust, and as I only got one PM (from decoy) i opted to trust no one instead.

I may try and develop one based around buttered camels and kairon.

Offline Sessha

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RE:The Calvin and Hobbes Mafia Discussion
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2008, 12:02:08 PM »
This was the strangest mafia I've been involved in, The game seemed to taper off towards the end.  I had to re-read the rules a few times to catch up on what's going in.  But it was fun.  I don't know enough to host a mafia game but I would be willing to help someone with their ideas.  
Laugh and the world laughs with you.  Weep and you weep alone.