Topic: So I am losing touch with my friends, wanna give me your words?

[DAaaMan64]

Alright I am ready to lose what dignity one can have on the internet...

First of all, I should describe for you what kinda person I think I am.  I consider myself fairly considerate of other people, I find myself listening to my friends and not necessarily giving them advice but simply helping them regardless of whether they ask or not.  Sometimes I am confident I over volunteer, I don't mind too much. I think it can make me look desperate or something I don't know.

The other side of this, is that I am pretty dammed opinionated. I like to talk about politics, religion, music, whatever I may be lucky enough to have discuss-able knowledge of.  That may not really seem like a problem, I am rather vocal if the topic is brought up though.  Now here is my first possible problem(that I can see), I assumed that in life we are to learn not to judge someone based off of their words and their opinions but rather their actions.  Now to the story:

I have a fair amount of friends, they all seem semi-close.  I entered pretty late into the group.  Anyway, we all make fun of each other a lot, seemingly regardless of the sensitivity of the issue.  I was taken back by this tendency when I first joined the group.  Ultimately I practice it a little now but not as much as everyone else.  I don't think that is because it isn't funny, it is.  It isn't as funny as other humor styles I enjoy more.  So my tendency to kinda not have as much fun making fun of everyone seems to have been a contributor to my slow isolation.  Another contributor is that what I enjoy are not what many others enjoy, I enjoy nintendo products, programming, and music. Now my music I am pretty opinionated about, my favorite is Pink Floyd, I don't listen to much else outside of that genre.  What I am basically saying is that I don't have a whole lot in common with my friends, which sucks cause I like them.  But my lack of having things in common and my opinionated-ness seems to be an isolator.  I am okay with that isolator though. haha

Now, I assumed that we made fun of each other under the understanding that we are all friends and respect each other. Why should I let someone make fun of me who doesn't respect and isn't friend, right?  My main problem stems from that. one of the guys that hangs out with us, we can call him Bill, is one of the major contributors to pointing out what he thinks people's faults are and drags you around by them.  Again that is fine, but it slowly got rather excessive with me, I believe this to have honestly extended from our very opposing views on politics and believe it or not, SNES versus Genesis.

Here is where it gets worse, we were debating SNES and Genesis. Now I love me some Genesis, but the influence that SNES had on the industry is undeniable.  I really thought that we were just discussing it.  Anyway as the debate/discussion was nearing a close, he made some comment, I don't really know what it was.  I know in the nature of the words that began the sentence, it was directed at me.  I said to him "what did you say".  He said he "wasn't going to repeat it because it was over my head and I wouldn't understand", then he continues to role his eyes at me and looks away! Thats a kicker for me, I can't recall every saying anything that rude to some in my entire adult life(but I am only 21 :p).  Anyway, to me, when someone is willing to speak to me like that, that is immediately tells me he doesn't respect me. Now remember that the making fun of was getting more excessive?  It was getting real bad now, he was even saying that I was in love with one of our other friends girl friends!  He wouldn't drop it, he was always saying it.  Anyway one night, he wouldn't shut the hell up, I started getting real pissed off at him and was yelling and getting pretty mad in front of everybody.  I exclaimed that this isn't appropriate that he make fun of me under these circumstances, all that stuff.  He didn't stop, I really wanted to punch him, but I wasn't sure how all my other friends were gonna react, plus that would have really isolated me as he is well liked in the group.

Now as a result of that, the isolation has hit an all time high, those friends I thought were my friends are lying about hanging out so that I don't show up, things like that.  I have tried talking to several of them, I just get stuff like "you need to just drop it and let Bill make fun of you, if you didn't react like that, he wouldn't do it." etc.  But how can I do that? Where is my self-respect if I allow that to occur? I just can't allow that.  Now that my "friends" are lying to me, how can I considered myself respected by them?! How does that make them my friends?

Bill tells me I am arrogant and judgmental.  I know I am opinionated, but does that transfer to arrogance and a judgmental tendency? It may appear as such, but simply I assume that those are my words and should not be affecting someone enough to not respect me and what I do for them.  I have fixed Bill's computer for free, picked him up from the bar ect.  All that stuff before, but my words are to influential they seem to make him believe that I am not very smart.  Again actions versus words.

I am considering finding new friends, but I need your help.  Am I holding my self-respect too high?  I understand that is possible that I don't know the whole story, is there an answer you can give that doesn't require you to know the whole story? I could never know if I am wrong, or simply don't understand.  

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you,  

[Kairon]

This is a frighteningly complex problem... hmm...

Well, until I can think on it some more, here's a thought (against my better judgement):

It's not a bad thing to be opinionated, but it doesn't have to be an isolating thing. It can be a lovable quirk you have, rather than something that makes you not like the rest. I think that you can vehemently express your opinions, but emphasize the non-personal aspect of it by always counterbalancing with self-deprecating humor, admissions of other people's viewpoints, decisions NOT to escalate discussions that aren't really going anywhere, and the like. You're expressing opinions to friends, not trying to win debates. You should be smiling and joking while saying things, you should be poking fun at yourselves and others while debating SNES and Genesis or euthanasia or whatever, not jumping down each other's throats.

I know a guy who's sort of a... he's everything a San Francisco liberal like me hates. He's a hardcore republican, he's sort of a homophobe, he hates hilary clinton, he's sort of a mysoginist, and to top it all he DOES have some grating tendencies. But I still see him often and we get along and joke and we even share an appreciation for cedrtain kinds of movies. We emphasize our common love of Ray Harryhausen 50'2 60'2 and 70's stop motion movies, and whenever he makes an (un-called-for) remark about something, I just express my disgust in an exasperated way, he laughs, and we basically drop it.

Uh.... I have NO idea where this is going. Playing amatuer psychologist is usually a really dangerous thing, so if none of my ramblings apply to you, then I'm sorry... umm... sorry?

[DAaaMan64]

Well thanks for responding Kairon. I figured you'd be amongst the first.

First of all, It is a frighteningly complicated issue because I have thought of it that way. That is, I have been told I over complicate things. However considering this is a matter of self-respect I wouldn't call that a over complication to consider my self-respect.

I believed us to have handled those debates or discussions well and that particular genesis and snes one I thought was going no worse then average.  The jokes in between that you speak of were occurring.

It's funny you say you are a San Fran liberal. I am a Ron Paul conservative :p. Not a neo or religious conservative, just conservative.

Anyway, thanks Kairon. Maybe you have more advice?

[Kairon]

Hey look everybody! I'm psycho-analyzing somebody over the internet via information from a third-party! This is really smart isn't it?

Hmmm, so you thought everything was going normal? Were the jokes defusing the situation or were they not being taken lightly by the key players in this incident?

Then maybe this has actually been brewing up for some time and you've been rubbing the guy the wrong way for a long while and he hasn't wanted to rock the boat, bottling all that friction inside him till it explodes now?

Either way, I don't think we should look at this as a case of self-respect. You already respect yourself, and nothing anyone else does can change that unless you first lose respect for yourself without their involvement. Self-respect isn't based on winning arguments with other people because winning arguments doesn't prove truth, and more often than not actually obscures truth. You ALREADY know the truth about yourself, and everything else is just gravy. I don't think you have anything to prove. Just opinions to express casually to people you consider and want to be friends with.

*shrug* Maybe other people will still have problems with you, and feel the need to challenge or confront you. Confrontation is rarely desirable in a friend-relationship, so it's unfortunate that those things happen because they only have a couple of different outcomes, from what I see: the two of you argue and are no longer friends, the two of you argue and reach a compromise to ensure that you can remain friends (compromise is often difficult to negotiate (gently persuade) because you have to subtly weigh emotions, spoken desires, and unspoken desires, and it can be real hard to swallow), or you sidestep the situation, maybe defusing it forever, maybe putting it off for another day?

[Nick DiMola]

I'm not going to claim myself some sort of expert on this matter, but from reading your story, I have a pretty strong grip on what kind of person this guy is and exactly how he thinks. I had a friend very much like this guy and he put me in pretty much the same position. He had a mouth that was a little too big for him and was really the opinionated overly judgmental jerk who accused everyone else of being the same when they didn't want to tolerate his sh!t. My suggestion, don't talk to him and DON'T fuel his fire by arguing back with him or getting visibly upset over anything. This guy that I know fed off of that negative energy and only used it to ridicule further. Let your other friends know how you feel and simply tell them you won't be around if Bill is there. Personally, I'm the confrontational type, and if somebody pisses me off enough they WILL get my fist in their face. If you don't want that confrontation or the temptation of violence, stay away. Eventually Bill will find a new target and lay off of you. I know you say this guy is your friend, but if he was and you asked him to give it a rest and he doesn't then he isn't a friend. Friends should be understanding and shouldn't give you too much sh!t if they know it's really getting to you. Me and my friends make fun of one another, but we keep it to petty stuff and it is ALWAYS just joking around.

Like I said, I'm no professional on these situations, but the best solution seems to be avoiding this type of person. They feed on negative energy and love the confrontation, don't get caught up in it any further, it really can only lead to greater issues. It's also worth noting that you shouldn't ditch your other friends over this. Let them know what the deal is and that you won't be hanging around them if this Bill guy is around. Or you can go for the most radical of moves, give him a taste of your fist and see what happens... (Just kidding, don't do this it never fixes anything)

[Ceric]

People are weird.  I'm just going to put that out there.  I'm not really going to give you any advise because I have had similar circumstances but haven't every triumphed in them.

Just suffice it to say that if I have learned anything that what is socially acceptable for one person is not for other.  Even things that are less Taboo then what commonly gets talked about in a group can make you an outcast.  Its a mine Field out there and because of growing disparity between people it will only become worse.  To sum Social Conduct is being torn appart.

[Kairon]

I think I'll have to agree with a lot of what Mr. Jack says. Friends should act like friends, give you space, make allowances too. It's a two-way street after all.

My thing is that I personally have really high tolerance levels for people. I've befriended people who... had some less than desirable levels of social skills. They weren't jerks or mean or anything like that, it's just that these were the people who other people considered the most annoying people in the class, who obsessed over weird things, or these were the people who others would provoke just to see them lose their temper, these were the people who if they called you, you couldn't get them to stop talking, and it would be an hour-long one-sided conversation... so uh... with that in mind, maybe I have a skewed perspective on friendship, because those people turned out to be great friends...

[DAaaMan64]

Quote
Either way, I don't think we should look at this as a case of self-respect. You already respect yourself, and nothing anyone else does can change that unless you first lose respect for yourself without their involvement. Self-respect isn't based on winning arguments with other people because winning arguments doesn't prove truth, and more often than not actually obscures truth. You ALREADY know the truth about yourself, and everything else is just gravy. I don't think you have anything to prove. Just opinions to express casually to people you consider and want to be friends with.

Thanks for responding again Kairon. It isn't a matter of self-respect in a sense of arguing, I don't care if I "win" debates or discussions.  The self-respect issue would continuing to allow him to make fun of me just to hang out with my friends.  Am I really respecting myself and producing self esteem by allowing him to bark on to my friends about how dumb I am?

Anyway, in terms of brewing up, that may be possible.  I have never met a person who analyzes the thought processes of others like he does.  But I debate with one of our other friends all the time too, we get a long pretty well.

Quote
I'm not going to claim myself some sort of expert on this matter, but from reading your story, I have a pretty strong grip on what kind of person this guy is and exactly how he thinks. I had a friend very much like this guy and he put me in pretty much the same position. He had a mouth that was a little too big for him and was really the opinionated overly judgmental jerk who accused everyone else of being the same when they didn't want to tolerate his sh!t. My suggestion, don't talk to him and DON'T fuel his fire by arguing back with him or getting visibly upset over anything. This guy that I know fed off of that negative energy and only used it to ridicule further. Let your other friends know how you feel and simply tell them you won't be around if Bill is there. Personally, I'm the confrontational type, and if somebody pisses me off enough they WILL get my fist in their face. If you don't want that confrontation or the temptation of violence, stay away. Eventually Bill will find a new target and lay off of you. I know you say this guy is your friend, but if he was and you asked him to give it a rest and he doesn't then he isn't a friend. Friends should be understanding and shouldn't give you too much sh!t if they know it's really getting to you. Me and my friends make fun of one another, but we keep it to petty stuff and it is ALWAYS just joking around.

This is exactly how I was feeling about the issue.  Thanks for responding Mr. Jack.

Here is the problem that boils once I get to that point, I have tried talking to my friends.  My friends in their avoiding tone seem to agree with Bill and just tell me to deal with it because they all have to on some level. All less then me though. I think that stems from me doing it less though.  But again, I am not entirely sure thats how they feel as they are avoiding the conversation after all.  Now that they are prone to lying to me, I don't know how to find out what I am wrong about, or not understanding, if anything!

But I suppose at that point, it is impossible for this forum to know that with only my perspective on the table.

Thanks guys, anything else is helpful.

[Nick DiMola]

Well with that in mind, it doesn't seem like these guys are the greatest of friends. I know it's easy for me to say to ditch them, but it doesn't seem like they respect you enough if they don't care how much this is annoying you. I would take a look around the social scene and see who else is around. Maybe isolating yourself further from these guys is in your best interest.

You could also try and call Bill out on all of this as a final hurrah and see what his deal is. If you really bring it out in the open in front of everyone maybe it'll get you somewhere. If not, drop out of the scene for a while and show back up in a few weeks and hopefully Bill moved onto his next victim...

[Ian Sane]

Any time I have a rocky relationship with someone (friendship or romantic) I make an effort to make sure that if things fall apart it's not my fault.  Part of it is so that I don't regret what I could have or should have done.  Part of it is because I want it to work and thus should do what I can to help that.  So I'm patient with the other person and I make compromises and do whatever I can.  Sometimes that doesn't help.  The other person is just a jerk and you can't do anything about that.

So in this situation I would try to not be so opinionated and let Bill make fun of me a bit and see how it goes.  What do you have to lose?  Right now your friends are avoiding you and if you do nothing odds are you're going to lose them anyway.  So even if Bill still pisses you off and it still doesn't work so what?  You made an effort and didn't lose anything you wouldn't have lost anyway even if you didn't.

I tried this in elementary school.  It was a small school and all the boys hung together.  I thought this one guy who was sort of the leader of the group was an assh0le.  He treated me like crap and he treated other people like crap and I didn't take it and that isolated me and I didn't really have any friends in school for a little while.  So I decided to "play ball" and tolerate this guy and they let me into the group.  But the problem was still there and the guy was still a dick and I realized that I really didn't enjoy being in this group of friends and wasn't happy so I left and eventually found new friends.  One of those friends I'm still friends with 13 years later.  Things weren't working, I did my best to make things work, and it didn't help but I tried and know for sure it wasn't going to work and I have no regrets now and things worked out fine.

So if your friends say that you should just let Bill make fun of you why not try that for a little while and see what happens?  The worst that could happen is that your friendship could fall apart which is probably going to happen anyway if you do nothing.

Still though my friends and I only jokingly make fun of each other and know where the line is and don't cross it.  And if we accidentally do we immediately apologize.

[18 Days]

The only true friends are dogs. I suggest you start collecting them.

[DAaaMan64]

^-- lol dogs are really awesome.  

Well I am gonna see where I am in a week or so.  If I am as discouraged and disgusted with it as I am now, I am gonna start migrating away from these people.

[Shift Key]

You need to realize that not every debate has to end with someone winning and someone losing.

And chill out, because sometimes people don't like having opinions forced down their throats. Whether those opinions are correct or not is irrelevant.

[DAaaMan64]

Shift Key, did you read this whole thing?  Not trying to be mean.  But I don't say much except to the two who like to debate this stuff. I let my opinions be heard, maybe more so then some of the others do.  But only once unless someone brings it up with me again.  No ones ever going to have the same music tastes as I do(mine are too specific) and they have always liked other systems more then Nintendo stuff. Only one other person even knows politics and most of us agree on religion. So then at worst I am just "louder" then everyone else.  But I don't mention a damn thing unless they fall into my territory negatively. Basically I think I am pretty lax about it unless someone mentions it... err... I don't know. This sucks.

[Sessha]

I think you need to look at yourself from someone else's perspective.  Not saying you are arrogant etc but it's best to look at yourself without bias.  I can understand you being opinionated and maybe it's not that your arrogant it's that Bill isn't used to someone firing back.  Usually someone's first defense is degrading someone.  I think it would be best if you could find a group of friends where you can be yourself.  It's no fun putting on a facade for other people and if they can't accept you for how you are I don't know if they are worth your time.  Everyone has flaws and that's something we kind of have to embrace and deal with.  It sounds like you enjoy having discussions not really arguements although over some subjects it's inevitable that they will get heated.  

I used to hang out with a group very similar to yours and I got into the bad habit of acting like them.  That wasn't something I enjoyed I'm vocal about my opinions as well but bringing up anything not related to the topic is childish.  I have a lot of pride so apologizing isn't something I am really fond of not that I need to very often.  Around my friends I am kind of soft spoken.  I think you need to think back and need to see if there is anything you think that you should apologize for?  If your friends expect you to stay silent and take Bill's Abuse and it bothers you that's their problem.  I won't get into details but the group I hung out with made it a point to poke fun at my race.  Long story short someone got punched and I stopped talking with them.  But you shouldn't have to take abuse to hang out with your friends.  

DaaaMan I wouldn't worry about losing any dignity.  If you have a serious topic you wish to discuss and leave it out of the funhouse the people here are usually pretty helpful.  

[DAaaMan64]

I am attempting my best unbiased perspective.  As I see myself, I see my self speaking with a certain arrogance on occasion, that occasion is when someone wants to know about something I know about. Which do to the nature of what we have in common as friends is not much. I do relax and take a more open minded approach(softer non-arrogant tone) when the others in the discussion do as well.  But I suppose I may have my days.

Some to know is, that I when I say I am "vocal", I am vocal about a lot of stuff that Bill sees no reason to be vocal about.  When I say something that seems like something Bill thinks I didn't need to say anything about, it is never something that contains an opinion, it may just be an observation.  For example, one that he used to jump me about was when we all played dodge ball, we would all get there at separate times, well I would watch what car was coming and try to see who it was. It was always dark so I did it off of the shape of their headlights.  Bill for whatever reason thinks I don't need to do this, and seems to get angered with me for doing it.  To me, what sense does that make as it doesn't impose on him at all...

*Oh here is a good one.  This could be a possibility.  Sometimes when the group is a little segregated, naturally based off of the subjects they are talking about.  I will come in and listen to see what they are talking about, if I don't understand after the first few sentences i'll ask what they are talking about, couple of them will jump me and say that I don't need to always know what is going on...  I feel that is an odd thing for a friend to say to me.  But am I being unreasonable?  If so, in what way?

Thank you ))

[Shift Key]

Quote
Originally posted by: DAaaMan64
Shift Key, did you read this whole thing?

I couldn't because it was a mess. As you said:

Quote
First of all, It is a frighteningly complicated issue because I have thought of it that way.

But this all started from a debate so if you think I'm wrong then that's your prerogative.

[Ian Sane]

"Bill for whatever reason thinks I don't need to do this, and seems to get angered with me for doing it."

Okay, Bill's an assh0le.  F*ck Bill.

"I will come in and listen to see what they are talking about, if I don't understand after the first few sentences i'll ask what they are talking about, couple of them will jump me and say that I don't need to always know what is going on... I feel that is an odd thing for a friend to say to me."

Sounds like the Big Lebowski.  "Shut the f*ck up, Donny!"  "Donny, you're out of your element!"

I don't think any of those examples are unreasonable.  Sounds very similar to the group I was hanging out with in elementary school that I thankfully abandoned.

[Sessha]

Bill sounds like a complete loon.

Don't look at car headlights?? WTF  

It sounds like he's a control freak that likes everyone to act in his accordance
and your Encroaching on his decrees.  It's difficult because you will lose a lot of friends but they don't sound very nice to begin with.  

[Ian Sane]

Oh and I'll also mention that determining who has arrived by the shape of their headlights is super cool.  My brother would become best friends with you solely because of that.

[ThePerm]

let me preface. Your all fucking nerds! I'v hear occasions where some of these board members have talked and it makes me cringe. Anyhow, sometimes i make myself cringe.

a couple years ago i had three best friends Alex, Nick, Alex 2. Then I got a girlfriend, eventually we all came to a head. Alex 1 and I now don't talk. I see Nick, but only when he's hanging out with Alex 2. Alex 2 and I are still cool.

Anyways, after the last couple years I kinda miss the group being together, I even have weird dreams like this i had the other day" Alex 1 and Nick and I go to the theater, I pay, but they leave at the beginning of the movie just to spite me. Then I have a toy sword fight with Alex 1, and win forcing him to be my friend again"

on the other hand, the group of friends im in now is different. It seems even more tight nit because we are connected throgh a larger group of friend groups.

[KnowsNothing]

This social life **** is mighty complicated.  No wonder I never tried any of it.

[ThePerm]

i was going to say the aussies on this forums are about the only ones thats don't sound like nerds..that is at least to American ears

[GoldenPhoenix]

We need a new feature "NWR Personal Help Thread, where Nintendo fans can counsel each other"

[DAaaMan64]

Sounds good GP, now that they charge for the nintendo help line I don't know where to turn.