Topic: Miyamoto tells me to wait five years...

[NWR_insanolord]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I've been hearing "it's too soon; devs need more time" stuff for almost a whole year now.  I can't think of any other videogame system in history to have such a high learning curve for development.  The Gamecube was obviously not nearly as successful as the Wii has been but at this point the devs that were actually making games for it had the kinks out.  Same with every other Nintendo console.  This excuse had some weight back in March but it isn't really making much sense anymore.

Same with the "no one thought the Wii would be this successful" excuse used to defend weak third party support.  It has never taken this long for third parties to catch up with the market leader.

There's some sort of problem with the Wii that we can't quite put our finger on and if the Wii ever loses the top spot I think that problem will be the key factor.  This console is taking way too long to really get going.

Again you're comparing this to what we've seen historically too much. This is an entirely new way of doing things and you can't make direct comparisons to other consoles.

The GameCube was around the same technological level as its two competitors and was programmed for in roughly the same way. That's why it got support even when it wasn't popular.

Why would a difference of a few months make a difference in the validity of a reason why we haven't gotten many good third party games when games (good ones, at least) take a lot longer than that to develop? Not to mention that there are a number of third party games between now and the end of the year that look like they'll be good.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Maybe the reason why 3rd parties are taking so long is because they invested so much in systems like 360 and PS3 it is hard to change? The industry is VASTLY different today because budgets are huge, and games take much longer to create, so it is much harder to get developers to commit. Heck there are few situations like the Wii, during the NES era there was basically Nintendo or nothing, SNES era it was mostly Nintendo though Sega gave them a run for their money, PSone era took awhile to get going with Sony finally dominating for two generations, now we have the Wii leading which flipped the industry on its head. Really the only somewhat legit comparison is Wii to PSone but even that is lacking because PSone was a "next generation" with Sega being its only real competition.

[NWR_insanolord]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Maybe the reason why 3rd parties are taking so long is because they invested so much in systems like 360 and PS3 it is hard to change? The industry is VASTLY different today because budgets are huge, and games take much longer to create, so it is much harder to get developers to commit. Heck there are few situations like the Wii, during the NES era there was basically Nintendo or nothing, SNES era it was mostly Nintendo though Sega gave them a run for their money, PSone era took awhile to get going with Sony finally dominating for two generations, now we have the Wii leading which flipped the industry on its head. Really the only somewhat legit comparison is Wii to PSone but even that is lacking because PSone was a "next generation" with Sega being its only real competition.

That's also likely a part of it. No one in their right mind would have predicted the situation we're in now.

[Ian Sane]

"Why would a difference of a few months make a difference in the validity of a reason why we haven't gotten many good third party games when games (good ones, at least) take a lot longer than that to develop?"

It starts of as a few months and then gets bigger and bigger.  The cliche defenses against most Wii criticisms often involve time being a factor.  Thus as time goes by excuses about "giving it time" and such make less and less sense because more time has gone by.  Nintendo has started releasing the really big games, the console has been number one for a while now, and all the industry shows and such are over.  Yet the Wii doesn't feel "established" yet.  Do I have to wait another year?  Wait until next year's trade shows?

"Again you're comparing this to what we've seen historically too much. This is an entirely new way of doing things and you can't make direct comparisons to other consoles."

Sure I can.  I'm a consumer and I expect so much out of videogame console.  If the Wii can't get up to speed in a year when other consoles I have bought were easily able to do so why should I put up with it?  There can be legitimate reasons for this but if I'm just some guy who doesn't follow gaming the way we do on this site I don't know of those reasons.  All I see is a console that is taking a ridiculously long amount of time to get the kinks out.

At this point there should be solid support from third parties (or at least comparible to the market share the console has) and I should expect games to be polished and have smooth controls.  You can lay out all the reasons why that's not the case yet but to me those are all just excuses.  I tolerated excuses on the Cube and got burned so the hell with "wait and see".

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
At this point there should be solid support from third parties (or at least comparible to the market share the console has) and I should expect games to be polished and have smooth controls.  You can lay out all the reasons why that's not the case yet but to me those are all just excuses.  I tolerated excuses on the Cube and got burned so the hell with "wait and see".

You're like the guy standing there with a tidal wave behind him saying, "There's no water! It's a drought, I tell you!"

Examine this list of coming Wii games

And if you say, "Yeah, but there's nothing good on that list" then I'm going to remind you that 99.9% of the games on the PS2, the previous market leader, were pure ass and this was never truer than it was just a year into the console's life.

The game that "sold" the PS2 didn't even really exist until GTA3 game out. Before then, there wasn't a compelling reason to own the console.

I wouldn't mind this type of incessant bitching about the Wii except for the fact that it's always being compared to some type of mystical console which only exists in the mind of the complainers.

I have both a Wii and a 360 in my home: the only decent things out for 360 in the past few months were Orange Box and Halo 3, and considering OB is infinitely better than Halo 3, it's an overlap which will only necessitate the purchase of one of the games (I don't even consider the PS3 a contender in this).

The Wii has Zak and Wiki, Manhunt 2, Batallion Wars 2 and soon, Mario Galaxy.

I don't know what magical console is beating releases like this right now but I'd love to know where I can find one.  

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Not everyone is going to adapt to new ideas.  Hell some very talented developers had difficulty switching to 3D.  But there's a balance between people not getting a new idea and a new idea being too difficult for people to get.  If Nintendo ends up the only developer who can consistently design games for the Wii that don't play like sh!t then they didn't introduce a new standard.

Nintendo acknowledges this. The Wii is all for nothing if they can't get developers and the industry as a whole changed over to a different way of thinking about games, what they are, how they're controlled, and who they can sell them too. Iwata himself has said that if all they ever really accomplish doing is outselling the gamecube with no other changes, they've failed!

After all, Nintendo is advising third parties on how controls can be implemented, how the interfaces can work, possibilities for use... Nintendo knows what's at stake here too Ian, and behind all this business success and rhetoric they're actively trying to change the environment of the game industry in exactly the direction the Wii promises.

[Chozo Ghost]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I've been hearing "it's too soon; devs need more time" stuff for almost a whole year now.  I can't think of any other videogame system in history to have such a high learning curve for development.  The Gamecube was obviously not nearly as successful as the Wii has been but at this point the devs that were actually making games for it had the kinks out.  Same with every other Nintendo console.  This excuse had some weight back in March but it isn't really making much sense anymore.

Same with the "no one thought the Wii would be this successful" excuse used to defend weak third party support.  It has never taken this long for third parties to catch up with the market leader.

There's some sort of problem with the Wii that we can't quite put our finger on and if the Wii ever loses the top spot I think that problem will be the key factor.  This console is taking way too long to really get going.

Umm, Ian... it took well over a year for the DS to really take off in a significant way. The Wii hasn't even been out for a year yet.

Also, it takes more than a year (usually) to make a decent game. How long was Zelda TP in production? It was announced long before the Wii was, if I'm not mistaken. So even though third parties HAVE jumped on the Wii bandwagon, you can't expect high quality games to come out right away. You can be sure they are in the pipeline, but good god man, have some patience.

We're only seeing minigames and ports right now because those are what can be thrown out with minimal effort. Creating stuff from scratch can take years.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I've been hearing "it's too soon; devs need more time" stuff for almost a whole year now.  I can't think of any other videogame system in history to have such a high learning curve for development.  The Gamecube was obviously not nearly as successful as the Wii has been but at this point the devs that were actually making games for it had the kinks out.  Same with every other Nintendo console.  This excuse had some weight back in March but it isn't really making much sense anymore.

Same with the "no one thought the Wii would be this successful" excuse used to defend weak third party support.  It has never taken this long for third parties to catch up with the market leader.

There's some sort of problem with the Wii that we can't quite put our finger on and if the Wii ever loses the top spot I think that problem will be the key factor.  This console is taking way too long to really get going.

Umm, Ian... it took well over a year for the DS to really take off in a significant way. The Wii hasn't even been out for a year yet.

Also, it takes more than a year (usually) to make a decent game. How long was Zelda TP in production? It was announced long before the Wii was, if I'm not mistaken. So even though third parties HAVE jumped on the Wii bandwagon, you can't expect high quality games to come out right away. You can be sure they are in the pipeline, but good god man, have some patience.

We're only seeing minigames and ports right now because those are what can be thrown out with minimal effort. Creating stuff from scratch can take years.

NDS is a great example, I think we sometimes forget how horrid the drought was the first year. It dwarfed what the Wii is going through.

[Chozo Ghost]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I've been hearing "it's too soon; devs need more time" stuff for almost a whole year now.  I can't think of any other videogame system in history to have such a high learning curve for development.  The Gamecube was obviously not nearly as successful as the Wii has been but at this point the devs that were actually making games for it had the kinks out.  Same with every other Nintendo console.  This excuse had some weight back in March but it isn't really making much sense anymore.

Same with the "no one thought the Wii would be this successful" excuse used to defend weak third party support.  It has never taken this long for third parties to catch up with the market leader.

There's some sort of problem with the Wii that we can't quite put our finger on and if the Wii ever loses the top spot I think that problem will be the key factor.  This console is taking way too long to really get going.

Umm, Ian... it took well over a year for the DS to really take off in a significant way. The Wii hasn't even been out for a year yet.

Also, it takes more than a year (usually) to make a decent game. How long was Zelda TP in production? It was announced long before the Wii was, if I'm not mistaken. So even though third parties HAVE jumped on the Wii bandwagon, you can't expect high quality games to come out right away. You can be sure they are in the pipeline, but good god man, have some patience.

We're only seeing minigames and ports right now because those are what can be thrown out with minimal effort. Creating stuff from scratch can take years.

NDS is a great example, I think we sometimes forget how horrid the drought was the first year. It dwarfed what the Wii is going through.

Absolutely. Of course the PSP's drought was a 100 times worse, but the DS's drought was still terrible.  I don't think there is really any console that doesn't experience a drought in its first year.

[darknight06]

I'm gonna put the DS first year this way, past Wario Ware Touched, that system practically had not much of anything until fall when Nintendogs and Castlevania, and especially Mario Kart launched.  That system got loaded with third party showelware to the extreme with the exception of a couple of games.  At least on the Wii front I've been playing it all year long with something new going into it each month (shame on you if you missed Godfather, especially if you didn't play it the first time).  I sure as hell can't say that for the DS.

As far as the statement is concerned, once again it seems like everybody's taking it way out of proportion as usual.  I swear, it's almost as if some of you guys are so used to being overly pessimistic to the point where when even ground shaking things happen you guys will find something wrong with it.

[Kairon]

We're used to losing.

[BigJim]

The Wii launch schedule beyond the holidays is pretty vague for worthwhile titles (more vague than GameCube's lineup at this point). There's no logical reason why a developer would not announce their AAA title(s) coming to Wii. We can continue to "give it time" all we want in the hope they show up, but hope is all it is until developers show they're coming. To heck with waiting for the games. I'm still waiting for announcements of games.

[Stogi]

Same here.

But like Samuel L. always says: the abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

[Mario]

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So if I make a proposed new automobile standard and only 10% of the population can drive the thing without crashing it's the drivers' fault?

Do you ever think? You just tried to pass off comparing professional game developers to average joe drivers as fair. Do you really think everyone driving Formula 1 cars around is more likely than game developers making good Wii games? These developers are expected to do their job, just like professional drivers who DO continually adapt to new machinery. I suppose the only difference is, if they crash they could lose their life and if game devs can't adapt they'll blame Nintendo and everyone else or swing a bag.

Here's my analogy. If the developers who are too used to driving in a straight line, don't know what to do when Nintendo adds a steering wheel, then quite simply they are friggin morons. Nintendo needed to add this to keep the consumers interested, we were sick of watching drag races, Nintendo has shown us corners are much more interesting, ratings have gone up, more people are showing up to Nintendos racing series than the old ones. Problem is there's only two or three drivers going around. All developers need to do is show up and try, if they crash THEY WONT DIE! And if they come last, who cares, the people in the stands will still be cheering as they pass the finish line.

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This console is taking way too long to really get going.

It's the fastest selling game console of all time.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Has Mario became a serious poster now? I am so confused! ::Head explodes::  

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Mario Here's my analogy. If the developers who are too used to driving in a straight line, don't know what to do when Nintendo adds a steering wheel, then quite simply they are friggin morons. Nintendo needed to add this to keep the consumers interested, we were sick of watching drag races, Nintendo has shown us corners are much more interesting, ratings have gone up, more people are showing up to Nintendos racing series than the old ones. Problem is there's only two or three drivers going around. All developers need to do is show up and try, if they crash THEY WONT DIE! And if they come last, who cares, the people in the stands will still be cheering as they pass the finish line.

Very well put.

::cleans up the pieces of GP's head::

[BigJim]

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If the developers who are too used to driving in a straight line, don't know what to do when Nintendo adds a steering wheel, then quite simply they are friggin morons.

If the "steering wheel" doesn't pan out to be the next, err, steering wheel, then you can't point the finger at everybody but the source. It doesn't fly when Sony blames movie studios for UMD, and it wouldn't fly for Wiimote. They're taking a calculated risk, and while the steering wheel is working out for them (*sort of) if it's not part of others' agendas, then it's ultimately falling on Nintendo.

* "sort of" referring to how they have the car, they have the steering wheel, but the major metropolis areas are being damn slow about paving the street with curves, while going gung-ho for the straight streets.

What were we talking about again?

Oh yeah, I hate analogies.

[IceCold]

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Originally posted by: Strell
My personal solution?  And before I say this, let me say that I'm almost 100% sure it can't be done.

Essentially, the problem is that we need to know what to, how to do it, and know hot to do it fast.  So, maybe there could be a hologram projector with the system, and basically it does two things.  The obvious first is that it brings up a hologram that shows me whatever motion-sensitive action I can do.  This can be placed ANYWHERE in terms of physical space.  So, a game developer could have it appear next to the screen, so I can see it peripherally.  And maybe it can use different colors, each representing specific things, so I can just instantly know what action to try.

I.e., Metroid: Next again.  Green is "push toward/away/twist the Wiimote" actions for the power cells.  So when I'm playing the game, and I see that hologram come up out of the corner of my eye, I know exactly what kind of actions to try - there's no question in my head.

In fact, it could be standard across different games, so that in ANY game I play, I know green is to do that particular set of actions.  Maybe it doesn't tell me the exact order, but I know the gist of what to try.  You could always show two colors alternating, so I'd know that I need to combine "push toward the tv" with "make a fast curve motion."  In this way, it's really kind of like the second screen on the DS - it provides me with information that I can interpret quickly, but without taking me out of the game, kind of like the maps in Castlevania.  It's there mostly for information purposes and for allowing me to know how to handle situations inside the game world.

Now, I said the hologram would have two basic functions.  The second one would be more for motion-guidance purposes.  In other words, a big problem with some games is that you don't know when you can or can't do something.  I.e., in Wii Tennis, sometimes I'll swing, but my guy doesn't respond, or he does a backhand instead of a forehand.  Or in Zack and Wiki, if I need to saw something, it seems like I can never get the rhythm down 100% (though this doesn't actually hurt me in the game, but is annoying).

So maybe these hologram projections could also be sent "next to the player," or "wherever the player's hands are" - basically, right next to you physically.  The point being here that it provides you with guidance.  What happens, then, is that you can place your hands in the exact position the hologram is in, and mimic the motions.  Whatever is creating the hologram senses this, and sends that data back into the system.  In this manner, it helps guide players into doing actions, allowing them to begin doing something quickly and correctly.  

So now, Metroid:Next again.  I show up at that giant computer screen I was talking about earlier, and I see a set of controls I've never seen before in the game.  I walk over to them.  It's three switches like three Atari joysticks.  A hologram appears near my hands showing me to hold the Wiimote straight up, and then move them like a joystick to use them.  The difference between this function of the hologram and the first one I said (in fact, while you're doing this, maybe there's an orange one up near the screen) is that what this allows me to do is simple - I can alter those three switches quickly.  So, on this second hologram near my hands, THREE of these switches appear.  As I move the Wiimote directly onto each individual representation, the game understand immediately that I'm using switch 2, or switch 3, etc.

The reason I think this is needed is that doing it the current way takes too much time.  I.e., if we had three switches like that now, well, first I have to "select" it by most likely pressing A onscreen (with the IR pointer), THEN a tutorial comes up telling me what to do, I use the switch, I "cancel out" somehow, and then do the same with the other switches.

If we had this hologram projector, instead of doing all of that, instead I walk up, I see an orange reference near the screen, so I know it's "hold the Wiimote straight up and move like a joystick" with my peripheral vision, and ALSO with my peripheral vision, I see three switch representations appear before me, and as I move the Wiimote into conjunction with them, the game lets me interface with all three quickly.

What might take a good 2-3 minutes with the current setup now takes all of 20-30 seconds.

I'm sure I haven't thought this all the way through, and I'm tired and only woke up for a few minutes before going back to bed, but this is sort of my idea for the next system.  Again, I think it's not going to happen, and I'm confident that Nintendo will again floor everyone, but this represents a way to further immerse gamers AND increase intuitive controls with more precise commands.

Making the controls more intuitive while integrating them seamlessly for more immersion? I like the idea.

[IceCold]

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I'm gonna put the DS first year this way, past Wario Ware Touched, that system practically had not much of anything until fall when Nintendogs and Castlevania, and especially Mario Kart launched.

Kirby, Meteos and Advance Wars are crying

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: IceCold

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Originally posted by: Strell
wordwordswordswords

Making the controls more intuitive while integrating them seamlessly for more immersion? I like the idea.

For pete's sake, don't quote entire walls of text. I didn't read it the first time.  

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: BigJim
If the "steering wheel" doesn't pan out to be the next, err, steering wheel, then you can't point the finger at everybody but the source.

Actually, this analogy does fit. Developers can choose to ignore the "steering wheel" and "continue to drive in a straight line" at their own peril. But there's a good indication that people are interested in "cars" that are fitted with the "steering wheel" and want to see some "cars" make use of it in interesting ways.

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Originally posted by: BigJim
It doesn't fly when Sony blames movie studios for UMD, and it wouldn't fly for Wiimote.

UMD is a storage medium. The Wiimote is a controller. How does it affect games? Storage and input device. Apples and oranges. It has a far better chance of flying.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: BigJimIf the "steering wheel" doesn't pan out to be the next, err, steering wheel, then you can't point the finger at everybody but the source. It doesn't fly when Sony blames movie studios for UMD, and it wouldn't fly for Wiimote. They're taking a calculated risk, and while the steering wheel is working out for them (*sort of) if it's not part of others' agendas, then it's ultimately falling on Nintendo.

That is really broken logic. Clearly the Wii remote can and does work. Enough developers have proven that this is true. I know it has been said about a million times, but looks at the DS. People were shoehorning touch controls in for the longest time in their shovelware and making the DS look terrible. But there were plenty of other devs looking for a way to use touch controls to their advantage and change the gameplay experience. As a programmer, and as someone who has programmed for games before, it isn't easy to adjust to such a radical change. Before you could just map simple commands to keys or buttons and most of the work was done for you. Now you need to interpret the input and act accordingly. I'm sure plenty of studios are still figuring out the best way to utilize the Wii remote and are building packages of software that will make integrating it much easier when it comes time to make a game. You'll see great Wii remote games in the very near future. It is just a matter of developers making sure they are ready for liftoff before they just take off. Most developers probably aren't interested in creating shovelware and losing customers. Once they have figured out the equation you will see them come strong out of the gate.

Comparing UMD to Wii Remote just doesn't work, there is no effort on the end of a movie company to put a film on UMD. Also keep in mind that UMD failed because it was over priced and useless, those are two things I can't really say about the Wii.

[Stogi]

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Originally posted by: IceCold

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Originally posted by: Strell
wordswordswords

Making the controls more intuitive while integrating them seamlessly for more immersion? I like the idea.

I don't know. That doesn't seem to help. It would still take too long.

The reason WiiSports is so great is because of the knowledge we have already. We already know how swinging a tennis racket is done, and we know how to bowl. So in essence, to really create immersive atmospheres, we need more obvious functions.

[Ian Sane]

"If the developers who are too used to driving in a straight line, don't know what to do when Nintendo adds a steering wheel, then quite simply they are friggin morons."

That doesn't make any sense.  Nintendo hasn't really changed anything that much.  They've mostly just found a new way to do what we doing before which has some new benefits.  The remote is NOT the big life altering innovation Nintendo promotes it as.  Nintendo didn't create a steering wheel.  The wheel already existed and cars could turn perfectly fine and then Nintendo decided to create a new way to turn a car.  The Wii has been from day one fixing something that was never broken.  They may get non-gamers to TRY the remote and it's a very good marketing tool but no one who spent more than five seconds learning how to use a "traditional" controller had a problem with it.  You could complain that games were getting stale but that's unrelated.  The controller was never the reason why games were getting stale, EA-style corporate rehashing was (and still is).

Nintendo has replaced the steering wheel with something else and it still turns a car and there are a few turns that are now easier and a few that are now harder.  If no one gets it it's not the driver's fault.  It's Nintendo's for fixing what wasn't broke.  And even if it is the driver's fault it doesn't matter.  If only Nintendo and handful of others actually use the remote for something worthwhile then it still doesn't become the standard.  But it's selling so well so everyone is using it, right?  Well for now they are but if we're still getting a bunch of waggle games and last-gen ports and sh!t like that I think the bubble is going to burst at some point.  You can't have a standard if only a handful of developers can use it.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi we need more obvious functions.

Like stabbing people in the face, yes.

Honestly, I'm unsure why a company hasn't made an unabashedly violent game for the Wii which just involves a simple first-person view and stabbing/slashing the crap out of everything in sight.

That gives me a great idea...