Author Topic: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72  (Read 17775 times)

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2007, 09:15:04 AM »
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Originally posted by: Kairon
Zelda's dungeons were tapped out in WW already.


Wind Waker wasn't really about dungeons, what were there, like 4 main ones?  I think Wind waker was more about exploration then Dungeon Design.
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Offline Svevan

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2007, 11:04:31 AM »
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
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Originally posted by: Svevan
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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Okay, maybe I was a little harsh there, don't get me wrong Karl, I agree with spacing out franchises, I'm glad Zelda console releases have 3-4 years between them. I delayed buying Twilight Princess till this year because I played through Ocarina of Time in 2006. I will probably delay Phantom Hourglass until 2008. Nintendo has benefited from skipping generations with their franchise before, like ExciteBike skipping the SNES or Metroid skipping the N64.

I just think it's a little presumptuous to think some of the most creative developers in all of video games are creatively tapped out when it comes to Zelda.

It's not presumptuous when the proof is in the pudding (as in, I can see Nintendo going from "most creative developer ever" to "tapped-out dungeon designers" in Twilight Princess, and it happens at the halfway mark). I argue we need more Zelda, we just don't need more "Dungeon" Zelda. From what I hear, Phantom Hourglass is a pretty typical Zelda game with new controls. So what? I want typical controls with a new Zelda. I argue that point on this podcast.


I can say one thing, you sound much nicer on the podcasts!

I'll take that as a compliment. And I'll take whatever compliments I can get.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2007, 11:44:59 AM »
Okay, I'm calling you on this pudding stuff Evan.
I would argue that the dungeons of the later half a more creative than the earlier ones in TP. Also, the changes you are proposing are superficial. Link doesn't need to stop wearing green and have a Master Lazer SCI-FI sword, those are just skins. Twilight Princess with a sci-fi theme does not a new Zelda make.  Nintendo has stated a change with the next console Zelda, and their track record makes me trust them.

Offline Svevan

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2007, 12:54:45 PM »
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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Okay, I'm calling you on this pudding stuff Evan.
I would argue that the dungeons of the later half a more creative than the earlier ones in TP. Also, the changes you are proposing are superficial. Link doesn't need to stop wearing green and have a Master Lazer SCI-FI sword, those are just skins. Twilight Princess with a sci-fi theme does not a new Zelda make.  Nintendo has stated a change with the next console Zelda, and their track record makes me trust them.

I never said anything about wearing green, that was Jonny, and no one mentioned anything about the sword. I proposed more changes to whatever-the-hell the story is, and to the gameplay. I mentioned Majora's Mask as a prime example, where the battle system (even the green tunic!) were identical to OoT, but the core gameplay was vastly different; even though it retained dungeon hopping and item collecting, the in-between stuff was much deeper and more fulfilling. The masks really changed how we interacted with the dungeons, but also how we interacted with the entire world. Clock Town was a busy, beautiful place; the problems you had to solve before getting to a dungeon were involving.

I felt the same way about most of Wind Waker, and the first half of Twilight Princess. Even if those last few dungeons in TP were really innovative (the "dark world" one was beautiful, too), they were still dungeons. I was so depressed when I had to start collecting the mirror shards, because the game told me "you need five more of these. Go get 'em!" and the story STOPPED, the in-between stuff STOPPED, everything neat in the game was removed, EXCEPT the innovative dungeons. I got bored.

I think dungeons are important to Zelda, but couldn't we possibly have a Zelda story that didn't necessitate collecting pieces of a broken item? It would open up Nintendo to tell different stories, and take us new places in Hyrule, and for different reasons. I loved how mission-based the first half of the game was, with the escort mission, the fight on Hyrule plains, everything. It felt epic. So did the desert dungeon, since I had to walk across the entire damn desert to get to it. I didn't get that epic feeling again until I got into the castle.  
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2007, 01:52:23 PM »
Okay, that was Jonny with the green comment my mistake. Reading your reply makes me think we are more in agreement than not. I don't think that the problem is the mirror piece fetch quests at the end of TP; they are just a Macguffin, the what and the why doesn't matter, it's about the how. Retro did a good job in justifying the "patented Nintendo backtracking quests" in an interview around the time Prime 3 was released, I will have to find a link.

Offline IceCold

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2007, 05:38:12 PM »
Dungeons are my favourite parts of Zelda games.
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Offline Crimm

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2007, 06:18:31 PM »
The story is my favorite part of Zelda games.
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Offline 18 Days

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2007, 06:29:15 PM »
Well you need to get out of the house!

Zelda is about exploration, dungeons are a chore. I'll send in a letter or voice recording in responce to the zelda discussion.
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Offline Svevan

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2007, 07:09:25 PM »
Yes, recorded responses are very welcome!

Shy, I remember the quote. Retro said they wanted to give you a way to actually use all of your powers once you had them. I don't disagree with this, but Nintendo has usually made an "ultimo" dungeon in Zelda that used every item (I got stuck in Hyrule Castle more than in any other Zelda dungeon, ever). Also, once you have all the items, you can go around Hyrule field and find everything you want.

The problem with the mirror piece quest is that it completely reveals the structure of the game, listing off the next five locations you need to hit; the mystery is gone because the story is at a standstill. There's always the chance that crap could happen in between dungeons, but in TP nothing happens. It's just dungeon, dungeon, dungeon, a cinema, final dungeon, endgame.
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Offline Mashiro

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2007, 07:23:43 PM »
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The problem with the mirror piece quest is that it completely reveals the structure of the game, listing off the next five locations you need to hit; the mystery is gone because the story is at a standstill. There's always the chance that crap could happen in between dungeons, but in TP nothing happens. It's just dungeon, dungeon, dungeon, a cinema, final dungeon, endgame.


As much as it pains me to say the following . . .

I agree.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2007, 07:35:28 PM »
Sounds to me like everyone's finally coming around and realizing that Nintendo first-party games are starting to suck! And that Aonouma is failing! *pumps fist*
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2007, 07:36:45 PM »
Who are you refering to? Me?

Because I always felt that about TP but Nintendo's first-party games are (well their main titles in their main franchises) are far from sucking.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2007, 07:45:47 PM »
The green clothing comment on RFN was a silly example, but my point is that Nintendo should stop holding so many things sacred in the Zelda series.  There are way too many traditions in the franchise that could be messed with to throw us off balance and surprise us more.  As Evan said, the transparent structure of the games is a longstanding tradition that really needs to go.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2007, 08:34:13 PM »
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Originally posted by: Kairon
Sounds to me like everyone's finally coming around and realizing that Nintendo first-party games are starting to suck! And that Aonouma is failing! *pumps fist*


Yeah except the part that games like Link to the Past have the same set up as TP, showing you where to go.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2007, 08:51:22 PM »
Nintendo tried screwing with the formula in a little game called SUPER MARIO SUNSHINE. All you haters loved that one.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2007, 08:53:17 PM »
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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Nintendo tried screwing with the formula in a little game called SUPER MARIO SUNSHINE. All you haters loved that one.


Huh? All the complaints I've heard is that the game was too similar to Super Mario Sunshine.  
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2007, 08:53:54 PM »
There are times when I wish Nintendo didn't screw with the formula . . . I'm looking at YOU Star Fox games!

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2007, 08:54:49 PM »
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Originally posted by: Mashiro
There are times when I wish Nintendo didn't screw with the formula . . . I'm looking at YOU Star Fox games!


Nintendo didn't really screw with the formula, it was 3rd parties who did, especially Rare "Let's Slap Star Fox into our original IP" Ware.
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Offline Svevan

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2007, 08:57:08 PM »
Nintendo didn't screw with the formula: they left it for dead. They handed it off to any developer that wanted it, gave them FREE REIGN to REMOVE EVERYTHING THAT MADE STAR FOX GOOD, and called it Star Fox anyways.

edit: George Lucas did a BETTER job with HIS OWN FREAKING PROPERTY than any of those retards did with Star FREAKING Fox

Part of the problem is that Star Fox 64 is too perfect. It's just too damn good; it goes as far with its premise as I think you can go. That's why Namco and Rare went batshlt loco with the gameplay, because they knew they couldn't improve what was already there.  
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2007, 08:58:00 PM »
Well . . . Rare wasn't really to blame for that I don't think. IIRC it was Nintendo who pushed making the game about Star Fox characters after Rare showed them an unfinished version of the game, but I could be wrong.

Nintendo owes us a great Star Fox 64-esk adventure though that's for sure!

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2007, 09:00:06 PM »
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Originally posted by: Svevan
Nintendo didn't screw with the formula: they left it for dead. They handed it off to any developer that wanted it, gave them FREE REIGN to REMOVE EVERYTHING THAT MADE STAR FOX GOOD, and called it Star Fox anyways.

edit: George Lucas did a BETTER job with HIS OWN FREAKING PROPERTY than any of those retards did with Star FREAKING Fox

Part of the problem is that Star Fox 64 is too perfect. It's just too damn good; it goes as far with its premise as I think you can go. That's why Namco and Rare went batshlt loco with the gameplay, because they knew they couldn't improve what was already there.


Went as far as it could? Tell that to Factor 5, they will LAUGH at you! Dragons, X-WIngs, and Millenium Falcons show you that it didn't go as far as it could!
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2007, 09:02:20 PM »
Well, I liked LTTP, it was fun back then, but I dunno.  It always felt too enclosed to me.  I never really got to explore things the way I wanted to.  It did have a hint of that, but not enough.  I felt too constrained in the bits of OoT I played.  I wanted to do what I wanted to do, and not have to follow a strict pathway under the illusion of an open world.  In the Oracle games, I felt the same way, and also, I felt like the whole Past/Future/Seasons thing was a crappy way of mimicking the light and dark worlds.  Zelda II was too repetitive, while the original had too little guidlines.

I think I might like Wind Waker, I just never played it.

Twilight Princess was something I planned to buy, but never did.

Do you know why FSA was the best Zelda?  Because it was the one that wasn't fake.  In our hearts, we all know Zelda is about dungeon crawling while traversing an amazing, diverse world.  The problem really is that while the world is diverse, there aren't really any games where your pathways and experiences can be unique each time you play it.  Sure, you might be able to play dungeon x, y, and z in whatever order you like, but you're going to play them the exact same way anyways, no matter what.  FSA got rid of the lie about it.  It had several settings, great bosses, and the linear, dungeon-puzzler gameplay all the others had, but wasn't fake about it.  It's loads and loads of the core Zelda gameplay without an annoying trek across a relatively empty land for the twelfth time.

I've always seen later Zelda games as wannabe Super Metroids:  They want to offer an expansive world, they want to offer different pathways for items and weapons and tools, pathways that weave back and forth between each other.  They want to offer different ways to play through a dungeon and different ways to defeat the boss.  The problem is that they don't.  They force you to explore a world that you can only see and not touch, except at one specific time.  Then at that point, you go and touch because it's what you're supposed to do, and after that, you're done there.  You might have to go back at the end for a fetch quest, maybe, but who really cares at that point.

I guess I'm saying I see so much more possible for LoZ that I think the current state of the games seems pitiful right now.  No, it isn't because of Aonouma, and no, it isn't because of Miyamoto.  It's really because the games never grew.  They never matured.  Yes, LTTP was a great build on LoZ, and yes, OoT took what LTTP was and made it 3D, but it didn't exactly do too much more.  After that, things just stopped.  The Handheld games never pushed anything more, and while Majora's Mask did, it's considered an outcast by several of the series's biggest fans.  There's a small sect that sees what should be, and what should have been done after Majora's Mask, but truthfully, most people are just blissfully ignorant.

Well, I don't like to be ignorant.  I don't want to play a game that's a shell of what it should be (except Alien Syndrome).  I'm not going to waste my time playing something that thinks it is something else.  So get with the picture, Nintendo.  I agree that the game needs to grow.  That's what people really want, whether they know it or not.  They want a full world with endless open opportunities, but one goal: Save the Princess*.  They don't really want Oblivion, where you can do whatever you want for no real reason.  They don't want GTA XIV  King Louis edition, where, once again, they do whatever they want for no true reason.  They want a game with a beginning, an end, and a new adventure all throughout each time the game is played.  Otherwise it's just a feign swing at what could have been.

Does anyone else see what I'm getting at?  Am I the only one who feels this way?  I certainly feel like I'm not, and there's obviously people dissatisfied with LoZ games around, but does anyone else feel this strongly about it?

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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2007, 09:02:43 PM »
Except one thing . . . Star Fox DID NOT go as far as it could go. There was one area where it was sorely lacking a really refined gaming experience . . .

Multiplayer

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2007, 09:04:22 PM »
Thatguy is freaking insane.

Offline IceCold

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RE: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 72
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2007, 09:04:56 PM »
Well the formula can now be improved with the remote.. hopefully it's made in-house though.

I fully expect a Star Fox, an Animal Crossing and an F-Zero game to be revealed at or before E3 next year.

And if we're lucky, Kirby and Pikmin, but probably not.
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