Topic: The more I think about it...

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo They don't really exist. What happens to them is unimportant and means nothing.

The entire basis of this argument is that these characters have attained an iconic status and as such hold a special place in the heart of many of their patrons, MYSELF INCLUDED, who dislike seeing them treated this way.

I don't want to see Mario's neck broken. What's wrong with that concept? It's right up there with not wanting to see the flesh seared off of Link's bones or to see Samus being raped (which is why I stay away from certain sections of the internet). It takes characters who exist in one context and places them in another in which they don't belong.

I don't care if it's Snake's context. This isn't Snake's game: it's Nintendo's, and I don't recall a Nintendo game where breaking necks was an option.

And Mario and I aren't the only ones in this thread who object to the Snake snap.

[that Baby guy]

Just like I don't want to see Mario eaten, or burned to death, or drown, or fall off of a cliff, or eat poisoned food, or get crushed or impaled to death.  Geez, Mario's been through the worst already.  Pay attention:  You've caused worse to Mario.  You've caused worse to Samus.  Link gets the life sucked out of him by re-deads, right?  This isn't real life, it's a video game, and in other video games with theses characters, we've seen much worse.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: thatguy
Just like I don't want to see Mario eaten, or burned to death, or drown, or fall off of a cliff, or eat poisoned food, or get crushed or impaled to death.  Geez, Mario's been through the worst already.  Pay attention:  You've caused worse to Mario.  You've caused worse to Samus.  Link gets the life sucked out of him by re-deads, right?  This isn't real life, it's a video game, and in other video games with theses characters, we've seen much worse.

Once again, its not what they do to these characters its how they SHOW them.

When Mario gets eaten they just swallow him in a cartoony way, like in cartoons. It would be graphic if they chew him up and you see blood and guts everywhere. Same with being crushed. He gets flat like a pancake, just like in cartoons. Hell, even when he dies he has two Xs in his eyes, a typical joke in cartoons.

Even if Link's suffered worse deaths they still tone it down. Even if he was burned to death he just flashes red and faints.

Samus just explodes into a white light when she dies, and in the Prime games the screen goes black before we can see anything.

The point is that even if death is presented in the Nintendo games they are not overly graphic to the point where they disturb the player.

I still think that fans are so eager for Brawl that they are more than willing to overlook these things because they care more about playing it. Like S_B said, though, we are NOT the only ones that have noticed this and not everyone is happy to see this.

EDIT: Thinking about it, there MIGHT be a small chance that they will cut the move out of the game. Maybe Japan doesn't care about this, but the US and the ESRB do so if they look at this they might order Hal and Nintendo to either tone it down or take it out completely.

[that Baby guy]

They can't order them to do anything. The game will receive a T rating, and it'll be fine with it.  Nintendo censors less and less, and with this game, after the success of Melee, they won't touch a thing.

There's some pretty graphic content in Nintendo games.  The re-deads are an excellent example.  They literally latch on and suck the life out of you.  When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too.  In the original Pokemon, there was a ghost tower for the souls of burdened dead pokemon, and that's pretty heavy for a game for young children, considering in battle, Pokemon only faint.  Draygon leeches Samus pretty well, also, despite the power suit.

You're being a hypocrite.  A bad one at that.  You've seen this stuff happen to these characters all the time, and now that it's slightly more realistic, it isn't considered ok?  I mean, we already had grabs.  Heck, Yoshi even chewed on people in his mouth!  That isn't something that appalled you?  Cartoons can be more violent than have the stuff out there.  Oh, Bugs just shot off Elmer Fudd's head with a shotgun, but it's ok, because it's a cartoon.  Well, this is a video game.  Snake is going to snap someone's neck.  We've seen them shot, falling off cliffs, shocked, burned, sliced, diced, exploded, thrown at with random objects, grabbed, eaten, beaten senseless, and more, so I don't see the problem.  This isn't any worse than grabbing someone and slapping/beating them like in Melee.

[LuigiHann]

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Originally posted by: thatguy
When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too.

That's a pretty good comparison. Mario's drowning is pretty much exactly as graphic and realistic as this neck snap is.  

[Adrock]

I agree with thatguy too.

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Even if Link's suffered worse deaths they still tone it down. Even if he was burned to death he just flashes red and faints.

Some of the things in Soul Calibur II were pretty graphic and sexual. Sophitia, for example, can gut you and perform a throw move where it looks like she sits on your face.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: thatguy
They can't order them to do anything. The game will receive a T rating, and it'll be fine with it.  Nintendo censors less and less, and with this game, after the success of Melee, they won't touch a thing.

There's some pretty graphic content in Nintendo games.  The re-deads are an excellent example.  They literally latch on and suck the life out of you.  When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too.  In the original Pokemon, there was a ghost tower for the souls of burdened dead pokemon, and that's pretty heavy for a game for young children, considering in battle, Pokemon only faint.  Draygon leeches Samus pretty well, also, despite the power suit.

You're being a hypocrite.  A bad one at that.  You've seen this stuff happen to these characters all the time, and now that it's slightly more realistic, it isn't considered ok?  I mean, we already had grabs.  Heck, Yoshi even chewed on people in his mouth!  That isn't something that appalled you?  Cartoons can be more violent than have the stuff out there.  Oh, Bugs just shot off Elmer Fudd's head with a shotgun, but it's ok, because it's a cartoon.  Well, this is a video game.  Snake is going to snap someone's neck.  We've seen them shot, falling off cliffs, shocked, burned, sliced, diced, exploded, thrown at with random objects, grabbed, eaten, beaten senseless, and more, so I don't see the problem.  This isn't any worse than grabbing someone and slapping/beating them like in Melee.

Look, we may have drastically different views on the subject matter but there's no absolute need to insult me or anyone you disagree with. You bring up some good points but is brought down by the immaturity of your comment.

As for your examples, I agree that those have been featured in the game, but once more, save for Mario's drowning animation, they have been done in a way that isn't overly disturbing or graphic yet still has a presence in the story.

[that Baby guy]

It's just as disturbing as the clip of Snake snapping Mario's neck.  Like the clip, it shows a semi-accurate depiction of a real-life death, and shows the after effects.  The difference?  After the neck snap, Mario can get up.  Additionally, Nintendo can do something about this if they really don't like it.  Take a look at your avatar, though.  In it, we see a picture of Tingle shot with an arrow as he was flying in the air.  There are still several people who practice archery, and your avatar depicts what happened could happen in a realistic way, aside from the fact that people don't fly in the air with balloons, and instead would be hit on the ground or in a tree stand.  Why is it ok for your avatar to depict the gruesome slaying of a child-like Zelda character, while Brawl can't depict a quick, near-harmless neck attack on a character we've seen die dozens or hundreds of times?  Doesn't that strike you as hypocritical?

You say Samus is in a suit, but when we play Super Metroid, we see that all the scientists in the introductory segment were murdered by the Space Pirates.  These are civilians defenselessly killed in cold blood.  You can see in the cut-scene pictures that these are very old men.  Is this ok?  Samus kills Draygon, a creature who turns out to be a mother just defending her babies.  That's alright, too, I suppose.

Despite what you're arguing, Nintendo games aren't all tulips and sunshine.  Even Pikmin, the game that is basically tulips and sunshine exhibits life and death in some amazingly graphic, true-to-nature ways.  Everytime I read a detail about Pikmin's enemy and boss fights, or see a video, or play the game, I'm shocked at how these nearly defenseless Pikmin creatures drown, get eaten, or even explode, among things.  Is this ok?  If it is, yet Snake's actions aren't, doesn't that seem a tad hypocritical to you?

[LuigiHann]

People, people. These are animated trophies fighting for fun. Remember that? They get back up afterward, and they seem to be comrades, ultimately. So clearly, Snake is just pretending to snap Mario's neck. It's part of the sport.  

[Adrock]

I think a more important issue here is that Sophitia can sit on Link's face in Soul Calibur II. He has never gotten so much as a kiss from Zelda yet he gets close enough to see that Sophitia is, in fact, a real blond.

Sex issues > Violence issues

Please think of the children.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: LuigiHann
People, people. These are animated trophies fighting for fun. Remember that? They get back up afterward, and they seem to be comrades, ultimately. So clearly, Snake is just pretending to snap Mario's neck. It's part of the sport.

I have to agree about the animated trophies sentiment. Even if we have different views on the subject I think this debate a little too heated for its own good.

[that Baby guy]

Right, they're animated trophies, everything is pretend, and the violence isn't real, so why do we care how it looks, anyways?  We all know it's solely for entertainment.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: thatguy  There's some pretty graphic content in Nintendo games.  The re-deads are an excellent example.  They literally latch on and suck the life out of you.  When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too.  In the original Pokemon, there was a ghost tower for the souls of burdened dead pokemon, and that's pretty heavy for a game for young children, considering in battle, Pokemon only faint.  Draygon leeches Samus pretty well, also, despite the power suit.

Are you serious?

You're comparing an actual killing blow to a "LIFE DRAIN"? Sorry, but the "machine" in "The Princess Bride" isn't a real invention. "Sucking life" is not a realistic means of death, and it sure as hell isn't a method one person can use to slay another (not in THIS lifetime, anyway).

I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything. If Snake can break necks, what's to argue against Quagmire and his "mount" attack?

So what if he looks like he's molesting a character from behind, they're FINE a second later, right?

[wandering]

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I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything.

We're all a bit blinded by our love of Nintendo. I love Nintendo, and so have a hard time finding fault with any of Nintendo's decisions. You love Nintendo, and so have a hard time seeing a personification of Nintendo being killed by a personification of Sony.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: wandering

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I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything.

I think everyone here is blinded, a bit, by their love of Nintendo. Me, Bill, and others have a hard time finding fault with any of Nintendo's decisions. You have a hard time seeing a personification of the company you love being killed by a personification of Sony.

A bit? I've seen people glorify and justify some crappy updates in the past. I would say A LOT. Not to belittle anyone, but SSB is the only Nintendo series that gets fans so hyped that the idea of it being flawed is extremely foreign and a nuisance. I know because back in the day when Melee was about to launch S_B's comments bugged me to no end.

I mean, even the possibility of the online matches being plagued by serious lag, something that even the creator himself admitted and apologized for, is foreign for some.

[Mashiro]

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I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything. If Snake can break necks, what's to argue against Quagmire and his "mount" attack?

It's called a "slippery slope" and it's a fallacy.

I also like how Adrock keeps pointing out SCII. as I did a number of pages back, but I don't think anyone responded to that . . .

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I mean, even the possibility of the online matches being plagued by serious lag, something that even the creator himself admitted and apologized for, is foreign for some.

What was said, if I recall correctly, is that 1v1 matches (2 players battling one another) worked fine but there was some difficulty getting the 4 player battle aspect down. He said nothing about issues of lag plaguing the online play experience.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Mashiro

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I mean, even the possibility of the online matches being plagued by serious lag, something that even the creator himself admitted and apologized for, is foreign for some.

What was said, if I recall correctly, is that 1v1 matches (2 players battling one another) worked fine but there was some difficulty getting the 4 player battle aspect down. He said nothing about issues of lag plaguing the online play experience.

From the SSB Brawl website:
"But because this form of communication is greatly affected by the distance between you and your opponent, your brawls may not run smoothly if you’re really far apart—like, for instance, if you’re connecting between Japan and America.

The more distant you are, the worse your connection becomes, and the slower it feels. I apologize, but I hope you understand."

He definitely says there WILL be issues in online mode.  While he only mentions that lag will occur if you are playing with people from far away places it doesn't mean that the game won't have issues with online play.

[Adrock]

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I also like how Adrock keeps pointing out SCII. as I did a number of pages back, but I don't think anyone responded to that

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread..... and if it makes you feel better, no one responded to me either (besides you, kind of). Still, I didn't keep pointing it out. I pointed it out twice and really, I just wanted to mention how Sophitia sits on people's faces.

[Mashiro]

Oh I wasn't saying that as a negative Adrock, I was complimenting you on using that as a prime example of Nintendo characters (or A character in this case) being put in a situation where realistic, deadly moves are being performed on them.

=)

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He definitely says there WILL be issues in online mode. While he only mentions that lag will occur if you are playing with people from far away places it doesn't mean that the game won't have issues with online play.

He says may and uses american players vs japanese players as an example of being very far away . . . so I wouldn't call that being plagued. If anything he's more just stating an obvious truth. The further you are, the more time it takes for data to be sent over a connection and well you know the rest.

I'm not saying the game is going to play perfect online all the time, I'm just saying it's a little pre-mature to say it is plagued with issues.

[Dirk Temporo]

The fact that anybody cares so much about this issue is a distinct sign of deep-seated emotional issues. Iconic status doesn't mean sh!t. In the end they're JUST VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS. I mean seriously.

"BAWWWWWWWW I DON'T LIKE SEEING MARIO TREATED LIKE THAT" is not a compelling argument. It's immature and baseless. The fact that you're allowing yourself to be so put off by this says that you need to take a step back and stop taking everything so seriously.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: wandering You love Nintendo, and so have a hard time seeing a personification of Nintendo being killed by a personification of Sony.

Interesting observation, but it's not the Sony personification that matters so much as the fact that it's Mario having his neck broken.

Here's the thing, and something which I largely don't understand: how do the people here be a fan of video games to the point where they post on a Nintendo fansite and yet not take issue with the same thing I've seen done in anti-Nintendo flash animations and comics which are intended to anger Nintendo fans being done in SSB?

My real question is still "Why?". They went out of their way to mention that none of Snake's firearms would be in the game and the intention for that was clearly to keep the game an easy T for teen. So why throw the neck-snap into the game? Nintendo sure as hell didn't NEED the M crowd, and I DEFINITELY hope they're not playing to the "LOOK! SNAKE IS BREAKING MARIO'S NECK! LOLOLOL!!" crowd.

In the grand scheme of things, there was zero need for it so why add it?  

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
The fact that anybody cares so much about this issue is a distinct sign of deep-seated emotional issues. Iconic status doesn't mean sh!t. In the end they're JUST VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS. I mean seriously.

"BAWWWWWWWW I DON'T LIKE SEEING MARIO TREATED LIKE THAT" is not a compelling argument. It's immature and baseless. The fact that you're allowing yourself to be so put off by this says that you need to take a step back and stop taking everything so seriously.

Whoah hold on a sec...

I agree that its silly to get into heated arguments over game characters, but don't forget that these characters have a rich history and a big presence in our lives.

Mario is an icon. He represents everything great about Nintendo and has been in some of the best games ever made. Its because of this that many gamers have grown to love him. So its fair and understandable if some fans don't like seeing getting fiercely attacked by Snake.

That comment's a bit too much don't you think? I mean, to accuse people of having emotional issues because they don't like seeing a character being murdered? That's just being heartless.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: pap64 That comment's a bit too much don't you think?

I like Dirk despite his tendencies, but subtlety really isn't one of his strong suits.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: pap64 That comment's a bit too much don't you think?

I like Dirk despite his tendencies, but subtlety really isn't one of his strong suits.

I think he went a bit too far. I mean, if he thinks people that care for a character have issues anyone that LOVES SSB should get shock treatment ASAP.

[NWR_insanolord]

The difference between fan-made flash animations and this is that this isn't being done with the intention of pissing off Nintendo fans and the action is occuring in a context where it makes sense, where Snake and Mario are fighting each other.