Author Topic: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical  (Read 32852 times)

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« on: September 13, 2007, 03:43:39 PM »
This is a topic I've been thinking about for a long time, and it's not something that really ever gets discussed in our industry. (If anyone knows of some good writing on the subject, please let me know.) I finally got a chance to talk about it on the new episode of Radio Free Nintendo. It's in the last segment, 46 minutes from the start if you want to skip directly to it.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=14373

I'd really like to get some more input and thoughts on this topic and develop an interest in it going forward.

The gist of my stance: T-rated, sanitized games based on historical wars are both disrespecting the veterans and citizen casualties of the real events AND are desensitizing gamers to the realities of war, particularly the moral issues that soldiers and commanders have to deal with on the battlefield. Game developers boast about the painstaking authenticity of their gun models, sound effects, and environment layouts, yet these games have you shooting other humans with no bloodshed and vanishing corpses. As members of and consumers for the game industry, we should be asking ourselves whether the invasion of Normandy should be made fun.

In the podcast, I say that the most realistic representation of WWII that I've seen in a game is Conker's Bad Fur Day. That is sad, folks.

[Note: I also posted this on NeoGAF.  The next time I even think about trying to start a serious discussion on GAF, please slap me thrice so I won't easily forget the lesson.]

[Note 2: In all fairness to GAF, a few people eventually entered the thread and started to actually discuss things, rather than just make fun of me for posing a serious philosophical question about video games.  It's balancing out now.]
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 04:10:53 PM »
Haven't EA and Infinity Ward both worked with actual WW2 vets and the History Channel when developing their games? A game is a game, you have to make it fun. If they were real war simulators, no one would buy them because they would be too sad. It's really not much different than say Trauma Center, where bandaging people up and extracting tumors is made into a game, aside from being based on actual events. It's certainly not disrespectful, they're just allowing players to pretend like they are in a war, without having to deal with the real consequences. As a consumer of the game industry, I *do* feel that *playing a game where you are a character* invading a digital reperesentaion of Normandy should be made fun.
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Offline darknight06

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 04:14:56 PM »
I bet you neither EA or Activision would make a game out of Vietnam... and for the obvious reason.

Offline UERD

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 04:15:24 PM »
Would they be *more* ethical if they had the blood, guts, and horrific carnage that characterized movies like Saving Private Ryan- as a reminder that war is a horrid business and not just fun and games? Or is the medium inherently disrespectful (like you said, making the Battle of Normandy into an entertainment experience)?
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Offline IceCold

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 04:20:46 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: darknight06
I bet you neither EA or Activision would make a game out of Vietnam... and for the obvious reason.
Well, Conflict: Vietnam did get made, but I don't know who published it..
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 05:43:43 PM »
So it's perfectly fine to make killing people fun as long as it's not a recreation of historical events?
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Offline Shecky

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 05:51:52 PM »
This whole topic will soon be moot because these world war settings are the new Hoth.

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 06:04:44 PM »
Johnnyboy, I'm so glad you brought this up.  I've been so uncomfortable with these games since they started coming out of the woodwork a few years ago.  I'm right there with you.  

Offline Kairon

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2007, 06:53:59 PM »
You posted this on NeoGAF? HAH!

Also, Conker's Bad Fur Day was a GREAT game. Just.... wanted to say that.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 06:54:45 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Brandogg
Haven't EA and Infinity Ward both worked with actual WW2 vets and the History Channel when developing their games? A game is a game, you have to make it fun. If they were real war simulators, no one would buy them because they would be too sad. It's really not much different than say Trauma Center, where bandaging people up and extracting tumors is made into a game, aside from being based on actual events. It's certainly not disrespectful, they're just allowing players to pretend like they are in a war, without having to deal with the real consequences. As a consumer of the game industry, I *do* feel that *playing a game where you are a character* invading a digital reperesentaion of Normandy should be made fun.


There's a lot to think about in this post.  Yes, the war game developers often work closely with veterans and historians to nail down the authenticity of certain elements in the game.  As I say on the podcast, I think they're making all the wrong things authentic.  They are spending a lot of effort to exactly model the guns and tanks, and yet the overall representation of the events is very cartoonish.

Trauma Center is an interesting game, in that they have intentionally made it cartoonish to avoid grossing out the player.  I doubt many people could really be affected by Trauma Center, because it's so heavily based on fictional drama, and also because most of the surgeries themselves are fantasy-based (removing GUILT).  With the war games, I think there is a major distinction between the fictional games and those based on real historical events.

Many video games are built on the idea of simulating a real experience that would be too dangerous or too expensive for most people to try in real life.  That goes for most sports games, racing games, etc.  But sports and racing aren't morally ambiguous activities, and they don't normally involve people dying (or killing).  I can only think of a handful of games in which you are put in the situation of being able to kill virtual representations of real people: historical war games, Super Columbine RPG Massacre, that JFK assassination game, Conflict: Desert Storm (in which you can shoot Saddam Hussein), and that abysmal anti-terrorism game in which you can fight Osama bin Laden in a kung fu match.  All of these games were controversial at some point, some extremely so, but WWII games are never controversial.  The Vietnam games of a few years ago raised eyebrows, and rightly so.  Now what is so different about making a Vietnam game and a WWII game?

I've been asked a few times whether it would be more respectful to have a WWII game be extremely bloody.  Let me put it this way: can you imagine the mainstream reaction to a PG-rated WWII movie?  The veterans would be outraged!  Saving Private Ryan is one of the most revered war movies ever made, and it's extremely graphic and downright horrifying.  I can understand why some vets wouldn't even be able to watch it.  But I bet even those guys can respect it, because it doesn't make light of what happened.  It doesn't sugarcoat the decision to take another man's life, even when you feel justified to do so.

I agree that a game taken to this level of realism and thoughtfulness would probably not be fun anymore.  But this gets into an even larger question about video games: is it possible to create a game that is not necessarily fun, but still appealing to people in some other way?  Is it necessary that interactivity = fun?  If so, then video games are essentially toys and can never be anything more thanthat.  But if this medium is a true art form, then at some point we have to get over the fun requirement and concede that interactive entertainment can be viable and compelling even if its aim is to teach us a history lesson or scare the daylights out of us.  Millions of people have seen the movie Saw, and I doubt many of them truly had "fun" doing so, but they were still drawn to it for other reasons.  It is still considered entertainment, and nothing but.  (Sorry for that example... I actually think Saw is a terrible movie.)
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Offline nickmitch

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 07:02:46 PM »
The problem I see with WWII games is that when you tell the truth too much, you have to start lying to make it interesting. This seems to be what's happening.
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Offline King of Twitch

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2007, 07:25:53 PM »
I think it's unethical because they are cranked out like Madden every year. There were two of them in the first 6 months of the Wii's launch. Also..

Call of Duty GC: Finest Hour GC: 7.0 - IGN
Call of Duty 2 GC: Big Red One GC: 8.0 - IGN
COD 3 Wii: 6.0, IGN: 7.7
MOH Vanguard Wii: 7.0 - IGN (press average: 5.8, ouch)
MOH European Assault GC: 5.5, IGN: 8.1
MOH Rising Sun GC: 7.0, IGN: 7.5
MOH Frontline GC: 7.5, IGN: 7.9

What is it about WW2 that brings out the mediocrity of these companies? So they can reuse sound effects and make a cardboard cutout of a bobbing gun, BFD. That can be reused for every game. I want to enjoy these games as an experience that a movie can't give you, but there is a severe shortage of merit. Enough cartoons, I say.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2007, 07:57:22 PM »
Hey Jonny, was Wolfenstein3D unethical?

Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2007, 08:00:59 PM »
Wolfenstein might be unethical if Hitler had actually lived in a castle guarded by demons.

I can't make this clear enough: I am only talking about games based on historical events.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2007, 08:06:10 PM »
Hey Jonny, is the Dynasty Warriors Series unethical?

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2007, 08:06:14 PM »
Ehhe, I don't think this is a big deal. Just like any war in history, I don't see any problem with putting your own twist on it to make it "fun".
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2007, 09:19:13 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Ehhe, I don't think this is a big deal. Just like any war in history, I don't see any problem with putting your own twist on it to make it "fun".


But that's what Johhny is saying. Isn't the "funning" of war distorting the audience's perception of war, maybe even glamorizing it, and doing a disservice to the real, serious, and very important reasons about why these wars happened and what happened during them?
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2007, 09:28:48 PM »
Of course it's a disservice: it's ENTERTAINMENT.

Of course it's entertainment: it's A DUMBED-DOWN FANTASY.

War isn't really "fun", it's quite a lot of hard work and bleeding, and even the tactical side of warfare in "gameplay" is largely removed from the games (see the rise and fall of tactical shooter genre).  Sincere authenticity doesn't sell, cuz it's just overwhelming for all those mainstream bang-bang players.
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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2007, 09:33:55 PM »
Taking what you say into account Jonny, would the Da Vinci Code and the Stargate franchise be unethical for its interpretation of history? Paintings hide historical icons, and the egyptian pyramids are alien landing pads?

There's an article in the Metro today about a game (Blazing Angels: Secret of WWII) saying how they painstakingly created a 1940s-environment yet used modern weaponry in it. Weird design choice, but for those really there at the time it just weren't like that. They all don't recreate the emotional aspect.

Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 10:01:49 PM »
Haha, NeoGAF. Might as well make the thread on GameFAQs, they're both as horrible as eachother. Also I agree, I think it's pretty pathetic that the Medal of Honor games still don't even have proper reactions from people when you shoot them. Check out the Brothers in Arms games, Jonny! You'll see people get blown to bits and so forth.  

Offline Darkheart

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 10:09:07 PM »
I am 100% positive developers run into veterans of war who DO NOT enjoy what they are doing to these sort of games.   One of my ex professors was a veteran of Vietnam and he would often talk about what he saw in the war. . . .it was just painful to listen to.  The man would often break out crying sometimes talking about how he would find boots on the battlefield to take and use but when he try it on he would still find the last user's foot inside it still.  He said to this day he still had flash back dreams and his mind still thought about it occasionally.  I am against any game promoting war I wish they were never sold at all BUT I would never want this realistic style of game to be sold either.  

What if a war game had your brother fully modeled in 3-d and voiced?  What if he got shot and dismembered into a bloody pile of remains?  What if you had to sit there and listen to him screaming in pain as he died?  Then at the end of the game you come home to see your own mother sobbing uncontrollably and your sister asking if you tried your best to save him?  I don't think many people could sit through that if done right but obviously you couldn't have your family in the game.

I just strongly support Johnny's view I won't go into it further than that.  

Offline Deguello

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 10:41:49 PM »
I echo the sentiments by Jonny and even further find dismay is the injection of current events into games.  It's not even relegated to the sphere of Tom Clancy anymore, now that Resident Evil 5 sees no problem in depicting the enemies in realistic terms.  I mean the Africans dancing around and stepping forward to cut people?  That's not caricature like the Spanish people in RE4, who have no realworld counterpart (they kinda approach you like the villagers approached the Creature in the film versions of Frankenstein.)  That stuff in RE5 pretty damn real.  Watch some of the tapes of the Rwandan Genocide.  They DO that stuff.  They run at people and hack them with machetes.  They're even doing it right now, as  I speak.  And it's not like the trouble in Africa is over or has been over for a long time.  In some places, it's still going on.  It's a poor choice of setting and is grossly insensitive to their plight.  What's even more cynical is that Africa just happens to be the smallest game market outside of Antarctica, which means most of them may not even know or won't know for a long time that the events of their current continental unrest and deep personal tragedy is being used as a backdrop for an action game.  Most of the African exchange students at my university were appalled when I told them, and they're not even from Rwanda (Mostly Nigeria, you know where they rip you off on the internet (lol I know, gross generalization.))

This brings to light this ever elusive separation of Games to other forms of media.  Films about current events can bring action or understanding of events because somebody is telling you something.  Books can certainly influence action and understanding.  Even music (big during the protest movements of the 60's-70's) can do so.  The big thing about all these is that they are all passive as can be.  Games are active.  You participate.  And this diffuses the ethical problems off of simply the directors and authors and musicians.  In other media, they and they alone are responsible for their messages.  With games, we would all share the guilt, because we all participate.

 
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 11:11:16 PM »
One thing preventing games becoming a legitimate art form is that people use it purely for the sake of escapism.  Very few games ever have any substance whatsoever.  Now, I do consider games an art form, and probably the most fascinating one currently available for consumption because it differs so greatly from every other one.  I don't want to get into the "games as art" debate, because that's more or less irrelevant, but I bring it up because I don't know if I've ever seen a game face social or ethical problems in the way that books, films, or paintings so often do.  Some games hint at them in a general way (Fire Emblem, for instance), but even the best of those games tend to be severely simplified, polarized to good and evil, made abstract and unrealistic to obscure the more serious issues they point to.
People are so passive nowadays, people are hardly ever willing to watch an engaging film, something that raises questions.  They'd much rather watch something formulaic.  Passive viewing in film is a tragedy, but it's even more tragic when we look at gaming.  We have here perhaps the most involving and active form of entertainment/art available, and the most popular games are passive games, games that you can play without thinking.  I don't care that Grand Theft Auto is hyper-violent, but it's possibly the most soulless game I've ever played.  I won't get into the poor game design, miserable controls, careless visuals and story, but consider the fact that your eyes gloss over when you play the game.  You blow up a streetside without considering the consequences, without even feeling the power of that explosion.  It's a purely passive game, something meant for immediate satisfaction and nothing else.  I despise that.  Even if games like Metroid or Mario don't delve into psychological complexities or the ethical challenges facing our social landscape, at least they require coordination and stimulate the mind, intellectually and creatively.
But I would thrill to play a game that didn't shy away from true problems or issues.  I don't think every game should be serious, I think you need escapism sometimes, brilliantly simple stuff like Jungle Beat, but we could certainly use a game that expanded our awareness of the world, to show what games could do.  I could see a war game that delved into suffering, where you saw more of your comrades dying, maybe your own arm being blown off, seeing children murdered, and less of you gunning down the Nazis and performing heroics.  You aren't the hero.  You're one of the dozens of soldiers that make up one functional whole.  And if you do accomplish anything, you've got to see the full spectrum of your actions.  Who you've killed and who you've saved, if you're lucky enough to even manage that.

People would never go for that, not the ridiculous breed of gamers we have to put up with nowadays (not all of them, but the vast majority of them), but it'd be an interesting realm to explore.  I wouldn't want it to be exploitive, of course, which would be hard to pull off.  But imagine a game where there is no final villain, no saving the world, no heroics, just inevitable failure and obscurity.
I'm kind of rambling, it's very very very late.  But I think the fantasy world of gaming has gotten a bit out of hand, and I'd really like to see something that challenged me with more than just a tough boss fight.
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Offline Darkheart

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2007, 12:02:03 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
One thing preventing games becoming a legitimate art form is that people use it purely for the sake of escapism.  Very few games ever have any substance whatsoever.  Now, I do consider games an art form, and probably the most fascinating one currently available for consumption because it differs so greatly from every other one.  I don't want to get into the "games as art" debate, because that's more or less irrelevant, but I bring it up because I don't know if I've ever seen a game face social or ethical problems in the way that books, films, or paintings so often do.  Some games hint at them in a general way (Fire Emblem, for instance), but even the best of those games tend to be severely simplified, polarized to good and evil, made abstract and unrealistic to obscure the more serious issues they point to.
People are so passive nowadays, people are hardly ever willing to watch an engaging film, something that raises questions.  They'd much rather watch something formulaic.  Passive viewing in film is a tragedy, but it's even more tragic when we look at gaming.  We have here perhaps the most involving and active form of entertainment/art available, and the most popular games are passive games, games that you can play without thinking.  I don't care that Grand Theft Auto is hyper-violent, but it's possibly the most soulless game I've ever played.  I won't get into the poor game design, miserable controls, careless visuals and story, but consider the fact that your eyes gloss over when you play the game.  You blow up a streetside without considering the consequences, without even feeling the power of that explosion.  It's a purely passive game, something meant for immediate satisfaction and nothing else.  I despise that.  Even if games like Metroid or Mario don't delve into psychological complexities or the ethical challenges facing our social landscape, at least they require coordination and stimulate the mind, intellectually and creatively.
But I would thrill to play a game that didn't shy away from true problems or issues.  I don't think every game should be serious, I think you need escapism sometimes, brilliantly simple stuff like Jungle Beat, but we could certainly use a game that expanded our awareness of the world, to show what games could do.  I could see a war game that delved into suffering, where you saw more of your comrades dying, maybe your own arm being blown off, seeing children murdered, and less of you gunning down the Nazis and performing heroics.  You aren't the hero.  You're one of the dozens of soldiers that make up one functional whole.  And if you do accomplish anything, you've got to see the full spectrum of your actions.  Who you've killed and who you've saved, if you're lucky enough to even manage that.

People would never go for that, not the ridiculous breed of gamers we have to put up with nowadays (not all of them, but the vast majority of them), but it'd be an interesting realm to explore.  I wouldn't want it to be exploitive, of course, which would be hard to pull off.  But imagine a game where there is no final villain, no saving the world, no heroics, just inevitable failure and obscurity.
I'm kind of rambling, it's very very very late.  But I think the fantasy world of gaming has gotten a bit out of hand, and I'd really like to see something that challenged me with more than just a tough boss fight.


I like the point about Fire Emblem.  I could beat that game in 20 hours or less if I wanted to but I invested too many hours into that game because I feel way too guilty if one of my people died.  I will literally invest a hour or so into a battle and play it out.  Then  just when I am about to win I lose a character and due to that guilty emotion I feel like I have to reset the game and start all over.  The story doesn't really get me that involved with these characters but that is just who I am.  

I find it interesting that many games really don't make you feel loss. DO NOT TELL ME AERITHS DEATH FROM FF7 WAS EPIC LOSS  It is not hard to easily list games that have characters that people feel "connected" with but we rarely have to lose them unless its the end of the game and we are done.

Look at Harry Potter, several phone services had to be opened across the world so children had an outlet where they could talk to counselors about how to deal with the deaths of characters of the 7th book.  I even heard rumors that J.K. Rowling *spoiler from harry potter* wanted to kill Harry but was too afraid that children would do something crazy such as cut themselves or something serious like that if she had done it    

I would like to now sort of split this discussion up.  Does anyone here feel that we are not getting a WIDE variety of emotions from our video games.  I have cried at sad moments in movies but the only times I have cried in video games are usually the endings because it is finally over.  Do we have video games that evoke sadness as a theme of the game?  The only game I have felt sad pretty much throughout the whole game was Shadow of the Collossus.  I know a good friend of mine who is actually a HUGE lover of FPS war games couldn't get through half of that game because he felt too guilty killing those giant Collosi.  Perhaps there is hope . . .
 

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RE:Current WWII Shooters Are Unethical
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2007, 02:33:44 AM »
I'll contribute some more when I can actually construct some thoughts about this, but two things come to mind.

1. The old war games had to "cut corners" in order to make a visually appealing game, which involved such things as disappearing corpses and unrealistic blood effects. That style of game is probably still around even though the graphical horsepower has grown.

I remember playing Rainbow 6 on the N64 (not war i know but still an interesting case) - gunning down a terrorist, turning around, turning back to find the body gone, thinking "did he disappear to get his mates to shoot me?"

I haven't played any of the recent console games so I'm not sure if this generation of games still do it. But i definitely feel that having the corpses remain ingame will certainly go a long way to improving the realism of the game.


2. After seeing war movies and comparing them to war video games, I'm almost tempted to say "leave it to the movies".

The original Call of Duty on PC used the story from Enemy at the Gates for a chapter of the game. Being a conscripted soldier, dumped in Stalingrad without a gun and being ordered into battle. That was probably the best part of storytelling I'd seen from a war game as you didn't have a weapon and the story was told by people around you rather than starting off with a gun and knowing your objective from the start.

And Conker's Bad Fur Day was a parody of Saving Private Ryan (from what I remember, its been a few years).

It has been a tradition that war video games are focused heavily on action with story being used to convey objectives and missions.If you were going to take most of that action and replace it with storytelling or just waiting for battle, you really change the target audience. Some people aren't interested in a history lesson - they just want to shoot things.