Topic: Wii Overtakes Xbox360 In WorldWide Sales

[Ian Sane]

"I have no disagreement that Sony helped Nintendo lead, but even if they didn't screw up I think it would have been a close race because of Nintendo's approach this time around with a low price system."

Would you give Sony the same amount of credit for the Playstation?  They did a lot of things right and also introduced a new audience to gaming.  But how well would they have done if Sega and Nintendo didn't both screw up?  Momentum is a powerful thing in the game industry.  The Playstation 2 defeated the Dreamcast before it came out and it had a really lousy first couple of months.  The fact that was the followup to the market leader helped them.  Every third party was on board with the PS3 and everyone thought that was going to be the winner because of the PS2's success.  If Sony didn't screw up the Wii would have had to fight that momentum just as the Playstation would have to have fought the N64's.  People cut the market leader more slack.  They really just have to be good enough and can afford to make more mistakes than the competition.  I don't think it's a coincedence that since Nintendo started the modern console formula the market leader has fallen after really screwing up.  The Xbox did so many things right and is considered a big success but it never beat the PS2 and I think that's the best the Wii could have done without Sony screwing up.  Nintendo screwed up and Sony took over.  Sony screwed up and Nintendo took back over.  No one has ever beaten a competant market leader yet so I'm wondering if that's even possible.  Hell even Atari's fall was self-inflicted.

[BigJim]

Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Wow, you know you have gone too far when the management gives you warnings about your behavior. I thought his posts were too much but not so bad that the management had to give warnings.

I didn't think they were all that bad either. Big deal if there are alternative opinions.

Which is why I primarily visit platform-neutral forums instead.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

That guy stole my vocabulary.

Badmouthing from a well-known forumer could be seen as sarcasm.

Badmouthing from a brand-new screen name could be seen as thread-arson.

[that Baby guy]

I didn't post in here, did I?  What did I steal?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

READING COMPREHENSION reveals it's nothing to do with you.

[that Baby guy]

Look, I see the word "that."  I see the word "guy."  They both sit there, all pretty and stuff next to each other.  I assume that you made a mistake, and that you meant to put the two together.  Besides, it's about time someone mentioned me in the thread, anyways.  Now the thread tastes like Halloween candy.  Lucky you!

[Kairon]

Haha, are we sure those aren't joke posts?

[Deguello]

It's funny watching Ian recycle the same old arguments over and over.

I think Bill's right.  He's just bitter that when he complains about Nintendo now he seems less like a "concerned Nintendo fan" and more like a "raving lunatic."  He has run out of real world evidence to source his "wisdom" and now can only source his own opinion, which is as easy to discount as having one of your own to counter it.   His supporter no longer say "Ian has a point" or "Ian's probably right."  They too isolate him, mainly because he cannot "turn it off" as evidenced in the bizarre NHL discussion thread which Ian compares the NHL to Nintendo for no reason.  He cannot join in any positive discussion about any game whatsoever, as he routinely does not own any, whether they be cult favorites or mainstream hits.  He doesn't like them.  In fact, he is closer to the "non-gamers" he despises than most of us.

"Ian"

He stands on the sidewalk
A twice-creased sandwich sign
"The end is nigh!" he reveals
Answered only in tire squeals

How lonely he must feel...

Ponder these haiku:

A Batman Image
Texts Of Worthless Filth Appear
Do Not Click Reply

Remember That Time
Ian Spake Of DS Launch?
No, Didn't Think So.

[Infernal Monkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The Playstation 2 defeated the Dreamcast before it came out and it had a really lousy first couple of months.  The fact that was the followup to the market leader helped them.

It was more because Dreamcast was one of the worst consoles ever put out on the market, really. Also I heart Deg.

[Mashiro]

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Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The Playstation 2 defeated the Dreamcast before it came out and it had a really lousy first couple of months.  The fact that was the followup to the market leader helped them.

It was more because Dreamcast was one of the worst consoles ever put out on the market, really. Also I heart Deg.

You are in no way, shape, or form a video game fan. Please leave these forums immediately. Thank you.

. . .

Seriously, WORST console ever put on to the market? Dreamcast had a lot of good games (and a stellar launch, which the PS2 didn't have. . .  in fact it had one of the best launch line ups out of any system in recent memory). I can think of plenty more systems that could be considered the worst ever put out on the market. See: Virtual Boy.

[that Baby guy]

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Originally posted by: Deguello
It's funny watching Ian recycle the same old arguments over and over.

I think Bill's right.  He's just bitter that when he complains about Nintendo now he seems less like a "concerned Nintendo fan" and more like a "raving lunatic."  He has run out of real world evidence to source his "wisdom" and now can only source his own opinion, which is as easy to discount as having one of your own to counter it.   His supporter no longer say "Ian has a point" or "Ian's probably right."  They too isolate him, mainly because he cannot "turn it off" as evidenced in the bizarre NHL discussion thread which Ian compares the NHL to Nintendo for no reason.  He cannot join in any positive discussion about any game whatsoever, as he routinely does not own any, whether they be cult favorites or mainstream hits.  He doesn't like them.  In fact, he is closer to the "non-gamers" he despises than most of us.

"Ian"

He stands on the sidewalk
A twice-creased sandwich sign
"The end is nigh!" he reveals
Answered only in tire squeals

How lonely he must feel...

Ponder these haiku:

A Batman Image
Texts Of Worthless Filth Appear
Do Not Click Reply

Remember That Time
Ian Spake Of DS Launch?
No, Didn't Think So.

Deg, that's stupid.  Really stupid.  Ian's observation is pretty sharp.  Up until this generation, there's never been a change in market leader without the previous leader doing  something, or several things, incredibly wrong.  Maybe the circumstances would have been different this time, we don't know.  However, once again, the market leader made far too many mistakes, and the Wii and even 360, have really been able to capitalize on them.  Would the Wii had been this successful had the PS3 not included Blu-ray, hadn't had the sixaxis, and weren't $600 at launch?  We'll never know.  However, we do know that Sony has made some big mistakes and it has cost them their position in this gen's console race.

I think the Dreamcast is a great reference in this case, too.  It had great graphics, a desirable price point, lots of highly acclaimed games, an open, accessible, and cheap online program, and heavy Japanese developer support, yet all people wanted to talk about from the months after the DC's release to when the PS2 was released was how the powerful PS2 processor could pilot smart bombs.  To me, I'd say Sony had won before the battle started.  Did I buy a DC initially?  No, I decided to wait for the PS2, after all, it was supposed to be much better.  Then, the PS2 launched with no decent games, no online, short supply, and with terrible graphics, too.  Who won?  The PS2.  Why?  Certainly not because the DC wasn't a great competitor at the time.  Sony used their position as market leader to push the PS2.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Could it also be that the Wii became a success because it flipped gaming on its head and did something different that attracted tons of people at E3 and expanded the market? Yeah Sony being dumb helped but to not give Nintendo any credit for the success seems ridiculous. When you have Business Professors, like I did, talking about Wii's marketing strategy and uniqueness, then you know there is something more to its success than PS3 mistakes.

[Plugabugz]

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Originally posted by: thatguy

Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
It's funny watching Ian recycle the same old arguments over and over.

I think Bill's right.  He's just bitter that when he complains about Nintendo now he seems less like a "concerned Nintendo fan" and more like a "raving lunatic."  He has run out of real world evidence to source his "wisdom" and now can only source his own opinion, which is as easy to discount as having one of your own to counter it.   His supporter no longer say "Ian has a point" or "Ian's probably right."  They too isolate him, mainly because he cannot "turn it off" as evidenced in the bizarre NHL discussion thread which Ian compares the NHL to Nintendo for no reason.  He cannot join in any positive discussion about any game whatsoever, as he routinely does not own any, whether they be cult favorites or mainstream hits.  He doesn't like them.  In fact, he is closer to the "non-gamers" he despises than most of us.

"Ian"

He stands on the sidewalk
A twice-creased sandwich sign
"The end is nigh!" he reveals
Answered only in tire squeals

How lonely he must feel...

Ponder these haiku:

A Batman Image
Texts Of Worthless Filth Appear
Do Not Click Reply

Remember That Time
Ian Spake Of DS Launch?
No, Didn't Think So.

Deg, that's stupid.  Really stupid.  Ian's observation is pretty sharp.  Up until this generation, there's never been a change in market leader without the previous leader doing  something, or several things, incredibly wrong.  Maybe the circumstances would have been different this time, we don't know.  However, once again, the market leader made far too many mistakes, and the Wii and even 360, have really been able to capitalize on them.  Would the Wii had been this successful had the PS3 not included Blu-ray, hadn't had the sixaxis, and weren't $600 at launch?  We'll never know.  However, we do know that Sony has made some big mistakes and it has cost them their position in this gen's console race.

I think the Dreamcast is a great reference in this case, too.  It had great graphics, a desirable price point, lots of highly acclaimed games, an open, accessible, and cheap online program, and heavy Japanese developer support, yet all people wanted to talk about from the months after the DC's release to when the PS2 was released was how the powerful PS2 processor could pilot smart bombs.  To me, I'd say Sony had won before the battle started.  Did I buy a DC initially?  No, I decided to wait for the PS2, after all, it was supposed to be much better.  Then, the PS2 launched with no decent games, no online, short supply, and with terrible graphics, too.  Who won?  The PS2.  Why?  Certainly not because the DC wasn't a great competitor at the time.  Sony used their position as market leader to push the PS2.

Deg and Ian are ying and yang. The two have an eternal bond none of us will understand.

Sony merely made the 3 a gamble but at the wrong market. They assumed the brand would justify the price to gamers, while at the same time to potential blu-rayers be considered a cheap buy. Consumers are savvy people collectively, and will only tolerate so much. Push it too much as the 3 did and it became unreasonable. People dont want to spend £425/$800odd on a 3 when we have a mortgage and £100/month on public transport right? It's nicely in the zone of being a price you pay towards investing into something (repair bills for car, insurance, mortgage etc) and not for the entertainment factor.  

[Kairon]

Hey, I love countering Ian's posts as much as anyone, but I'm actually getting tired of this Deguello vs. Ian thing. I don't think Ian is hurting anyone on this board, we can think for ourselves you know.

But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, I love countering Ian's posts as much as anyone, but I'm actually getting tired of this Deguello vs. Ian thing. I don't think Ian is hurting anyone on this board, we can think for ourselves you know.

But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.

You are hurting me all the time Kairon! You should be BANNED.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, I love countering Ian's posts as much as anyone, but I'm actually getting tired of this Deguello vs. Ian thing. I don't think Ian is hurting anyone on this board, we can think for ourselves you know.

But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.

You are hurting me all the time Kairon! You should be BANNED.

This revenge for you getting the HAWTNESS thread locked!

[Mashiro]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, I love countering Ian's posts as much as anyone, but I'm actually getting tired of this Deguello vs. Ian thing. I don't think Ian is hurting anyone on this board, we can think for ourselves you know.

But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.

You are hurting me all the time Kairon! You should be BANNED.

This revenge for you getting the HAWTNESS thread locked!

Agreed =P

[Deguello]

Kairon, I'd be willing to bet Ian has complete utter contempt for you because you enjoy non-games and embrace non-gamers.  You are therefore encouraging Nintendo to go down that path instead of catering specifically to him.

And this whole "if quantity X were different, then PS3 would be outselling Wii" argument is tired and old.  If the PS3 were $300, it wouldn't have Next-Gen-level graphics or a Blu-Ray drive or the Cell inside.  IT would be a different ballgame, but not necessarily one that would favor Sony.  And the Dreamcast is a horrible reference point.  the Dreamcast sold 11 million consoles in its 2-year lifetime, almost 30% after it had been officially discontinued and prices dropped to $50.  The Wii has already passed that and it hasn't even been out a year.  And this line..

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Then, the PS2 launched with no decent games, no online, short supply, and with terrible graphics, too. Who won? The PS2.

What are you trying to PROVE here?  That a graphically inferior console can somehow triumph over superior ones?

To say the Wii is ONLY successful because of Sony's mistakes is laughable.  How can the Wii be 100% tilted towards non-gamers and children, AND at the same time be stealing marketshare from the HARDCORE BEEFY people who would buy PS3's?  This just doesn't compute, because the premises contradict.  You are going to have to give one of them up to keep arguing.  Either the Wii has appealed to the non-gaming masses (as well as hardcores) and created a new market, in which case PS3's mistakes mean nothing, or PS3's mistakes DID lead to Wii dominance, which means the Wii has attracted the manly hardcore beefy-types and is therefore not a console filled with non-gamers and soccer moms.

Decisions, decisions.  

[IceCold]

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To say the Wii is ONLY successful because of Sony's mistakes is laughable. How can the Wii be 100% tilted towards non-gamers and children, AND at the same time be stealing marketshare from the HARDCORE BEEFY people who would buy PS3's? This just doesn't compute, because the premises contradict. You are going to have to give one of them up to keep arguing. Either the Wii has appealed to the non-gaming masses (as well as hardcores) and created a new market, in which case PS3's mistakes mean nothing, or PS3's mistakes DID lead to Wii dominance, which means the Wii has attracted the manly hardcore beefy-types and is therefore not a console filled with non-gamers and soccer moms.

Thank you, Deg.. It's convenient how so many people skim over this glaring contradiction..

I personally believe that while the PS3's general mishaps have helped the Wii somewhat, it would have succeeded anyway. Nintendo did the most brilliant thing seen in the games industry for years - they differentiated their product so much that the console is nearly oblivious to happenings to the "competitors". Ian, you have to realise that if Nintendo put out a 360 or PS3 clone with nothing unique, it would have been killed. Even with Sony screwing up, that console would never have stood a chance. The Wii was really the only way Nintendo could gain back marketshare.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
Kairon, I'd be willing to bet Ian has complete utter contempt for you because you enjoy non-games and embrace non-gamers.  You are therefore encouraging Nintendo to go down that path instead of catering specifically to him.

He can have all the contempt for me he wants! I'm right.

Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
Nintendo did the most brilliant thing seen in the games industry for years - they differentiated their product so much that the console is nearly oblivious to happenings to the "competitors". Ian, you have to realise that if Nintendo put out a 360 or PS3 clone with nothing unique, it would have been killed. Even with Sony screwing up, that console would never have stood a chance. The Wii was really the only way Nintendo could gain back marketshare.

I know I shouldn't crow too loudly, but the Wii basically vindicates a lot of my fanboi rants from years ago when I would rail away that the last thing Nintendo should do is go toe-to-toe with mega consumer-electronics-computer corporations like Sony or MS. I would always argue that Nintendo would need to find it's own way to do things instead of just copying the ways that Sony and Microsoft approached gaming.

After all, this is Nintendo. And there IS a difference.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
To say the Wii is ONLY successful because of Sony's mistakes is laughable.  How can the Wii be 100% tilted towards non-gamers and children, AND at the same time be stealing marketshare from the HARDCORE BEEFY people who would buy PS3's?  This just doesn't compute, because the premises contradict.  You are going to have to give one of them up to keep arguing.  Either the Wii has appealed to the non-gaming masses (as well as hardcores) and created a new market, in which case PS3's mistakes mean nothing, or PS3's mistakes DID lead to Wii dominance, which means the Wii has attracted the manly hardcore beefy-types and is therefore not a console filled with non-gamers and soccer moms.

Ah, but where does the XBox 360 fit into this? It may be the XBox360 that's siphoning away the Playstation's core, not the Wii.

[IceCold]

With only 9 million (FT estimate) systems sold in nearly two years? I doubt it.

EDIT: And by the way, I salute you for your foresight on Nintendo needing to differentiate themselves. I started to really believe it during the HD debate around E3 2005, but you may have been advocating it before then even..

[KDR_11k]

I wouldn't say that the Wii would necessarily be in the lead if the PS3 didn't screw up badly. While the Wii does sell to both kinds of gamers we only know the sum of both, not how much each kind contributes. For all we know the Wii could have 2 million nongamers and 7 million hardcores.

Also, for all we know store clerks could have pushed PS3s on non-gamers if the system wasn't so freaking overpriced.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k

Also, for all we know store clerks could have pushed PS3s on non-gamers if the system wasn't so freaking overpriced.

Along with a copy of, um Ninja Gaiden Sigma?  

[KDR_11k]

Yeah. You know those Gamestop employees.