Topic: Third Party character speculation and analysis thread

[NWR_pap64]

With Brawl being the first SSB game to feature a third party character in the roster (Solid Snake) the decision opened up a Pandora's box of speculation, rumors, anticipation and wishful thinking. Sakurai confirmed that there could be 2 or 3 more third party characters along with Solid Snake. Those characters must have appeared at least once on a Nintendo console. This means that the third party company must have a close relationship with Nintendo before any of their characters can appear in the game.

So with this let's speculate which third party characters could appear in the game and if they are worthy of representation.

Here are the third party companies that have supported Nintendo before along with the characters that could be featured in Brawl, the first being the most likely. The list also features possible third party characters that could be assist trophies.

Let's start with...

Sega
Sonic the Hedgehog: As I already mentioned in the other character thread the minute Solid Snake appeared on the first E3 trailer the first name that was spoken afterwards was Sonic. It would the fanboys' ultimate dream come true and a big event to hype. Even if the reps have come out and said that they have no plans on including Sonic in the game its more than likely that they ARE working on it as we speak as this would be one big marketing push towards Nintendo and Sega, perhaps even more than Mario and Sonic at the Olympics. It would be extremely idiotic of them to dismiss the potential and breaking the hearts of MANY fans.

Other characters:
Nights (Nights Journey of Dreams)
Ai Ai (Super Monkey Ball)

Assist trophy characters:
Tails
Knuckles

Square-Enix
Moogle: Even if the Chocobos have been around longer than the Moogles they have just as much personality, if not more, than the Chocobos.

Other characters:
Chocobo
Black Mage
White Mage
Red Mage
Slime (Dragon Quest)
Main hero (Dragon Quest)
Sora (Kingdom Hearts)

Assist trophy characters:
Cactuar
Shiva
Ifrit
Carbunkle
Bahamut
Slime (Dragon Quest)

Hudson Soft
Bomberman: Considering that the SSB series has always been a mascot fighter its more than likely that third parties will submit their well known mascots and Bomberman just happens to be their main man!

Other characters:
Master Higgins (Adventure Island)
Bonk

Assist trophy characters:
...Any enemy from Bomberman?? (Help me out here!)

Capcom
Megaman: Capcom's Megaman is perhaps the most overqualified character in the list. 7 of his classic games are on the Nintendo platforms. His spin off games were first featured on the Nintendo consoles. Hell, in a recent poll asking which console should Megaman appear in the Wii won by a landslide! So if there's one character in Capcom's class that deserves a spot Megaman is it!

Other characters:
Leon (Resident Evil 4)
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Viewtiful Joe
Ryu (Street Fighter)
Sir Arthur (Ghost and Ghouls/Ghoblins)

Assist trophies:
Roll (Megaman)
Zero (Megaman)
Zombie (Resident Evil)
Tron Bonne (Megaman)
Rush (Megaman)

Namco/Bandai (Banco)
Pac-Man: Once again, mascot rule applies here. Pac-Man is Namco's official mascot and if they were to choose Pac-Man would be it. Not to mention he has already crossed paths with Nintendo's Mario (Charles Martinet was the announcer for Pac-Man versus and Pac-Man was a selectable character in the Mario Kart arcade game).

Other characters:
The guy from Disaster (this is based on the fact that Nintendo now owns Monolith Soft, but I may be wrong)
Lloyd Irving (Tales of Symphonia)
Taki (Soul Calibur)

Assist Trophy characters:
Ghosts (Pac-Man)
Ms. Pac-Man

Ubisoft
Before I continue with the characters I want to tell you a little backstory. Last year a rumor surfaced saying that Ubisoft had submitted 4 characters to appear in Brawl. While the rumor was never confirmed or denied the possibility was likely. Ubisoft was the first third party to support Nintendo and the Wii since day one and that has paid off in the biggest way possible. Not to mention that the Rabbids are a big phenomenon right now.

This is still a rumor that is likely BS, but with SSB you never know what to expect.

Now onto the characters!

Rayman: You know the drill. Ubi's main man, even though lately he has taken a backseat to the Rabbids he was the first character to be submitted for approval. It could happen since all of his games have appeared on the Nintendo consoles and one of them is a massive Nintendo exclusive hit (Raving Rabbids).

Other characters:
Jade (Beyond Good and Evil)
The Prince (Prince of Persia)
Sam Fisher (Splinter Cell)
Rabbid (Raving Rabbids)

Assist trophy characters:
Globox (Rayman)
Rabbid (Raving Rabbids)

So let's sum this up. The most likely candidates to represent third parties in Brawl are:
Sonic
Moogle
Pac-Man
Rayman
Bomberman
Megaman

If its true that Nintendo is considering 2 or 3 more characters that means some of these will not make it, so the top 3 would be...
Sonic
Moogle
Megaman

And there you have it! Since I am very absent minded I may have forgotten other characters and companies.  Feel free to add in anyone I may have missed. Remember that this is all speculation so I may be wrong.

Enjoy!

[Arbok]

I really don't think we will see assist trophies from third party games, to be honest.

In terms of speculation, I agree that Sonic and a Moogle seem the most likely from those two companies, and I feel they are probably the most likely to show up overall.

[Bill Aurion]

I don't think we'll see ATs from third party games either, but you never know...I personally see this...

Sonic (Sega)
Chocobo (Squenix) (Or possibly Chrono, wouldn't that be something?)
Mega Man (Capcom)

[UERD]

I agree, most likely a Sega and a Square-Enix character. If S-E does get a character, though, will it be a generic one?

On a tangential note, do you think that SSBB might be used as a launching pad for a new game? I know that Nintendo probably didn't have a master plan to bring Fire Emblem to North America, but the popularity of those characters in SSBM certainly helped convince Nintendo to do it. Do you think something like that, maybe a collaboration between Nintendo and a friendly third party, might happen?

[Bill Aurion]

They are already doing it...You just know Kid Icarus is coming...

[nickmitch]

Why would Pac-Man make a good character? I just don't see it happening, nor would I want it to. But, if it did, I'd get over it.
As for Squenix putting in a generic character, what's more generic than Pokemon Trainer? Besides, it'd be better promotion for them to include a DQ character.
I'd love it if VJ was in it. That'd be great. But hasn't Capcom put that franchise on hold for a while?

[Luigi Dude]

The moment Snake was shown Sonic was pretty much 100% confirmed right there.

I expect the next one to be a Square-Enix character, which one I'm not sure.  I think the most likely would be one of the generic Final Fantasy character that appeared in Mario Hoops for the DS.  They're well known by gamers and since they've already been in a Mario game that does increase the chance of one of them being in Smash Bros.  

Of course I wouldn't count Sora out yet though since Chain of Memories sold quite well on the GBA and the Kingdom Hearts series is very popular.  If it's not someone related to Final Fantasy in Brawl then my money on Sora being the Square-Enix character instead.

[mantidor]

I want simon belmont, his chances are small but he still deserves the spot more than 99% of people's suggestions.

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
Why would Pac-Man make a good character? I just don't see it happening, nor would I want it to. But, if it did, I'd get over it.

Go back to the first post and read what I said regarding mascot characters. If third parties are only allowed to have ONE character to represent the entire company then its more than likely they will choose their mascot, and Namco's mascot happens to be Pac-Man. So if Nintendo invites Namco to Brawl then they will go with Pac-Man.

That's how logic works.

[Spak-Spang]

Here are my predictions on characters I both would want to see and expect to see.

Snake= 100%
Sonic=  90%
Mega Man= 75%
Bomber Man= 50%
Simon Belmont= 30%
Square Final Fantasy character (Mage most likely)= 25%
Rabbid= 10%
Pac-Man =5%

I dunno about any others...those are just ones I want to see.

[Dasmos]

Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
So let's sum this up. The most likely candidates to represent third parties in Brawl are:
Sonic
Moogle
Pac-Man
Rayman
Bomberman
Megaman

You mean your most likely candidates. I don't even know what a moogle is.

I also don't know why Zero is on your assist trophies list he's (IMO) much more suited for Smash Brothers.

[Arbok]

Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
I also don't know why Zero is on your assist trophies list he's (IMO) much more suited for Smash Brothers.

I would agree... but I would say it's pretty unlikely that he would be playable. First off, I just couldn't see him being picked over Megaman, and I also doubt there will be two characters from the same third party franchise in the game either. Those two elements combined make it hard for me to see Zero making the "cut".

As for Pac-Man, he does represent Namco more than other characters... but I just find him so boring and unappealing. I do feel he has a good chance of showing up, but would really rather the slot went to someone more interesting.

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos

Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
So let's sum this up. The most likely candidates to represent third parties in Brawl are:
Sonic
Moogle
Pac-Man
Rayman
Bomberman
Megaman

You mean your most likely candidates. I don't even know what a moogle is.

I also don't know why Zero is on your assist trophies list he's (IMO) much more suited for Smash Brothers.

*Shakes head

This is a Moogle, one of Square's many mascots.

I mentioned those characters because, like I said, they are the companies' mascots. If they can submit only ONE character to represent the whole company you can bet ANYTHING that they will go with their mascots.

Of course, I may be mistaken and the companies may think differently, but if you have a character that represents  everything good about your product why not use him or her as much as possible?

Hell, if Nintendo was asked to contribute a character to a third party mascot fighter they would go with either Link or Mario (technically, that already happened with Soul Calibur 2).

And Arbok, I agree that Pac-Man is a bland character, but considering he already has cross over history with Mario and he is Namco's main mascot he has a higher chance of appearing in the game than any of the other Namco characters.
 

[JonLeung]

I think Pac-Man is more iconic, than, say, Solid Snake.

I remember Hideo Kojima's statement about Metal Gear never being on a Nintendo platform *coughMetalGear/Snake'sRevenge/GhostBabel/TwinSnakescough* which was only a few years ago yet before Twin Snakes, of course, but if it's true that he begged for Snake to be in SSB:M, well, I still think it's weird.  Had he not asked, I would've thought someone more classic Konami and Nintendoish would be someone like Simon Belmont, what with his NES/Game Boy/Super NES adventures and Captain N appearance (even if that was DiC, really).    I guess Snake is more commonly popular these days, which would boost sales better than if they were going for the Castlevania fan, however, since the MGS games are coming to the PSP and PS3, it doesn't feel like a good fit.

I guess it's too late for that, though.

I think since Konami is in, then Capcom (with Mega Man) should be in.  Those two were the first two third parties I recognized in the NES days that are still around and have lengthy series.

Keep your Solid Snake, stick in Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man, and maybe if Square-Enix ought to be there, then a moogle (or (a) Mog, whatever) and call it quits.

[nickmitch]

Quote
Originally posted by: pap64

Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
Why would Pac-Man make a good character? I just don't see it happening, nor would I want it to. But, if it did, I'd get over it.

Go back to the first post and read what I said regarding mascot characters. If third parties are only allowed to have ONE character to represent the entire company then its more than likely they will choose their mascot, and Namco's mascot happens to be Pac-Man. So if Nintendo invites Namco to Brawl then they will go with Pac-Man.

That's how logic works.

I still say that Pac-Man looks too silly for Brawl.

[UERD]

Quote
If third parties are only allowed to have ONE character to represent the entire company then its more than likely they will choose their mascot

Is this even how it actually works, Nintendo asking a 3rd-party to choose a character to represent their company? Snake's inclusion didn't have anything to do with that sort of scenario.

Quote
I still say that Pac-Man looks too silly for Brawl.

Yeah, there's a point at which the line has to be drawn. What attacks are you going to give him? How the heck are you going to fit him into the story mode? How is he not going to distract from everything else? etc. I don't care what the general opinion is, but Nintendo should not be cramming new characters into the game unless there the character can be differentiated from a gameplay perspective, and unless it can be done without ruining the general atmosphere of the game.

[Khushrenada]

Quote
Originally posted by: pap64

Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos

Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
So let's sum this up. The most likely candidates to represent third parties in Brawl are:
Sonic
Moogle
Pac-Man
Rayman
Bomberman
Megaman

You mean your most likely candidates. I don't even know what a moogle is.

I also don't know why Zero is on your assist trophies list he's (IMO) much more suited for Smash Brothers.

*Shakes head

This is a Moogle, one of Square's many mascots.

I mentioned those characters because, like I said, they are the companies' mascots. If they can submit only ONE character to represent the whole company you can bet ANYTHING that they will go with their mascots.

Of course, I may be mistaken and the companies may think differently, but if you have a character that represents  everything good about your product why not use him or her as much as possible?

Hell, if Nintendo was asked to contribute a character to a third party mascot fighter they would go with either Link or Mario (technically, that already happened with Soul Calibur 2).

And Arbok, I agree that Pac-Man is a bland character, but considering he already has cross over history with Mario and he is Namco's main mascot he has a higher chance of appearing in the game than any of the other Namco characters.

Eh, I only learned what a moogle was a few years ago when Square made Mario Basketball and was talking about the moogle mail or something for Final Fantasy III DS. However, you mentioned another character I think would be more interesting. Slime form Dragon Quest. That's a character I've known about and recognized for years even though I've never even played Dragon Quest before. That's iconic.

Not to mention Dragon Quest is bigger than Final Fantasy in Japan and Nintendo has been recieving more love with Dragon Quest than Final Fantasy. Putting in a Dragon Quest character may even help the series grow more in North America since I don't think it does as well here. Plus, Rocket Slime had his own DS game awhile ago, so you think they'd be able to come up with some moves for such a character.

[Arbok]

Quote
Originally posted by: Khushrenada
Eh, I only learned what a moogle was a few years ago when Square made Mario Basketball and was talking about the moogle mail or something for Final Fantasy III DS. However, you mentioned another character I think would be more interesting. Slime form Dragon Quest. That's a character I've known about and recognized for years even though I've never even played Dragon Quest before. That's iconic.

I'm just the opposite. I didn't know what a Slime was until the DS game came out, while I have been very familiar with Moogles ever since Final Fantasy 6.

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: UERD

Quote
If third parties are only allowed to have ONE character to represent the entire company then its more than likely they will choose their mascot

Is this even how it actually works, Nintendo asking a 3rd-party to choose a character to represent their company? Snake's inclusion didn't have anything to do with that sort of scenario.

Quote
I still say that Pac-Man looks too silly for Brawl.

Yeah, there's a point at which the line has to be drawn. What attacks are you going to give him? How the heck are you going to fit him into the story mode? How is he not going to distract from everything else? etc. I don't care what the general opinion is, but Nintendo should not be cramming new characters into the game unless there the character can be differentiated from a gameplay perspective, and unless it can be done without ruining the general atmosphere of the game.

I don't know how Nintendo is working the third party aspect of Brawl. I'm guessing its a mix of Nintendo asking them and the third parties or developers asking Nintendo (which is what happened with Snake). Whatever they do A LOT of talks and meetings are likely to happen before they make a decision.

As for Pac-Man, dude, this is Smash Bros. we are talking about. First of all, they have given new and original move sets to characters who you don't even control directly (like Fox and Captain Falcon) so I'm sure they can come up with a move or two for Pac. Just look at the recently unveiled Pokemon Trainer character. Second, we are talking about a game who has fantasy characters and realistic characters against cartoony characters and even "WTF" characters. So why are you WORRIED that Pac-Man is going to CLASH in a SSB game?

In short I don't understand your point. This is SSB we are talking about,  a game that's all about different characters that clash against each other so I don't know how Pac-Man would ruin that. We already have a living, breathing, morphing pink marshmallow in Kirby so why not a giant, yellow ball?

Seriously, too silly? We are talking about a game whose fans want TINGLE to be a playable character...

Oh and Khush, Final Fantasy VI and VII are the most famous and popular FF games in the US and both heavily feature moogles. I'm sure at least half the gaming population know and recognize the moogles.

However, Square is an unique case. They have way too many mascot characters to choose from, counting the Enix side of thing. Both sides of the company also have a great relationship with Nintendo, so its going to be hard which side gets represented in Brawl.  

[nickmitch]

People only want Tingle in the game so they can hurt him. Now, some characters in Smash can look realistic, and some can look cute. But, Pac-Man is silly. He's just silly. He's a sphere with arms and legs coming out of it. He's just a silly looking character. Captain Falcon was at least buff. It doesn't look weird to see him fighting. The pokemon are made for fighting, so it's natural for them. Then, there's Pac-Man. Kirby is cute. Hell, he's adorable, one of the most cuddly things I've ever seen. But, he doesn't look silly.

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
People only want Tingle in the game so they can hurt him. Now, some characters in Smash can look realistic, and some can look cute. But, Pac-Man is silly. He's just silly. He's a sphere with arms and legs coming out of it. He's just a silly looking character. Captain Falcon was at least buff. It doesn't look weird to see him fighting. The pokemon are made for fighting, so it's natural for them. Then, there's Pac-Man. Kirby is cute. Hell, he's adorable, one of the most cuddly things I've ever seen. But, he doesn't look silly.

Again, you are talking about a game who started out as a silly parody of fighting games. In fact, a more understandable worry is that Pac-Man is not unique enough to be featured in Brawl.

The SSB series has been built on the silly and weird, sometimes even surreal. No matter how epic and "serious" they are trying to be in the end the whole thing is just a weird concept. Had we been talking about another game then I would understand the concern, but this is SSB, a game that doesn't take itself seriously even when it does.

[nickmitch]

Surreal and silly are two different things.

[Adrock]

Sonic is already in the game. There is no speculation. He's in.

If a Square-Enix character makes it, I'd be very, VERY surprised if it wasn't Cloud. If Nintendo wants to further expand the audience of this game, they'll include characters that are instantly recognizable to most gamers.

In no particular order, my list of hopefuls (not counting Sonic because he'll probably be on the cover):
1. Belmont - I'd like to see different Belmonts as costumes
2. Nights (even though it can fly and I don't know how that'd work)
3. Cloud
4. Mega Man
5. Ryu (Street Fighter)
6. Nightmare (Soulcalibur)

[UERD]

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If a Square-Enix character makes it, I'd be very, VERY surprised if it wasn't Cloud. If Nintendo wants to further expand the audience of this game, they'll include characters that are instantly recognizable to most gamers.

The only way I could see Cloud making it in is if S-E is planning on making a FF7-related property for a Nintendo console (FF7 remake on the DS, anyone? ). The guy already said that only characters who have appeared on Nintendo consoles would be eligible, although admittedly nothing they've said has really been final or definitive so far (are we getting online play, or not?). Although, to be honest, I would really like to see Link beating up on Cloud beating up on Sonic. Wouldn't that be surreal.

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but this is SSB, a game that doesn't take itself seriously even when it does.

Yeah, Kirby was silly, but it was funny silly because they were all Nintendo characters, and it was like some huge inside joke. Pac-Man is only peripherally related to Nintendo- he's probably been a character on more non-Nintendo consoles and machines. (As I state above,) I only expect them to put in characters that are intimately related to Nintendo IPs, unless there is a really compelling reason. (And for Snake, having his creator beg for his character to be included twice is pretty compelling.)  

[Spak-Spang]

Here is a question...what 3rd parties do you believe even have a chance to have a character in Brawl.  Konami would have been my last guess...but they are the only truly confirmed.

I would have speculated on:

Hudson Soft
Capcom
Sega

As the big definite three.  Then in no particular order I would have then guessed:

Square-Enix
Konami

Then the no chances would have been like:

EA
Ubisoft
ect

But Konami is the only 100% and Sega is probably up there.  I do believe we are talking iconic characters or mascots only.  To Konami Snake is their modern icon character, even though he isn't really a mascot.  For Hudson and Capcom their mascots and iconic characters are still Mega Man and Bomber Man, and isn't Mega Man celebrating a big anniversary this year?  If so I could see Nintendo going to them and offering Mega Man in Brawl as an "anniversary gift."