Author Topic: Wii Zapper: how it might actually be good (Read 9372 times)

bubicus · « **on:** July 11, 2007, 06:27:03 PM »

While listening to Windy ranting about the Wii Zapper in podcast #60, I started thinking: even though the Zapper shell doesn't add anything, hardware-wise, doesn't it allow something knew, software-wise?

If a programmer KNEW that the remote and the nunchuk were an exact distance from each other (and with the Zapper shell, the programmer would), and assuming that the remote and the nunchuk's accelerometers have superfine resolution, he or she could write code that would compare the differences between the two accelerometer motions in three dimensions. Because of that, it should be possible to allow aiming with a gunsight, just like with a light gun, rather than just using a cursor on the screen. All that would be required is an initial calibration.

Kairon · « **Reply #1 on:** July 11, 2007, 06:43:01 PM »

There's no need to do that. As long as you stay in the same position in the room, you can more or less use what the Super scope did: calibrate so it knows what the "center" looks like and then just compare everything (tilt anhd distance) to that center data.

They've already said that Ghost Squad will have a calibration option so you can play using the sights, and no cursor.

Adrock · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2007, 06:58:33 PM »

It's still $20.

I love how there was just utter silence when Reggie revealed the price during the press conference. And I thought the nunchuck at $20 was steep.

If I get it free with Umbrella Chronicles, I'll take it (who doesn't like free stuff), same with the "steering wheel" with Mario Kart. Otherwise, get out of my face.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2007, 07:01:19 PM »

The Zapper should give me a nice workout when i play commando in the living room.

BlkPaladin · « **Reply #4 on:** July 11, 2007, 07:16:51 PM »

Well isn't supposed packed in with a game Nintendo made for it. (Probally the rumored update on Duck Hunt.)

ThePerm · « **Reply #5 on:** July 11, 2007, 07:44:30 PM »

ill make mine outta wood

Kairon · « **Reply #6 on:** July 11, 2007, 07:55:18 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: BlkPaladin
Well isn't supposed packed in with a game Nintendo made for it. (Probally the rumored update on Duck Hunt.)

No matter how much you people complain and moan, you know you'd pay $20 for Duck Hunt.

The Traveller · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2007, 07:58:57 PM »

It doesnt look as cool as the Zapper they showed b4

Adrock · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2007, 08:04:45 PM »

I'd gladly pay $20 for Duck Hunt (which would most likely feature a few more mini-games, further increasing my frothing demand for the game). However, I would NEVER pay $20 just for some plastic to hold the nunchuck/Wii remote.

Kairon · « **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2007, 08:13:39 PM »

That's why Duck Hunt will be packed in with it!

EasyCure · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2007, 08:38:47 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: The Traveller
It doesnt look as cool as the Zapper they showed b4

I only liked the prototype they showed before a realized how tiny it was.

At first it looked all bad@ss and resembled a sawed off shot gun. Then i saw the pictures of it next to the wiimote and classic controller and it looked small and stubby.

This new design reminds me of RE4's Red9 w/ the stock attached. Now that's bad@ss.

Kairon · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2007, 08:49:11 PM »

There's a TON of different third party solutions out there. I wonder which will ultimately end up the best?

Dirk Temporo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2007, 08:52:48 PM »

The zapper makes me angry because my gun holding habits want to hold the back with my right hand, but my game-playing habits want to hold it with my left hand (analog stick) and due to this, I'll never be comfortable.

jakeOSX · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2007, 12:27:28 AM »

I agree with the way to hold it. the gun i envisioned, while more complicated, involved a trigger at real gun location, and the 'chuck up front so you could use the analogue stick with your off hand (as you would normally)

but, i agree, $20 for duck hunt? i'm there.

bubicus · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2007, 05:27:44 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
There's no need to do that. As long as you stay in the same position in the room, you can more or less use what the Super scope did: calibrate so it knows what the "center" looks like and then just compare everything (tilt anhd distance) to that center data.

They've already said that Ghost Squad will have a calibration option so you can play using the sights, and no cursor.

No, the Super Scope didn't work in the same way as the system I described. The Super Scope would detect the moment that the trigger was pulled and compare it to the current position of a CRT's light projection on the screen. That method worked fine for old systems because nobody owned anything but CRTs back then, but it won't work on modern televisions like LCDs or plasmas because they display entire frames at once. Furthermore, the Super Scope used an optical detector, but neither the remote nor nunchuk have optical detectors, so there is nothing visual for them to measure. The remote has an infrared sensor, but on its own, its measurement resolution is not fine enough to allow for sight aiming.

The system I described requires no optical sensors. All it requires is an initial calibration of the zapper by measuring the initial position and tilt of the remote and the nunchuk. After that, everything can be measured from those measurements, assuming the measurement resolution is fine enough. If the positional measurements and the infrared measurements are combined, I'm sure sight aiming would be possible. Perhaps that is what Ghost Squad does when using the zapper. I'm pretty sure Ghost Squad does not allow for sight aiming when using only the remote.

Requiem · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2007, 06:30:31 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
The zapper makes me angry because my gun holding habits want to hold the back with my right hand, but my game-playing habits want to hold it with my left hand (analog stick) and due to this, I'll never be comfortable.

Agreed. But I'd have no qualms if they just swap button functions. Like if the made "Z" fire, and then made the trigger secondary fire.

Kairon · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2007, 10:42:15 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: bubicus
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
There's no need to do that. As long as you stay in the same position in the room, you can more or less use what the Super scope did: calibrate so it knows what the "center" looks like and then just compare everything (tilt anhd distance) to that center data.

They've already said that Ghost Squad will have a calibration option so you can play using the sights, and no cursor.

No, the Super Scope didn't work in the same way as the system I described. The Super Scope would detect the moment that the trigger was pulled and compare it to the current position of a CRT's light projection on the screen. That method worked fine for old systems because nobody owned anything but CRTs back then, but it won't work on modern televisions like LCDs or plasmas because they display entire frames at once. Furthermore, the Super Scope used an optical detector, but neither the remote nor nunchuk have optical detectors, so there is nothing visual for them to measure. The remote has an infrared sensor, but on its own, its measurement resolution is not fine enough to allow for sight aiming.

The system I described requires no optical sensors. All it requires is an initial calibration of the zapper by measuring the initial position and tilt of the remote and the nunchuk. After that, everything can be measured from those measurements, assuming the measurement resolution is fine enough. If the positional measurements and the infrared measurements are combined, I'm sure sight aiming would be possible. Perhaps that is what Ghost Squad does when using the zapper. I'm pretty sure Ghost Squad does not allow for sight aiming when using only the remote.

Ah! So that's how it worked! *enlightened*

So you're saying that the wiimote's IR camera doesn't have the resolution necessary to replicate the Super Scope's optical detector?

bubicus · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2007, 12:10:37 PM »

I haven't programmed with the remote's IR sensor myself, but I would assume that its resolution wasn't good enough for sight aiming, since no game company has implemented it yet (despite ample opportunity). Or maybe it's just because the shape of the remote doesn't lend itself well to sight aiming? Honestly, I don't know. I wish I was more familiar with Wii development. Maybe I'll get more acquainted with the system once the WiiWare dev kits are more readily available.

Smoke39 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2007, 04:55:50 PM »

It has nothing to do with the pointer's resolution. The smoothness of motion when using the pointer proves that it can determine it's position quite precisely. The only limitation is that the information on its position is relative to the sensor bar and has no information on the screen itself. This could theoretically be overcome by having the user point at the corners of the screen so the game can determine where the edges of the screen are relative to the sensor bar. Then it would just perform some scaling and translation on the positional information received from the remote to get the position pointed to on the screen.

Using the accelerometers probably wouldn't work for two reasons. For one, I think I've heard that the accelerometers can't detect acceleration beyond a certain threshold that people can easily pass. That is, the maximum acceleration is capped. So if you were to adjust your aim too quickly, the game would register a lesser motion. It might even start moving in the opposite direction when you bring the remote to a stop, if you come to a stop gradually enough to be below the cap.

The second is that even without that limitation, errors are likely to accumulate over time. To calculate the remote's velocity, you have to keep incrementing it by the acceleration data from the controller. That acceleration data isn't exact, since it's been digitized (plus it's over discrete time intervals). The error in acceleration data in each frame is likely pretty small, but as you keep adding them up after thousands of frames it could start to get pretty noticable.

Kairon · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2007, 10:09:06 PM »

Wait a second Smoke39. The SuperScope required calibration, how does that make it different from requiring calibration for the wiimote? It can be done... it HAS been done!

that Baby guy · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2007, 10:14:44 PM »

Bubicus, are you sure? I recall that my Super Scope had a box I had to place on top of the TV. What was that box for?

Kairon · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2007, 10:18:38 PM »

Wireless IR transmission of data. The Super Scope didn't have Bluetooth. BUT, the Superscope did have to be calibrated. What would make that any different from the wiimote?

Ceric · « **Reply #22 on:** July 14, 2007, 02:16:09 AM »

I have to say Wii Zapper is made of phail with no internet. A dissappointment and a good sign, with the smaller signs, that the overall quality standard of Nintendo is starting to drop in consistancy. Which is only a bad thing. Any testing outside of developement team would have realized most of the problems and that people did not believe the price for the zapper by itself was worth it. Looking at the third party peripherals on the market and peoples opinions about those would have shown that as well. Also I thought Nintendo had in place a way for 3rd parties to make actually peripherals like a a Nunchuk substitute.

In the end I expected more then a plastic shell expecially for the price. If plastic shells is all Nintendo will give us in Wiimote peripherals from here on out they can keep all of them and help the planet.

(The balance board is independent of the Wiimore correct?)

Chozo Ghost · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2007, 04:48:13 AM »

I wonder if they could make a game that made use of BOTH the zapper and the body board. With that, you could be on some floating platform flying around and shooting at people.

Just like the Green Goblin.... think about it. That would be kinda awesome.

Requiem · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2007, 04:57:55 AM »

Already did

.

Check the WiiBoard thread.

News:

Author Topic: Wii Zapper: how it might actually be good (Read 9372 times)