Topic: As much as it pains me....

[Ian Sane]

This thread seems like non-gamers complaining that Nintendo makes too many of those "real games".  What the hell?  Nintendo is already catering to these needs.  Go play Warioware and Brain Age.

Me?  I'm like the opposite.  As I have less time to play games I can see myself eventually getting to the point where Zelda and Metroid are ALL I ever play.  That's like a game a year or at worst every two years which is fine for someone with a full time job and other interests.  Someday I'll have a wife and kids too so that one Zelda game for the whole year will be nice.

There are long-winded games that I get bored of but they aren't Zelda and Metroid.  They're RPGs that pad the game with filler like level grinding.  In Zelda I'm usually doing something instead of going through the motions to get to parts where I actually progress in the game again.

I haven't beaten Twilight Princess yet.  I've beaten the last normal dungeon and just have to go after the last boss now.  Often with games like this I lose interest at this point because there isn't really anything left to do.  I've explored the whole world and have all the items and abilities and all that's left is to see the ending.  With Zelda and Metroid discovering the world is what I'm interested in and once it's just the boss that's left I don't have anything left I'm really interested in.  I'll get around to it one day though just to add a title to the list of games I've beaten.

[odifiend]

You know what would be awesome?  If you could just buy a game that played itself.  Since everyone is so busy, make these self-playing games 90 minutes to 2 hours long.  We could leave them on DVD!  They could have extras but we'll make them accessible from the  menu so you don't have to work for them.

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
You know what would be awesome?  If you could just buy a game that played itself.  Since everyone is so busy, make these self-playing games 90 minutes to 2 hours long.  We could leave them on DVD!  They could have extras but we'll make them accessible from the  menu so you don't have to work for them.

Oh you mean like Advent Children?

Believe it or not I really do like meaty games.  I just don't like pointless games.  I game can turn pointless.  Zelda TP is a good example.  I was driven to continue on to the point that I replayed the first 20 hours of the game because of a Wii problem.  I enjoyed it and my poor wife had to endure.  Then I got to a point where I was just backtracking with no purpose or story except to end the game.  Then the game became pointless to me and the gameplay was not so engaging to override that.  Trauma Center was similar but that one was it was a good ride through the whole DS parts,I beat all of it in normal, then I got to the Wii exlcusive chapters and well it was just more harder versions of the same and that story didn't compell plus the time to accomplishment ratio on that was skewed for me.

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
You know what would be awesome?  If you could just buy a game that played itself.  Since everyone is so busy, make these self-playing games 90 minutes to 2 hours long.  We could leave them on DVD!  They could have extras but we'll make them accessible from the  menu so you don't have to work for them.

You talking about Final Fantasy XII? :p

[IceCold]

Quote
What I would like even better, is a 'cheat' function if you would. An arrow points you to where you need to go next in a main quest....and as you walk along, it tells you what you need to do, except in puzzle rooms. That would give games like Zelda tons more replay.

But in Twilight Princess it literally spelled out where you should go on the map. I could see you having trouble with going to Telma's bar if you forgot that she told you to at Kakariko but before and after that it was pretty straightforward. And Midna usually gave you blatant hints, too.

As for me, I don't enjoy Zelda games as much as, say, Mario games. But I still love them. I don't finish them to see the ending, which is usually a good sign. And I don't usually finish all the sidequests and collection quests - only the ones that I enjoy. But, now that I'm deep into TP, I can safely say that it holds up well against other 3D Zeldas. There are some amazing moments / sequences.. The only thing, as someone else noted before, is that the dungeons do seem shorter than usual. Well, later on this is definitely true.

For the person who doesn't enjoy nongames and Zelda and Metroid games, play Jungle Beat! And Super Mario Galaxy when it comes out.  

[Kairon]

Sounds to me like Zelda: TP really SUFFERED because it lacked the reminding nagging of Navi.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[KDR_11k]

Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
You know what would be awesome?  If you could just buy a game that played itself.  Since everyone is so busy, make these self-playing games 90 minutes to 2 hours long.  We could leave them on DVD!  They could have extras but we'll make them accessible from the  menu so you don't have to work for them.

Progress Quest!

If you want an obnoxious hint giver try Issun from Okami. Press the wrong button and he spells the complete puzzle solution out for you.

[zakkiel]

So is this the thread where the weak and feeble gather to moan, or what? Buck up, people. I don't get it - if the first twenty hours of a game are fun, and you're willing to buy a sequel with another similar 20 hours, why not just have the 40 hours in one game (still for $50)? Is the attention span of modern gamers really so decrepit? Would you rather Zelda be delivered in $20 6-hour "expansions" a la HL2? Help me understand what we want here.

[KDR_11k]

If you don't have much time perhaps you'd like to see more varied gameplay than one game can sanely provide? RPGs often have 40 or even 80 hours of "gameplay" whereby most of that consists of performing the same attacks over and over again, leaving such a game behind and going with another means you get to do something else.

[ShreddersDojo]

I'm not talking THAT helpful .

Lets say you defeat a boss.  our Shadow friend tells you where to go next.  OK, you're there.  So, now what direction?  Sometimes in the 3D world, especially in rocky areas, I can spend a good ten minutes trying to figure out which way to go.  If you're lasting this long wandering around, an arrow or a path can light up on a more detailed version of the map showing you where to go next.  It would ignore side quest directions unless it's important to the game.

This would also be helpful if you put the game down for months at a time like I do and can't remember where in a dungeon you have to backtrack to, or what have you.  That's one reason why I always try to complete dungeons before saving/turning it off.    As far as games like Metroid, they could have the  above, and something could say, 'There is a life tank in this area somewhere...'  'there is a missile upgrade in this area somewhere..' etc.  This is just my personal opinion, but I think it would give these longer games much more replay value.  Argue away!

[KDR_11k]

I don't see how it improves the replay value. Also Metroid already has the hint system.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
You know what I really would like is if games consistently made the ending worth it.  The ultimate test of my skills with a great wrap up.  Saddly many games just don't do that today.

Ironic how TP doesn't deliver on either regard!

[Ian Sane]

"Sometimes in the 3D world, especially in rocky areas, I can spend a good ten minutes trying to figure out which way to go. If you're lasting this long wandering around, an arrow or a path can light up on a more detailed version of the map showing you where to go next."

So you want games that are supposed to rely on puzzle solving and figuring out what to do to tell you exactly what to do?  Well f*ck why don't I just create a Mario game where all jumps are handled for me?  Doing something like that would make Zelda a linear action game.  Figuring out what to do is the whole f*cking point of Zelda.  Take that away and the game is nothing.  If you don't want a challenge load up Gamefaqs.

I do like the idea of having some way to recall what needs to be done after not playing the game for a few months but stuff like that is often already in place.  Plus most games totally hold your hand already if you let them.  There's no need to make things easier when half of these games are total pushovers anyway.

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
You know what I really would like is if games consistently made the ending worth it.  The ultimate test of my skills with a great wrap up.  Saddly many games just don't do that today.

Ironic how TP doesn't deliver on either regard!

And Half Life 2.

I have to agree about the arrow sometimes.  I was playing FFIII, not the best example but its fresh in mind, and their/there/they're were some places where because of the 3D elements you could tell that the walls were split a little and you where suppose to walk through that.  I run into a number of those types of things where it was obviously not part of a puzzle just bad design.

[the1st_fret]

Speaking as a hardcore game gone 'Hardcore-Casual' My point was, the Wii is a very popular system. And there are going to be alot of people out there who are disapponted with how the games aren't as easy to pick up as the console is. Fair enough if TP had stayed on the gamecube. But with it being on the Wii, it wasn't at all like I expected. I expected hardcore games to have a more casual approach, or to be reinvented to give them new life. Like Resident Evil 4 did. And they're just about to do it again with Umbrella Chronicles.

I think 'intuitiveness' is a big part of my point as well. Zelda had me coming away frustrated almost every time. As did Red Steel. But i'm guess i'm judging too early as all these games are firsts on wii with the new controls. I'll be more inerested in checking out the sequels that are designed from the ground up for Wii and with some experience in the control mechanisms.

[Mikintosh]

Quote
Originally posted by: the1st_fret
Speaking as a hardcore game gone 'Hardcore-Casual' My point was, the Wii is a very popular system. And there are going to be alot of people out there who are disapponted with how the games aren't as easy to pick up as the console is. Fair enough if TP had stayed on the gamecube. But with it being on the Wii, it wasn't at all like I expected. I expected hardcore games to have a more casual approach, or to be reinvented to give them new life. Like Resident Evil 4 did. And they're just about to do it again with Umbrella Chronicles.

I think 'intuitiveness' is a big part of my point as well. Zelda had me coming away frustrated almost every time. As did Red Steel. But i'm guess i'm judging too early as all these games are firsts on wii with the new controls. I'll be more inerested in checking out the sequels that are designed from the ground up for Wii and with some experience in the control mechanisms.

But...you had to have known the Wii version was identical, right? They barely had time to port the game at all before the launch, it's not like they could have redesigned it.

To chime in with the whining, I've had to use player's guides for almost every game I've played past Donkey Kong, including all the 3D Zeldas. And yet I'm still satisfied because I'm actually playing the game; I don't have the kind of pride that forces me to spend hours of my life figuring out a puzzle when I can just move on. Actually, one of the reasons I've grown so annoyed at Super Mario Sunshine is that I'm barely halfway through it after 5 years, and that's with the player's guide. I think that's too deep a difficulty for a Mario game.

[Ceric]

lol.  Mario Sunshine was the first Mario game I fully beated without help.

[Ian Sane]

"Speaking as a hardcore game gone 'Hardcore-Casual' My point was, the Wii is a very popular system. And there are going to be alot of people out there who are disapponted with how the games aren't as easy to pick up as the console is."

Why should every game on the Wii be designed for casuals?  There are tons of pick-up-and-play games so let Zelda be Zelda.  I can't think of any console where every game was designed for one audience.

This whole thing reminds me of Metroid Prime Hunters.  Too many people didn't like Metroid Prime because it played like a Metroid game and instead of finding a DIFFERENT game to play that made a big stink about how Metroid should be changed to suit them instead of Metroid fans and for some reason Nintendo actually went along with them.  If you don't like Zelda as is then go find something else.  Why ruin Zelda for the Zelda fans because YOUR tastes changed.

[Ceric]

Quote
"Speaking as a hardcore game gone 'Hardcore-Casual' My point was, the Wii is a very popular system. And there are going to be alot of people out there who are disapponted with how the games aren't as easy to pick up as the console is."

I didn't even notice that the first read.

So the games need to be really difficult to pick up and play, correct?  Must read the manual first games no in-game tutorials.  

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
lol.  Mario Sunshine was the first Mario game I fully beated without help.

If you were able to successfully collect all the Blue Coins by yourself my hat is off to you, good sir.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Some of those blue coins were outright stupidly random and tedious.

The Wii is easier to pickup than the ps3.

ps3 is HEAVY.

[Ceric]

Quote
The Wii is easier to pickup than the ps3.

ps3 is HEAVY.

I thought about that approach too.  I want for availability instead.

[Ian Sane]

"If you were able to successfully collect all the Blue Coins by yourself my hat is off to you, good sir."

The problem with the blue coins is that there wasn't a counter to keep track of how many you had found.  So if you went back to a level after not playing it for a long time you didn't remember if you had found them all already.  It was like if someone hid marbles throughout a mansion and told you to find them all without giving you any idea of how many marbles there were in the first place or how many each room had.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"If you were able to successfully collect all the Blue Coins by yourself my hat is off to you, good sir."

The problem with the blue coins is that there wasn't a counter to keep track of how many you had found.  So if you went back to a level after not playing it for a long time you didn't remember if you had found them all already.  It was like if someone hid marbles throughout a mansion and told you to find them all without giving you any idea of how many marbles there were in the first place or how many each room had.

Which is a GREAT example of how AWESOME bug collecting was in Zelda:TP and how UTTERLY DISCOURAGING collecting Poes is. Poes just has a counter up to 60, but there's no way to know how many are in each zone or even where to start looking for them. In contrast, we know that there were only 2 bugs in each zone, so once you came across one, you knew there would be another one in the same zone, and you'd know which zones you hadn't found one in yet, and which zones you haven't found 'em both in, and etc.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ceric]

Its been a while but I don't know if I got them all or not.