Topic: Analyst: "Gaming has been a disastrous endeavor for Microsoft"

[MarioAllStar]

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Originally posted by: Ceric
Anyways, I'm waiting for them to finish up Monad,Methinks its something like powershell now, and for Longhorn Server.  Monad, for all intents and purposes, moves the Windows Command line more toward the *nix command line.

PowerShell seems pretty interesting. On one hand, the idea of using objects seems a lot cleaner than passing text around on Unix, but then again text is easy to work with. If I need something more complicated, I use Perl for scripting.

I wouldn't mind a simple standard for Unix where data could be passed in "tables" as a midpoint between text and full-on objects. For example, the "ps" command could optionally give its output in a table form to make accessing certain process information easier (i.e., select the PID of all processes owned by root). XML could fit something like that pretty well.

[Ceric]

I agree about the keyboard.  I use it as much as possible.

Doesn't DirectX 9 run on 2000?  MS tends to keep support if a platform is popular in the right segment, business.

Personally I tend to script in Python or whats native.  I'm not really a fan of XML.

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Their current OSX releases will still run on our iMacs: that's 9 years ago.

Congratulation you are one of the lucky ones. So you have a G3 iMac?  Rumor has it that won't work for Leopard.  You may now be mad at Apple for not supporting your 9 year old box.

Seriously though I'm hoping that OS's will reach a stable point where one can be around for 10+ years with only minor revisions (Service Packs not whole OS Upgrades).  Though that would probably make it even harder for me to find work...  

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
I wouldn't mind a simple standard for Unix where data could be passed in "tables" as a midpoint between text and full-on objects. For example, the "ps" command could optionally give its output in a table form to make accessing certain process information easier (i.e., select the PID of all processes owned by root). XML could fit something like that pretty well.

Well that's nothing special, UNIX just uses some fancy delimiters (like tabs, i forget what those obscure ASCII characters are) being used to align everything and make it look like a table. But its still raw text, so you can certainly play around with pipes and produce something like that already. Grep is your friend. Grep often. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of processes that could be combined through pipes into a command to do what you want, but it wouldn't be XML data. Just plain text - but you could certainly parse that further.

But not now, there's more important work to do

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Originally posted by: Ceric
Doesn't DirectX 9 run on 2000?  MS tends to keep support if a platform is popular in the right segment, business.

Well my brother still plays Guild Wars on a 2000 box so I think that's right. But I can't pry him off there for long enough to confirm this. I wouldn't say 2k was a popular gaming platform but considering its core (it was based off of NT, and XP borrowed a lot from 2000) then I'm not surprised its still being supported. It still gets security updates even though its been out for longer than the 5 year "support window" that Microsoft were threatening. Or maybe that was for non-security patches.

[Ceric]

I remember when 2000 came out.  It wouldn't play games worth squat if at all.  Once it became apparent that it starting to be preferred in the home segment over ME the support got in their and it became much more compatible.  Some of the die hard 2000 people weren't initial adopters and didn't have to go through that time.  I can say the same about the original OSX I mean initially it was a leap it got significantly better with each release.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ceric
Congratulation you are one of the lucky ones. So you have a G3 iMac?  Rumor has it that won't work for Leopard.  You may now be mad at Apple for not supporting your 9 year old box.

Seriously though I'm hoping that OS's will reach a stable point where one can be around for 10+ years with only minor revisions (Service Packs not whole OS Upgrades).  Though that would probably make it even harder for me to find work...

They did around 10.3, actually.

Any updates seen after that are either free downloads for security or browser updates or the version releases which add new features.

In either case, we haven't updated the thing since 10.3 and there's never been a need to do so.

[Ceric]

I can see that.  The last release didn't add anything really important from a home perspective. (It gave better support of some of the Weirdness we do at the TTU Comp. Sci. Mac Lab.)

[Smash_Brother]

Yeah, you're not going to be rendering anything on a G3 iMac so it's good as a web surfing/email machine.

Like I said, employing senior citizens.

[Galford]

How did this become a Mac vs PC thread? Oh well...

I said it before and I'll say it again, The 360 is MS's entry into the living room or all-in-one market.  Everyone in the consumers electronics industry is trying to do this.  The cable companies are doing this with there digital cable boxes, Apple is doing this with their iPod, AppleTV and iphone and the Japanese are doing this with their consoles.

To everyone who is purchasing a Mac, you are going from a horizontal monopoly to a vertical one.  Macs are great till you walk off the farm and do something Furher Jobs doesn't like.

About MS spending billions, how is a company suppose to break into the console market without money hats?  Someone please answer me that.

[Kairon]

I just want to own a time machine! That's why I want to get a mac.

Oh, and about MS... no ones concerned that they spent money. Everyone's concerned when they start MAKING SOME.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Mikintosh]

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Originally posted by: Galford
How did this become a Mac vs PC thread? Oh well...

I said it before and I'll say it again, The 360 is MS's entry into the living room or all-in-one market.  Everyone in the consumers electronics industry is trying to do this.  The cable companies are doing this with there digital cable boxes, Apple is doing this with their iPod, AppleTV and iphone and the Japanese are doing this with their consoles.

To everyone who is purchasing a Mac, you are going from a horizontal monopoly to a vertical one.  Macs are great till you walk off the farm and do something Furher Jobs doesn't like.

About MS spending billions, how is a company suppose to break into the console market without money hats?  Someone please answer me that.

Be known for making their own games which can carry a system, a la Nintendo and Sega. MS & Sony can't generate that kind of brand loyalty (which they need in the long run) because they're mostly propped up by 3rd and 2nd parties whose series are not tied to their systems like Mario and Zelda are to Nintendo's and Sonic was to Sega's. If this was the Capcom Xbox 360, and had exclusive Resident Evil/Devil May Cry/whatever, it'd probably be doing better.

And the living room market is a nowhere possibility, a lesson Microsoft should have learned with WebTV or whatever that was back in the 90s. The more you try to make one device service multiple purposes (see Plane-Car!(R)), the more the public perceives that it is worse at any of them. Like Sony, Microsoft cannot give up an idea which they think will take them into the stratosphere even if the attempt costs them billions of dollars and ultimately fails.

Apple's fine because, with the exception of AppleTV (which will also go nowhere, I bet), all of their products are accessories. The Zune would've been a great idea if had come out before the iPod. But MS doesn't have that kind of insight; at best, they refine existing products from other companies into something more streamlined and pleasant to use. At worst, they become so arrogant that they think they can slap the Microsoft name on a shoddy or bloated product and for it to sell like hotcakes because the stock's so high. But that's not a given.

[Ceric]

I have to say the Microsoft has made more games that have a more diverse following longer then Sony.

Also as mentioned Vertical Vs Horizontal approach.  (This is in relationship to Media Players.) Fuhrer Jobs wanted a closed system while Father Gates wanted to provide an essential piece, the software and certifications, and let other work out the hardware and additional software.  Looking at each respected backgrounds you can see why they would think like that.  Apple made its success off of a closed system with its PC's.  Their where Apple Clones developed at one time.  It didn't work out for Apple and they pulled the plug on it.

In all actuality Apple sort of lucked out on that one.  I doubt they really stepped back out of their mindset to take in the broad picture, either one of them.  Just so happens to be that while People love choice some things they just want to work.  Locking people in one type of player and one Music store is fine with most people as long as they have a very diverse and large choice of media so they never truly feel like their chained down.  Most people don't care about the format of the data as long as it has contents that they want.  While thats terrible for innovation and true progress it is comfortable and stable.

At the time different approaches and Apple read they market a little better and it was more in line with their philosophy.  Though the real props need to come in how they used that new market to bring their original core market back from a depression.

[UERD]

I think it's still too early to count Microsoft out of the race just yet. They have a decent number of units in the market right now, and are holding their own in the short-term (although in all fairness, the XBox was released significantly earlier than either the Wii or the PS3). We'll have to wait at least until the next generation before we can get a real clear feeling as to how viable the XBox is going to be in the long run.

Still, I'm not sure MS really has the 'killer IPs' necessary for long-term XBox growth. I mean, the biggest XBox exclusive game franchise right now is easily 'Halo', which is entering its third incarnation. Gears of War is also pretty popular. The issue is that most of the XBox's most prominent IPs are first-person shooters, and this doesn't really look like it's going to change very much: look at the failure of 'Kameo', and the dearth of RPGs. The success of the XBox up to this point is, I feel, predominantly due to Halo (which was an extremely well-received game) and XBox Live (which is a well-received online service). The XBox Live type of online service is really most useful for action games such as FPSes (like Halo 2 and Gears), after all.

The XBox isn't popular in Japan because Japanese gamers don't seem to be as infatuated with FPS games as American gamers, and because of the dearth of the genres that the Japanese market has traditionally favored (such as name-brand RPGs and stuff). Right now, the XBox has kind of been 'pigeonholed' as the console for the American gamer who likes shooting stuff up and perhaps playing sports games. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it doesn't really leave much room for growth. There are only so many consumers who are willing to play FPSes, car racing games, and sports simulators. Unless they can break out of that rut, there's really not that much hope for them taking over the industry, let alone becoming a perennial market leader. I mean, yes, the XBox is a media center, but it's primarily a gaming machine, has been promoted as such, and exists in the public consciousness as such. I doubt a significant number of people are going to buy XBoxes because they want to watch HD-DVD movies or surf the web on their TVs- unless MS realigns the public perception of the XBox as primarily a media center (a move fraught with risks and ill-advised in its own right), people are going to buy XBoxes for the games, and the media center functionality is going to remain strictly ancillary.

[IceCold]

UERD nailed it. The 360 is ultimately a niche console right now. Microsoft has realised this, and has tried to fix it with Kameo, Viva Pinata, Blue Dragon &c.. but all things considered, the attempt has failed.

I've said it before - it's like Nintendo with the GameCube.

[KDR_11k]

I think the 360 is here to stay, it's getting lots of games even of the kind that's aimed at Japan (Trusty Bell anyone?) and I think most devs consider it the platform for good graphics since Sony dropped the ball so hard they left a hole in the floor.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Galford Macs are great till you walk off the farm and do something Furher Jobs doesn't like.

It is SO hard to resist the urge to make a joke about PC users and concentration camps...

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About MS spending billions, how is a company suppose to break into the console market without money hats?  Someone please answer me that.

Same way Nintendo made their way back in: an innovative design with quality 1st party software.

But I agree that you'd need about a billion dollars to make your own console to start with.

[Ceric]

I also like to add that MS could do find with the 360 with just the US/Canada region.  It is obvious that a lot of games that would be considered more "American" are going to the system.  Take "Too Human" for example.  From what I read it just screams American RPG.  Which in its own right is rarely what people consider a "Traditional" RPG.  Even the little XBLA games scream "done by an American developer with America in mind."

Which I think is fine because we have been dominated by Japanese games for a long while.  Unfortunately their are only a few genres that are developed here in the States/Canada because of the dominance in the other that Japan has enjoyed.  Though I think now given time we will start to see the "American" take on other genres come about soon.

I'm sorry I can't talk about European games because I'm not familar with the area.

[Spak-Spang]

See I believe that Japan's companies and developers can learn much from the American developers.  Look at Xbox Live...nothing Nintendo or Sony is doing even comes close to the perfection that is that online community and gaming experience.  The overall package of the Xbox 360's online package is incredible.

And that is what Microsoft is banking on for success...the MILLIONS of players world wide that enjoy the online gaming experience.  Sure right now it is more strictly American audience in mind, but Japan is a hard country to crack, because they are very loyal to their brands, and have such varying and odd tastes in games.

I really believe that this generation will have two players in first place.  Nintendo and Microsoft.  Japan will be dominated by Nintendo, and as such Nintendo will do pretty well all over the world.  But, I foresee Microsoft taking the US market and splitting the European market with Nintendo.

[Ceric]

Talking about XBox Live.  I agree mostly with this editorial I found today.

Also I agree with Spak-Spang post as well.

[couchmonkey]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: Galford

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About MS spending billions, how is a company suppose to break into the console market without money hats?  Someone please answer me that.

Same way Nintendo made their way back in: an innovative design with quality 1st party software.

But I agree that you'd need about a billion dollars to make your own console to start with.

Not to mention Sony with the PSX...it takes a major investment to get into the industry these days, but Sony didn't lose billions on PSX...in fact it was responsible for 1/3 of Sony's revenues in the late 90s.  Sony read the market.  Nintendo is currently the one that read the market and is coming back.

Microsoft reads the market after the fact.  It has awesome first-person shooters and online gaming: both of which were established years ago on PC.  Now Microsoft is pouring tons of money into RPGs, a genre which was #1 in Japan, but is slowly constricting.  At the same time, Viva Pinata and Kameo take aim at the "Nintendo market", which has been shrinking for three generations.  What's the point?

Next up?  Peter Moore and others have been talking about how MS needs to get more family-friendly, non-gamer products on the market, similar to Wii. I have five words for Microsoft: Brain Trainer Portable for PSP.  At least the company seems to be reading the trends faster (1-2 years instead of 5 or more) but you can't win first place by copying first place.

Edit: I think 360 could still prove to be fairly successful.  Sony has messed up a lot, Xbxo 360 basically has a permanent price advantage on PS3, so Microsoft can sit back and make a bit of profit for a change.  Xbox 360 is in position to be the winning "premium" next-gen console this generation, and that could be enough to justify a "720" in a few years.

[KDR_11k]

you can't win first place by copying first place.

Pfft. Worked for Sony.

[couchmonkey]

Ha ha, it's true that Sony copies a lot of technology and some game concepts, but Sony also understood that Nintendo was on the outs with third parties and with an aging male demographic.  It targeted teen/adult gamers and made life good for the likes of Square and Capcom.  It also got a little lucky with Nintendo's screw-ups.

Microsoft's strategy is focused on being the best at the exact same stuff as Sony.  It puts tons of money down on exclusive games aimed at Sony's demographics: the whole Mistwalker deal is a perfect example of trying to buy Sony's customers directly.  Sony never had to do that, it just grabbed up all the third party support.

Now Sony is in a bad position, but Microsoft doesn't seem to have any plans to capitalize on it.  Where are the price cuts?  They don't matter, as long as Sony is selling so poorly, Microsoft will just sit there and profit.  It doesn't even care that Nintendo is swiping all the marketshare out from under it as long as PS3 sells worse than 360 and third parties port their PS3 projects to 360.

[Spak-Spang]

Yes because we all know Sony is the BEST at online gaming and communities.

Sony is the BEST at creating American flavored franchises, and gathering PC and American developer support.

Sony is also the BEST at promoting HD gaming, even though Xbox 360 did it first.

People need to start giving Microsoft some credit.  Yes, they have bought their way into the market...but you know what.  Microsoft did what they had to do to get in.  And now they are pushing forward in areas that Sony and Nintendo haven't yet.

And Ceric:  I completely agree with that editorial you posted.  Very informative.

[IceCold]

Couchmonkey is dead on with his analysis - there's no doubt that Microsoft will do fairly well this generation, and keep that core audience they have. But it'll be tough for the 360 to break out and become mainstream.

[Mikintosh]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
People need to start giving Microsoft some credit.  Yes, they have bought their way into the market...but you know what.  Microsoft did what they had to do to get in.  And now they are pushing forward in areas that Sony and Nintendo haven't yet.

True. Actually, if it was between Sony & Microsoft, I'd want Microsoft to keep going against Nintendo in the next generation. However, the failure in the Japanese market is like someone letting the air out of your tires; the car'll still run, but not nearly as fast. NOTE: I do not own a car.

[Kairon]

I'm scared of Microsoft though. Call it irrational prejudice against Microsoft if you will... but I am!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com