Topic: The Wii is a "mistake"...

[Kairon]

All in all, these mistakes have made Nintendo the company it is today, taught important lessons, and ultimately made them a stronger company, not a weaker one.

Especially with the decision to split with Sony, sure Nintendo "lost" the next two generations (but remained profitable, innovative, and continued to make the best games around), but with as bad as that contract with Sony was, it's easy to wonder just how much worse it could have been for Nintendo if they HADN'T had made that "mistake."

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
All in all, these mistakes have made Nintendo the company it is today, taught important lessons, and ultimately made them a stronger company, not a weaker one.

Especially with the decision to split with Sony, sure Nintendo "lost" the next two generations (but remained profitable, innovative, and continued to make the best games around), but with as bad as that contract with Sony was, it's easy to wonder just how much worse it could have been for Nintendo if they HADN'T had made that "mistake."

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

It is my personal belief that EVERYTHING we do in life has a purpose. Both the correct choices and the mistakes play heavily into the type of person we become. The same holds true to companies.

Now that you mentioned that, if it wasn't for the mistakes the article mentioned, as well as what happened to Nintendo with the N64 and Gamecube, would we have gotten the DS and the Wii?

Nintendo has stated that one of the reasons behind the creation of the Wii and the DS was because they were tired if catching up to the other guys and decided to do their own thing. And that decision flourished because of the failures and mistakes that happened during the N64 and GC eras.

Also, would the Wii and DS be getting great third party support if Nintendo hadn't realized that their strict and anal requirements for game developing was hurting their relationships with other companies?

So everything Nintendo has done, and that includes mistakes, has served a purpose in shaping Nintendo into what it is today.

[Kairon]

I believe that too pap64! Sure, making mistakes hurts and its embarassing and makes you feel horrible, but without making and learning from mistakes you'll never grow, you'll never change, and you'll never become anything new.

You know, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and all that jazz. And of course, in full 20/20 hindsight, some mistakes are really fortuitous.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[couchmonkey]

Your comments on Nintendo getting where it is today through those mistakes are quite true.

I think a lot of people feel that Nintendo "half-assed" the GameCube: the system was over a year late compared to PS2, many of Nintendo's sequels weren't up to par, Nintendo gave up most of its second party relationships, there was no real online gaming in place, Nintendo refused to spring for things like FMV and voice acting, the Cube was goofy looking, etc, etc.

Some of these points are debatable, for example we all know a lot of fans are strongly against voice acting in games like Zelda, but the point is that things like that were par for the course on PS2 and Xbox - Nintendo was unwilling to keep up with the Joneses.

But what if Nintendo had kept up with the Joneses?  Would that have been enough to beat N64?  What about PS2?  And even if it was enough to improve Nintendo's lot in the industry, where would that leave Wii?  We'd probably have a third overpriced muscle-console being outsold by PS2 each month.  

[UERD]

I think it was easier for Nintendo to throw convention out the window when developing their new systems, seeing as how they had relatively little to lose compared to Sony (who had a decisive lead with the PS2) or the XBox (which was still trying to establish its reputation as the relative newcomer). If Nintendo had been in Sony's position last generation, I seriously doubt they would have risked as much with a radical paradigm shift that could have potentially tanked the system.

Even so, Nintendo is probably the company best-suited for innovating their way out of ruts. If Sony really does fall to last place this generation, I really cannot see them coming back to the top anytime soon, especially through the development of a revolutionary new innovation in technology (as opposed to gradual improvements to existing hardware).

"New, for 2015! The PS4! $13,000, with optional gold trim and built-in leather seats! Graphics indistinguishable from real life! DualShock XVIII controller included (now wireless!) Hurry now, we're only making 15,000 of them before the lines CLOSE FOREVER!!!"

[Deguello]

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If Nintendo had been in Sony's position last generation, I seriously doubt they would have risked as much with a radical paradigm shift that could have potentially tanked the system.

But UERD, they did actually do that.  The GBA was the undisputed champ and instead of playing it safe with a GBA2 like the PSP they innovated.

[Kairon]

EASIER, but not impossible.

Actually, the DS was the beginning of a Nintendo pre-emptive strike to respond to the shrinking Japanese game market... so you can't say that they were totally un-impelled to innovate, it's just that Nintendo was lucky enough to be able to read the writing on the wall and act before their precious GBA was staked through the heart.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

What I like about Nintendo is they usually innovate just to innovate, not because their back is against the wall. Take N64 for example, the controller was quite innovative, and they, at that time were not terrified of Sony. Also, like someone else mentioned, they took a huge chance with NDS even though they could have probably sucked off the GBA upgrade for awhile, but they didn't.

[Plugabugz]

If i was you, just ignore gamesradar. They put up a "top 25 gamecube games" list, with the next 5 each day. They stopped at 15 and never finished it.

They also have been waxing lyrical over GTA IV for days, even to the point of analysing the trailer and comparing the visual detail and its differences to new york.

[Ian Sane]

"Things like the controller may have been quirky, but I don't think they had a huge impact on Nintendo's sales"

I've never understand any backlash against the N64 controller.  The innovations it introduced changed controller standards.  And the good N64 games all controlled like a dream.  Some people were confused at first but no one complained once they played Super Mario 64.  I think any hating on the N64 controller is either based on modern points of view (ie: the analog stick has been better implemented since) or just general N64 bashing.  I actually find the N64 pretty damn impressive all things considering.  Nintendo really handcuffed themselves but still managed to stay in number two and make some of the best games ever made.  They were f*cked from day one but they really seemed to try.

I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes.  They're doing so well with the Wii because they noticed a problem in Japan that no one else did and took the steps to avoid it.  They did that with their portable which was number one and with their console which was dead last so I figure that regardless of where either system was they would have gone with the DS and the Wii.  I don't see some new and improved Nintendo.  I see the same Nintendo with the same weaknesses and problems only now they've tapped a large chunk of new market.  That had made their userbase larger and everything has snowballed from there.  They never lost the portable crown but I think a big part of that is that no one ever challenged them in a way that attacked Nintendo's weakness or exploited their shortcomings.  It's not like portable Nintendo was a different company than console Nintendo.  It's just that in one market they screwed up too big at the wrong time when a competitor was in the perfect position to take advantage and in the other market that's never happened.

I think Nintendo is still in a position where it could all happen again.  The right competitor could still steal it all with the right timing.  Nintendo still seems capable of the same kind of mistakes.  Now they're safe for now but I don't think they've learned much.  But then big corporations rarely do.

It's still not as bad as Sony since they have actually changed for the worst.  They didn't learn from Nintendo's mistakes which were the very things they exploited to get on top in the first place.

[Ceric]

Personally I think the Wiimote would have been an accessory for the Cube if the Cube was first place.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Things like the controller may have been quirky, but I don't think they had a huge impact on Nintendo's sales"

I've never understand any backlash against the N64 controller.  The innovations it introduced changed controller standards.  And the good N64 games all controlled like a dream.  Some people were confused at first but no one complained once they played Super Mario 64.  I think any hating on the N64 controller is either based on modern points of view (ie: the analog stick has been better implemented since) or just general N64 bashing.  I actually find the N64 pretty damn impressive all things considering.  Nintendo really handcuffed themselves but still managed to stay in number two and make some of the best games ever made.  They were f*cked from day one but they really seemed to try.

I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes.  They're doing so well with the Wii because they noticed a problem in Japan that no one else did and took the steps to avoid it.  They did that with their portable which was number one and with their console which was dead last so I figure that regardless of where either system was they would have gone with the DS and the Wii.  I don't see some new and improved Nintendo.  I see the same Nintendo with the same weaknesses and problems only now they've tapped a large chunk of new market.  That had made their userbase larger and everything has snowballed from there.  They never lost the portable crown but I think a big part of that is that no one ever challenged them in a way that attacked Nintendo's weakness or exploited their shortcomings.  It's not like portable Nintendo was a different company than console Nintendo.  It's just that in one market they screwed up too big at the wrong time when a competitor was in the perfect position to take advantage and in the other market that's never happened.

I think Nintendo is still in a position where it could all happen again.  The right competitor could still steal it all with the right timing.  Nintendo still seems capable of the same kind of mistakes.  Now they're safe for now but I don't think they've learned much.  But then big corporations rarely do.

It's still not as bad as Sony since they have actually changed for the worst.  They didn't learn from Nintendo's mistakes which were the very things they exploited to get on top in the first place.

Good points, Ian. I can't argue against this viewpoint: it seems quite valid. Who knows if Iwata has just steered Nintendo in a different direction, or has changed Nintendo somewhere fundamentally?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[that Baby guy]

I think the amounts of third party support for the Wii before it even launched speaks to say something has changed, though.  I agree that they haven't learned too much, but you have to admit, Nintendo does value its third parties more than it used to.  After the PS2, I think we all learned the value of just setting shovelware on a whole lot of shelves, including Nintendo.

[UncleBob]

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Originally posted by: UncleBob

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Originally posted by: pap64
Games Radar has posted an editorial [...]

Who?

This thread is still the first time I'd ever heard of this website...  am I the only one?  I mean, I know there are a *lot* of gaming web sites that I don't visit on a regular basis (or at all), but I'm familiar with most of the major ones... or so I thought.

[Artimus]

Things have DEFINITELY changed at Nintendo since the N64 days. Third party relations may not be perfect, but they're much much better. There's no question of that. They've also fixed the Cube's major downfall: image. To not admit they've totally improved the image from the Cube's purple is just denying reality. They may still be seen as less adult than Sony/Microsoft but there has most definitely been a change in their image from kidd1e. Less so among the internet games crowd, but even there the claims are less frequent and offensive.

Are there still mistakes? Yes. But they have changed a lot in major ways.

[AwesomeMan]

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Originally posted by: Kairon

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Originally posted by: Rhoq

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Originally posted by: Kairon
It's true, but it's a strange truth... Mario 64 could not have been done on CDs, at least not at that time.

Interesting. Can you elaborate?

Both views hinge on the assumption that Miyamoto was right in valuing wide spaces and quick load times in his game design choices. In my opinion, I blame the adherence to the cartridge format on the master himself, for better or for worse...


~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Panzer Dragoon Saga had pretty wide spaces from what i remember, not sure if they're as big or bigger than M64 since i don't like that game, but they are pretty big.

[couchmonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane

I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes.  They're doing so well with the Wii because they noticed a problem in Japan that no one else did and took the steps to avoid it.  They did that with their portable which was number one and with their console which was dead last so I figure that regardless of where either system was they would have gone with the DS and the Wii.  I don't see some new and improved Nintendo.  I see the same Nintendo with the same weaknesses and problems only now they've tapped a large chunk of new market.  That had made their userbase larger and everything has snowballed from there.  They never lost the portable crown but I think a big part of that is that no one ever challenged them in a way that attacked Nintendo's weakness or exploited their shortcomings.  It's not like portable Nintendo was a different company than console Nintendo.  It's just that in one market they screwed up too big at the wrong time when a competitor was in the perfect position to take advantage and in the other market that's never happened.

I believe Nintendo was in a much better position to see this problem because it had been losing space in the home console market for years.

We talk about GBA being number 1, yes, but how many times did we hear dire predictions of Nintendo going third party based entirely on the weakness of its home console market?  The success of the Game Boy line was always the silver lining on the dark storm cloud*.  Everyone wanted to know: What's wrong with Nintendo?  Why can't it fix the problems of N64 and GameCube?

I really believe Nintendo was asking itself those questions and I believe DS was the first experiment to try and turn things around.  Remember how careful Nintendo was not to sully the Game Boy name?  This was a "third pillar".  If DS had not taken off, I'm sure we'd have a fairly traditional Game Boy follow-up on the market right now, but the truth is the Game Boy "pillar" is falling and unless Nintendo resurrects it for nostalgia's sake, we'll probably never see another Game Boy-branded system.

I guess the question is, "would Nintendo have cared about Japan's shrinking market if GameCube was number 1?"  I think the answer is yes, but not enough to take the huge gamble that DS and Wii presented at first.

Ian, I'd love to hear what you think Nintendo's ongoing mistakes are.  I think there are a few but I'm not certain how important any of them are.  The company can be cheap, but that's arguably what kept it alive through the lean years.  Nintendo could also expand its lineup a bit - "family friendly" is good, but it wouldn't kill the company to cater to more mature/macho tastes a bit.

*sorry about waxing poetic, I got all excited.    

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes.

That's pretty faulty logic, Ian.

Nintendo is in the position they're in because they HAVE learned from their mistakes.

Mistake #1: 3rd parties hate Nintendo's guts
Solution: Iwata is a diplomat first and foremost. Also, he himself IS a former game developer and as such he can most easily relate to the challenges devs face. I think that it is absolutely pertinent that the head chair at Nintendo be filled by someone who has at one point developed games themselves.

The lengths Nintendo has gone through to aid 3rd parties in developing for their console are vast and many, from lowering licensing fees to making Wii devkits under $5,000 to lowering the bar for newer devs when it comes to licensing them, Nintendo is making a HUGE effort to see to it that bringing games to their consoles is as easy as possible.

Mistake #2: The GC is a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest
Solution: Start throwing punches. Rather than try to beat Sony and MS at their own game, a game which Nintendo outright lacks the resources to win, Nintendo changed their console and differentiated themselves so much that you can't even file them in the same category anymore. This not only forced customers to think about them differently but it also forced devs to do the same, resulting in better review scores for games like Godfather on Nintendo hardware, something which was previously unheard of.

To say Nintendo didn't learn from their mistakes is ignoring all of the changes they've made in direct response to their previous failures. Right now, 3rd parties are loving the Wii, both in terms of developing for it and selling assloads of games on it, and the fact that the Wii is the cheapest to develop for AND will soon have the highest installed worldwide userbase ensures that even if Sony and MS bring out their own motion-sensing controllers, it won't change the fact that the Wii will still get the lion's share of games because it costs so much less to develop for.