Topic: Wii could've had Flow, but N didn't approach and Sony had moneyhats

[Kairon]

We could've had FLOW!

Well, I think this is a combination of two things: Sony had money hats, and Nintendo wasn't going to run after a dev.

On one hand, you just have to throw up your shoulders and *shrug* at MoneyHats... like with SC3, for example.

On the other hand, you have to wonder whether Nintendo will attempt to do some actual outreach for indie devs. Sure, they've got the biggest userbase, the cheapest system to dev for, and they're Nintendo, but a little personal attention and marketting/PR/fake-smile buddy-buddy stuff never hurt did it? The fact is that Nintendo just doesn't COURT anybody...

... and sometimes I wonder as to whether Nintendo's culture allows them to court indie devs, especially when all of the power is concentrated in Japan and America is always playing Mii-too to Japan's steps.

So, to summarize:

~ Sony MoneyHats

~ Nintendo is sorta frigid

And now I open the floor for comments... (and hopefully not too many Pittboi flames against Nintendo).

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[capamerica]

Well actually the Wii did get it too, there is a flash version you can play in the Wii Browser. =P

In all seriousness, I don't know what the big deal about this game is. Its actually pretty lame. Then again I don't know what the big deal about Lumines was too. What is the big fuss over these games? Their really weak yet Sony fans claim that they're system sellers.

[Infernal Monkey]

If it were on Wii it'd be a tech demo non-game, but since it's on PS3 it's a mature, deep experience that expands the video game industry to reach out as a new class of art form.

[Pittbboi]

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and hopefully not too many Pittboi flames against Nintendo

I don't flame Nintendo. I criticize a lot but I don't flame. People who hate Nintendo flame them.

I don't think the merits of this game matter. Whether or not it interests you isn't really the point. From the article I read it seemed like the developer really wanted this game on the Wii, but Nintendo didn't reach out to them, whereas Sony did. This isn't an example of Sony using money to steal a game away from Nintendo, so I don't think it's fair to call out MoneyHats on Sony. Nintendo didn't court the developer; Sony did. The game went to Sony as a result. That's really all there is to it. It happens all the time.

What I don't understand is this apparent...almost contradiction to Nintendo's philosophy. They made the Wii a significantly weaker console based on already established hardware, and it wasn't just to make the console cheap and appealing to consumers, but also to make the console the cheapest and easiest to develop for this gen. To me that just SCREAMS "Indie developers make your games on the WII!" because Nintendo had to have learned from the Gamecube that the big name developers/publishers don't care how cheap and easy it is to develop for your console--they'll put their programmers to work and put their games where they want to put them, regardless.

It's small, indie developers that would REALLY benefit from Nintendo's hardware philosophy, and yet Nintendo doesn't court them outside of "look, our console is cheap and easy...I hope you get the message we're sending...eh? EH?".  It really makes no sense for me. If Nintendo doesn't actively go after indie talent and offer incentives it won't matter that their console is perfect for indie content, because Sony and Microsoft will make sure they get the games, even if it means funding them themselves.    

[KDR_11k]

I don't think indie devs need courting, most of them need any publicity they can get and since the PC market is declining in the US they need to get their games on consoles to reach a larger market and get their games on shelves in the US (not a problem in Europe, indie games regularly get sold in stores here).

[odifiend]

From the article, it sounds like Sony started That Game Company's studio for them.  The word incubation was used.  There is a difference between reaching out with encouragement and expertise and funding someone from practically start to finish.  Pittbboi is right - this isn't a case of money hats, in a traditional sense anyway.   Moneyhats to me is going to an established dev and buying a franchise or exclusivity for a game.  This is Sony's willingness over Nintendo to fund an indie dev.
It is great and very cool that they want to work with Nintendo but you can't expect Nintendo to fund studios of (very often) unproven developers - to take that risk doesn't make any sense.  They have done a good job on the front end to ensure an indie can afford to put a game on their console.  I hope Nintendo does assume the risk now and again when the project and the people can be a success.  Maybe that wasn't quite the situation here.
Since Nintendo isn't arrogant as arrogant behind the scenes, hopefully when the 'debt' to Sony is paid, these developers will make games for a Nintendo console in the future.
My question though is did Sony approach That Game Company after Nintendo expressed interest?  It doesn't really matter because the game couldn't happen on consoles without Sony but I'm just curious.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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and hopefully not too many Pittboi flames against Nintendo

I don't flame Nintendo. I criticize a lot but I don't flame. People who hate Nintendo flame them.

Criticize, flame, same diff...

As for this topic, isn't an independent game already being made and released for the Wii, Mercury something? The one with the metallic blobs.

[KDR_11k]

Mercury is a PSP and PS2 game IIRC, though there may be a Wii port.

[Smash_Brother]

Maybe Nintendo didn't court them because they didn't like the game?

I don't put it upon Nintendo's shoulders to "court" every last independent game developer with a gimmicky idea.

[KDR_11k]

Possibly. Flow looks nice and original but it plays fairly uninteresting, at least the Flash version.

[Kairon]

I also wonder if Nintendo, being based in Japan, just doesn't have the authority or flexibility in its US branch to do this sort of outreach that MS and Sony can do since they're closer culturally and geographically to these indies.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Artimus]

This game is the biggest non-killer ap ever. It's amusing for half an hour and that's it. Considering it's a flash game, that's great.

[Galford]

WTF is the big deal about this game?
I know others have said that, but I think it needs to be said again.

Having read the concept behind flow it's kinda interesting, but the game is fun for about 10 minutes kinda like Ico and SOC.
Oops... did I say that....

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Galford Having read the concept behind flow it's kinda interesting, but the game is fun for about 10 minutes kinda like Ico and SOC.
Oops... did I say that....

No, you typed it, now Google has cached it and it will be attributed to you forever.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I just played the flash version for the first time, and I agree.  It's neat, but I seem to have finished it (I killed the thing in the deepest level in my second form and couldn't find a way to descend deeper), and I don't see any reason why I'd ever need to play again.  It isn't soothing or especially captivating.  In fact, sometimes it was just annoying (the widescreen format does not serve this game well, plus the critter would move unpredictably if it caught up to the mouse pointer).

[Pittbboi]

I dunno...Sony may have provided just about all the funding for the project, but I kinda get the feeling that they had to. The PS3 is one MONSTER to develop for. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony had to offer up more of an incentive (lots and lots of money) to get Flow than Nintendo would have had to, seeing as the Wii is pretty much the perfect platform for indie content (or will be once Nintendo gets their online act together). I don't think it's simply a matter of Nintendo not being willing to fund the entire project like Sony did. I don't get the impression that Nintendo reached out at all. Which is a shame, because whether or not the game just turns out to be a glorified tech demo, it's still drumming up a fair amount of interest--interest that could have been in the Wii.

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Maybe Nintendo didn't court them because they didn't like the game?

I don't put it upon Nintendo's shoulders to "court" every last independent game developer with a gimmicky idea.

But when was the last time Nintendo courted any indie developer? This isn't a rhetorical question, I really don't know the answer. The only group I can think of is Retro Studios, but Nintendo didn't so much support their content as they...well, absorbed them completely and put them to work on Metroid games.

Nintendo is courting indies with their hardware. The Wii IS the place for indie content in theory --it's cheap and easy to develop for, something only indie developers actually care about. But courting with just the hardware won't be enough, especially when their going up against competition that is willing to throw more money at compelling indie projects, thus erasing Nintendo's hardware advantage. Nintendo doesn't necessarily have to do the same, but Nintendo has to do something more. Nintendo is not a small gaming house. Nintendo is a multi-billion dollar gaming company that is currently the only company in the gaming console industry that is turning a profit. Contrary to popular belief they can throw the occasional moneybag, and I don't think it would hurt if they did.  They don't have to throw moneybags at every indie dev, but couldn't they offer some sort of benefits package to small indie houses that meet a basic criteria? It doesn't have to be something like "hey, bring your games to the Wii and we'll pay for everything!" but, you know, just something to sweeten the pot a little.

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I also wonder if Nintendo, being based in Japan, just doesn't have the authority or flexibility in its US branch to do this sort of outreach that MS and Sony can do since they're closer culturally and geographically to these indies.

But Sony's also based in Japan...
Though, I guess Nintendo would have a more level playing field if they gave Reggie a bit more clearance to seek out talent like this, without hold Big Papa's hand.

[Kairon]

Nintendo actually has (or had?) a load of indie-ish projects in Japan. Marigul and the like. I suspect that whereas in Japan Nintendo's power players have the flexibility to get side projects done, NoA doesn't seem to have the mindset or clearance to be open to the indie scene.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
But when was the last time Nintendo courted any indie developer? This isn't a rhetorical question, I really don't know the answer. The only group I can think of is Retro Studios, but Nintendo didn't so much support their content as they...well, absorbed them completely and put them to work on Metroid games.

It's hard to say. Nintendo might be courting indie devs we don't even know about right now, but the stink rising from this Flow thing is nothing but this company drumming up some free publicity by pretending to be the victim by Nintendo not reaching out to them, even though it's not Nintendo's obligation to do so.

Furthermore, Sony is just doing its old song and dance of turning a mole hill into a mountain because anything which even remotely comes across as good news is better than the usual bad news for them.

Maybe Nintendo, like many of us, played Flow, came to the same conclusions we did and opted to not pursue them.

EDIT: I just played Flow: cute concept, basically a free-roam version of the classic "Snake", but the novelty definitely wears off. Furthermore, I don't know how this is going to control with an analogue stick as the game seems genuinely pointer-centric.

[Infernal Monkey]

As KDR mentioned, indie developers have no troubles at all in PAL regions. Super Fruit Fall, launch title, one person developed it.



Like flOw, it started as a Flash game. It's also completely boring and horrible, just like flOw. Data Design, another Euro developer just announced 13 disaster games for Wii. Nintendo America just needs to relax more. Same with Sony. I mean there's like 2500 PAL PS2 games, yet only a 1000 or so American PS2 games.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

Wait a second, I have never even heard of Flow! I'm not quite understanding why this is even a topic, is it some rinky dink flash game with a cult following or something?

[SixthAngel]

Once an indie studio accepts money to make the game don't they stop being independent?
Why would Nintendo give any other developers money, much less unproven indies, to make games on the Wii when they could use the money to fund more internal projects?  Indie games are extremely overrated but if you have the desire for them some will come because of the cheapness of development.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Once an indie studio accepts money to make the game don't they stop being independent?
Why would Nintendo give any other developers money, much less unproven indies, to make games on the Wii when they could use the money to fund more internal projects?  Indie games are extremely overrated but if you have the desire for them some will come because of the cheapness of development.

Nintendo has stated many a time that they WILL be supporting many indie and "garage" developers, starting with the developing kits being affordable and the announcement of original VC content.

I think S_B mentioned this, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons Nintendo is supporting developers is because they want to find the next big franchise they can bleed, er I mean, heavily market for years to come.

[Ceric]

I would like to point out the Nintendo Q fund.  Which FF:CC was actually made with by Squenix spinning of an indepedent developer for it.  From the explanations that I read about this fund it was made in specific so that a small Indie developer could come to Nintendo and get funding for their project if Nintendo thought it had potential.  That was my understanding.

[Smash_Brother]

True, but to be honest, I've not heard much in the way of information regarding Nintendo using that money for indie dev funding.

Maybe that only happens in Japan?

[Ceric]

Funds you normally don't hear about unless your really need the press.