Topic: Behold! Maturity!

[Kairon]

But can't this exploitive nudity speak directly to the nature of Kratos? Obviously the player is seeing the world through Kratos' eyes, his violent, self-centered, goal-oriented eyes.

In fact, I wasn't titilated at all from that video. It was downright absurd, what with the short duration and the statue's stream. In fact, it's an almost matter-of-fact tackling of sexual relations. He's a god. They're mortals. They do it in under 20 seconds. Next Scene.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Artimus]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
But can't this exploitive nudity speak directly to the nature of Kratos? Obviously the player is seeing the world through Kratos' eyes, his violent, self-centered, goal-oriented eyes.

In fact, I wasn't titilated at all from that video. It was downright absurd, what with the short duration and the statue's stream. In fact, it's an almost matter-of-fact tackling of sexual relations. He's a god. They're mortals. They do it in under 20 seconds. Next Scene.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

That's stretching it, I think. It's clearly supposed to be HI-LARIOUS. Thus the statue.

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Notice that even though those girls were lounging 'naked' in a tub that there Privates as dictated by Federal Law are covered. It's one thing to make a few parents mad it's a whole other to make the Federal Government mad. If they were uncovered it be considered pornography and all applicable rules may apply."

I don't think that's how it works.  I've seen HBO shows with full frontal nudity from both sexes and I don't think that was legally classified as pornography.  I don't know exactly what IS defined as pornography (probably something to do with touching) but there are R-rated film with privates being public.

Thats why I said may apply, at the very least it probably get AO which is like X.  It's sort of different for the medium.  In person that would be  indecent.  In a movie it's just an R rating unless its a focus.  Games I don't know because of the interact elements. (Even though in this case there is none.)  I wonder what the ESRB said in response to that scene.  Also since you pay for HBO there is a different set of rules. Ironically enough.

Edit:  Finished the rest of the thread.

*shrug*
I don't mind it in this case since I think that it is tastefully be done by strongly suggesting at it.  

[Artimus]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Notice that even though those girls were lounging 'naked' in a tub that there Privates as dictated by Federal Law are covered. It's one thing to make a few parents mad it's a whole other to make the Federal Government mad. If they were uncovered it be considered pornography and all applicable rules may apply."

I don't think that's how it works.  I've seen HBO shows with full frontal nudity from both sexes and I don't think that was legally classified as pornography.  I don't know exactly what IS defined as pornography (probably something to do with touching) but there are R-rated film with privates being public.

Thats why I said may apply, at the very least it probably get AO which is like X.  It's sort of different for the medium.  In person that would be  indecent.  In a movie it's just an R rating unless its a focus.  Games I don't know because of the interact elements. (Even though in this case there is none.)  I wonder what the ESRB said in response to that scene.  Also since you pay for HBO there is a different set of rules. Ironically enough.

It is interactive. That's why you're pressing buttons?

[IceCold]

Quote
ARGH! You Nintendo fanbois and your double-standards!

God of War 2 is rated M. As in Mature. As in, the rough equivalent of a rated-R movie!

Guess what? History of violence was a rated-R movie! It also had some raunchy sex scenes!

And?

The scene in this game is gratuitous. The ones in A History of Violence were anything but.

[Spak-Spang]

Violence for Violence sake is moronic in any movie, video game, and book and is pointless.  You can and should as a talented artist find another means to create your vision.

Sex for sex sake is moronic as well.

These are the kind of decisions that make MATURE games look as if we are approaching the lowest common denominator.  

So the hard question is how do you design a game that is mature but actually uses the subject material to enhance the game experience instead of just being there for fluff?

Personally, no nudity or on screen sex would ever be in my games, it would all be implied in the story off screen.  The violence would also mostly be implied off screen as well, except in special situations where the aftermath of a horrible battle or evil monster needs to explored to truly show the magnitude of the situation.  

However, I don't think I would be having you chainsaw somebody in half just to show the blood.  

[couchmonkey]

I've seen the video now and I have to lean towards the exploitation side.  I believe it was Deguello that mentioned fanservice, and that's basically what this is.  I don't think it's a really terrible thing, either, but I think Jaffe is hiding behind "art" for what is really "ogle some digi-babes".

Come on, he smashes into some secret room mid-level, and does it with two chicks for a minute.  It's a reward for finding a secret, like Yoshi giving you a bunch of lives in Super Mario 64 - only Yoshi is two women with ginormous boobs.  Just in case busting into a random room that just happens to have topless women in it isn't juvenile enough, the statue "ejaculates" (can I say that on TV?) during the scene.  I actually think it's pretty funny - but there's nothing artistic about it.

Edit: we could get into a discussion about whether or not humour or pornography are art forms...but nobody claimed this scene is artistic because it's funny.

[KDR_11k]

Why is history used to explain the naked women lounging about, but then conveniently ignored for the men?

'cause Sony is teh kidd13 (Sony decided to censor that, not the developer). They at first even refused to release GoW here because it "conflicted with their family-friendly policy". If GoW was on the Gamecube it would have nude minotaur action.

[Spak-Spang]

Watching the video I must say my original thought was this is utterly pointless...but I did laugh a little.

If the designers want to say it is for creative expression of the character, they can attempt it...but the reality is they just wanted to put naked women in the game.  Probably as a cheap promotional stunt, trying to get media attention when it is finally released.  Or perhaps they want to make a political stand about Mature rated games, who knows.

The point is.  The women are completely unrealistic in proportion and design.  Its just stupid.  And 100% exploitative.  I hope Sony forces them to take it out when releasing the game.  

But what really makes me think it was done to either make a stand for Mature rated games or for media attention is that it is basically the exact same Hot Coffee game that caused so much media stir in Grand Theft Auto in God of War.  

It is basically a rhythm game where you repeat the actions requested.  While off screen your character is having sex.  Huh...sounds real like deju vu to me.

[JonLeung]

Funnily enough, co-workers were actually discussing A History Of Violence today, in particular, a rather unexpected sex scene.

Is it really practically pornographic?  o_0

[WesDawg]

Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Notice that even though those girls were lounging 'naked' in a tub that there Privates as dictated by Federal Law are covered. It's one thing to make a few parents mad it's a whole other to make the Federal Government mad. If they were uncovered it be considered pornography and all applicable rules may apply."

I don't think that's how it works.  I've seen HBO shows with full frontal nudity from both sexes and I don't think that was legally classified as pornography.  I don't know exactly what IS defined as pornography (probably something to do with touching) but there are R-rated film with privates being public.

Thats why I said may apply, at the very least it probably get AO which is like X.  It's sort of different for the medium.  In person that would be  indecent.  In a movie it's just an R rating unless its a focus.  Games I don't know because of the interact elements. (Even though in this case there is none.)  I wonder what the ESRB said in response to that scene.  Also since you pay for HBO there is a different set of rules. Ironically enough.

It is interactive. That's why you're pressing buttons?

I think that HBO has some sort of rule about not being able to show (male) arousal or actual petetration. Same rules as apply for movies. There's a line between R and X there that's pretty strictly defined. Regardless, I don't really get why people are complaining about this. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. We can argue all day about whether its demeaning to women or not, but Sony has every right to publish it if they want (I assume the publisher is where the final buck falls in these decisions?)

[Ghisy]

Oh this thread made me laugh out loud several times.
Thanks, I needed a good laugh!!

[Deguello]

Hey WesDawg, at no time did anybody say Sony should not be allowed to publish this game.  And we have every right to discuss our wrongheaded appraisal of this "art" or the appropriate language with which to voice our disgust.

[Artimus]

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
Funnily enough, co-workers were actually discussing A History Of Violence today, in particular, a rather unexpected sex scene.

Is it really practically pornographic?  o_0

I didn't think it was? At all?

[Kairon]

Just because this is a "secret" does not mean it's exploitive or fan service or extraneous. Many "secrets" have worked to reveal deeper layers of gameplay and character: optional sidestories and characters in RPGs, useless items that hold text that explain backstory, the "secret" ending in ED, secret stages in action and platforming games, etc.

These are all things that players need to break down walls for, and then they're rewarded with content. That's all this minigame is: content that places Kratos' sexual dimension in perspective. He's an animal. It's entertaining and shows skin and has sexual situations, but since when does that equate prurient interests?

I mean, how about the scene in the Desert in Tony Scott's Dominoe? He literally described it NOT as a love scene but as a "f---" scene, because that was the nature of the two characters. They weren't making love, they were roughing it out in the middle of a desert, pumped with adrenaline and drugs (I think) after nearly dying in a big car crash. That culminated, and also revealed, the nature of the characters and their relationships. But it also had tons more skin than this scene, lasted longer, and was set to some throbbing rock music(i think). Did Tony through that in there for no reason, or did he decide it fit the story he was trying to tell. Did Jaffe look at this off-camera minigame and quick flesh flash as a way to jack off, or as a way to give the game a way to make it so that Kratos, the animal, is extended beyond violence and into other dimensions of humanity?

What's so special about 3D nipple anyways? It's actually LESS sexy than countless other suggestive ways to tackle the situation.

I just don't see any reason to look at this as something exceptional given all the freedoms we give movies with regards to sex, but also the freedoms we give to violence in games in general.

And then there's cultural ridiculousness too that exposes all this for the subjectivity it is... like I said for Clémence Poésy when it turned out the actress who had played Fleur Delacoeur in the fourth harry potter movie had a pretty almost completely nude scene in some french film... she's not a porn star... she's FRENCH!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[denjet78]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
... she's FRENCH!

You're forgetting one thing though: EVERYONE hates the French.

I'm not going to touch this game but what I will say is that no developer anywhere has even come close to developing a "mature" game. I've seen some story elements that come close but they always fizzle out before they get too far, most likely because they're afraid of alienating their existing market. Until someone can manage to get emotions right I don't think sex should even be entered into the equation. It's already used almost exclusively for pandering in every other form of media. Do games need to be infested with it as well? Beyond that, anyone else remember this old joke:

Q. What's the difference between art and pornography?
A. A government grant.

In the end it's all subjective anyway.  

[Deguello]

Quote
Did Jaffe look at this off-camera minigame and quick flesh flash as a way to jack off, or as a way to give the game a way to make it so that Kratos, the animal, is extended beyond violence and into other dimensions of humanity?

False choice.  There is a third option.  He did it as fanservice for his fans.  This is obvious as to the gratuitousness and pointlessness of the entire scene, along with the destruction of his "art" defense.  If he was just honest about it, there would be no problem.

Another fatal, fatal, FATAL flaw Kairon, is that you are equating Movies and Games, and using a Movie as an defense for a Game.  Can't do that, two different beasts.  Movies are movies.  Games are games.  Interactivity changes everything.

Quote
What's so special about 3D nipple anyways? It's actually LESS sexy than countless other suggestive ways to tackle the situation.

"Tackle the situation?"  What, was he FORCED to make this scene?  Like, the fans would have expected it considering something similar in the first game?  Like a "service" to the "fans?"  Seriously, drop the "art" angle.  It isn't working.  This is fanservice, period.  Tacky fanserivce at that.  This is exactly the same thing as Dead or Alive Volleyball games.  Itagaki says they aren't fanservice either.  He sees the "art" in having one of the girls slowly lick an ice cream.  It speaks to their "character."  Do you see how "stupid" this sounds, Kairon?  That's because it is.  Both Itagaki and David Jaffe use tacky fanservice to excite their core.  David Jaffe just makes better games.  

[Kairon]

*opens mouth to rebut*

...

*closes it*

You got me. There's no defending God of War 2 when it's put in the same category as DOAX2 beach volleyball.

/waves white flag

Surprisingly, the DOA movie was amazingly uber tasteful.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Surprisingly, the DOA movie was amazingly uber tasteful.

And an excellent movie to drink to.

[KDR_11k]

You got me. There's no defending God of War 2 when it's put in the same category as DOAX2 beach volleyball.

Yeah, I bet GoW2, too, is a game for girls that like shopping for clothes (I've seriously read more reports of girls liking the game for its characters and shopping than guys liking the game for its boobies. Guys can get better porn on the internet for free).

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You got me. There's no defending God of War 2 when it's put in the same category as DOAX2 beach volleyball.

Yeah, I bet GoW2, too, is a game for girls that like shopping for clothes (I've seriously read more reports of girls liking the game for its characters and shopping than guys liking the game for its boobies. Guys can get better porn on the internet for free).

You know that would be hilarious if it was true about GoW2.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You got me. There's no defending God of War 2 when it's put in the same category as DOAX2 beach volleyball.

Yeah, I bet GoW2, too, is a game for girls that like shopping for clothes (I've seriously read more reports of girls liking the game for its characters and shopping than guys liking the game for its boobies. Guys can get better porn on the internet for free).

The 21st Century, politically correct, San Francisco feminist inside of me weeps for todays women.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[KDR_11k]

Oh, come on, we know there's no feminists in SF. Transvestites don't count as women.

[Kairon]

Yes there are. They drive down from UC Berkeley.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
Funnily enough, co-workers were actually discussing A History Of Violence today, in particular, a rather unexpected sex scene.

Is it really practically pornographic?  o_0

Not really.. it's just the verisimilitude of the scene which made it so powerful.