Author Topic: Behold! Maturity! (Read 23696 times)

Artimus · « **on:** February 13, 2007, 05:41:42 AM »

http://kotaku.com/gaming/god-of-war-2/god-of-war-2-keeps-with-the-sexing-nsfw-236074.php

Apparently Websters has changed the definition of "maturity" from "of or relating to a condition of full development" to "the state which 13 year old boys just passing puberty wish they existed in."

Not that I have anything against nudity in games, but, well, it's hard to argue games don't try and exploit young adults below their rating cut off when silly stuff like this only appeals to young adults and people with that level of maturity.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2007, 06:22:32 AM »

AFAIK they wanted God of War to have all characters walk around nude (because, well, in ancient Greece that was normal, at least for men) but Sony objected to minotaurs with exposed phalusses and such. It's a game about a time when nudity was considered a good thing (hell, the olympic games had all athletes compete completely naked).

Also it's a game that's known for its explicit violence, why do you complain about a few boobies in there?

Shecky · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2007, 06:45:11 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
AFAIK they wanted God of War to have all characters walk around nude (because, well, in ancient Greece that was normal, at least for men) but Sony objected to minotaurs with exposed phalusses and such. It's a game about a time when nudity was considered a good thing (hell, the olympic games had all athletes compete completely naked).

Also it's a game that's known for its explicit violence, why do you complain about a few boobies in there?

Since chances are that the scene doesn't really fit and is just there to apeal to the group Artimus is talking about.

JonLeung · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2007, 07:03:38 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Also it's a game that's known for its explicit violence, why do you complain about a few boobies in there?

Because in modern North American society, watching someone cause bodily harm to others is more acceptable than looking at completely normal body parts.

Sure, there's already extreme violence. But, oh! It's a pair of nipples! Gotta punch the rating up a notch just for that!

Blue Plant · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2007, 07:23:54 AM »

Blood is thicker than nudity. Or something like that.

Kairon · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2007, 07:27:56 AM »

This isn't titillation. It's a stylistic choice.

Jaffe explained it somewhere... don't have the link on me at the moment, but the sex minigame allows for players to see that Kratos is an animal OUTSIDE of battle as well.

We don't complain about rough love scenes in movies like History of Violence, why should we complain about them here?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Arbok · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2007, 07:56:45 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
It's a game about a time when nudity was considered a good thing...

And silicon was the norm?

ShyGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2007, 08:43:39 AM »

If Manhunt2 doesn't have a rape minigame, Nintendo is doomed to be kiddie.

Deguello · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2007, 08:50:11 AM »

Artimus here is correct in his assessment.

This is the same kind of youth exploitation that PG-13 teen sex comedies exploit all the time.

Quote
AFAIK they wanted God of War to have all characters walk around nude (because, well, in ancient Greece that was normal, at least for men) but Sony objected to minotaurs with exposed phalusses and such. It's a game about a time when nudity was considered a good thing (hell, the olympic games had all athletes compete completely naked).

Ah, KDR, but see the double standard inherent here? Why is history used to explain the naked women lounging about, but then conveniently ignored for the men? Why isn't Mr. Warrior Man here seen with a long dong a-hanging out? Oh wait, that would offend the marketed audience of 13-16 year olds. Stylistic, my ass.

And why does all of this "historical accuracy" seem to neglect the fact that the earliest incidence of that particular statue, the "Manneken Pis," was 1388, a good 1600 years after the traditional end of Ancient Greece. Mistakes like this show true intent. Or that somehow this predates the proliferation of running water in the area by a good 300 years.

BTW: What the heck, 1 minute for 2 girls? "Praise the gods?" Mr. God of War is a flyweight, and those two women have low standards.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2007, 09:12:16 AM »

I love how this game is on the PS2. Because if you want to have boobies in a videogame the console with the WORST graphic capabilities is your best bet.

The reason for no wangs in the game is simple. The physics engine required for realistic floppage is too much for any current console to handle.

In any painting I've seen of ancient Greece the naked chicks are a little "meatier" than the chicks in the game. Plus ancient Greece was in the pre-boobjob era.

couchmonkey · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2007, 09:14:56 AM »

I wouldn't be surprised if Sony said "yes" to breasts and "no" to penises. That happens all the time, especially in the North American media. As far as I've heard they're not showing anything below the belt on the women either. All that said, I don't doubt the developers and Sony saw an opportunity to rope in horny young guys with this content.

Which was already in the first God of War, was it not?

Ceric · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2007, 09:50:29 AM »

Ok, here we go again.

Under Federal Law, you must have your privates covered here in the United States of America. For men thats a Penis and for Women its the Vagina. Most States have decency laws stating that a Women has to in fact cover their breast as well, ironically enough though Washington DC did not have such a law till relatively recent.

Notice that even though those girls were lounging "naked" in a tub that there Privates as dictated by Federal Law are covered. It's one thing to make a few parents mad it's a whole other to make the Federal Government mad. If they were uncovered it be considered pornography and all applicable rules may apply.

Now to the point I really wanted to make. I have no idea why this is a PS2 game. Personally if I was Sony this would be a game I would make sure got launched on the PS3. It's relatively niche but has great media attention, couldn't think of a better term. Known for looking quiet pretty. Could use the Six Axis during the little mini-games. The first had good sound direction. Also there are people out there that would buy a PS3 for the game. Its one of those "good" games the PS3 is lacking right now. Also its first party. If Sony ain't making the jump why should anyone else?

Kairon · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2007, 09:51:05 AM »

ARGH! You Nintendo fanbois and your double-standards!

God of War 2 is rated M. As in Mature. As in, the rough equivalent of a rated-R movie!

Guess what? History of violence was a rated-R movie! It also had some raunchy sex scenes!

Where's the DIFFERENCE? God of War 2 is rated M and any Gamestop employee who sells M-Rated games now to minors will get INSTANTLY FIRED!!! ... *huff* *puff*

Besides, the creator believes that the quick and dirty and selfish "unsatisfying for women" sex is as much an aspect of Kratos' character as his one-sided violence!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Artimus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:10:01 AM »

I take it most of you didn't even watch the video?

For some bizarre reason people keep using History of Violence. So I'll run with that. In history of violence when the characters have sex it's a powerful moment. The first time it shows us a part of their relationship, the second time it's a raw, frightened sex. Yadda yadda yadda. If you watch the video you'll see it's nothing but a silly, childish, immature piece of titillation. This thread wasn't created to complain about nudity in games, it was created because things like THIS are why video games are viewed as lesser than films. Titillation. Only horny 13 year olds (and those with like-minded views of sex) would find this makes the game better. It's like Duke Nukem. The breast flashes are so exciting when you've never really seen them.

This is what is passed off as 'mature' in the video game world. Is it any wonder no one takes video games as serious works? Nope.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:11:32 AM »

"Notice that even though those girls were lounging 'naked' in a tub that there Privates as dictated by Federal Law are covered. It's one thing to make a few parents mad it's a whole other to make the Federal Government mad. If they were uncovered it be considered pornography and all applicable rules may apply."

I don't think that's how it works. I've seen HBO shows with full frontal nudity from both sexes and I don't think that was legally classified as pornography. I don't know exactly what IS defined as pornography (probably something to do with touching) but there are R-rated film with privates being public.

Kairon · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:15:26 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
I take it most of you didn't even watch the video?

For some bizarre reason people keep using History of Violence. So I'll run with that. In history of violence when the characters have sex it's a powerful moment. The first time it shows us a part of their relationship, the second time it's a raw, frightened sex. Yadda yadda yadda. If you watch the video you'll see it's nothing but a silly, childish, immature piece of titillation. This thread wasn't created to complain about nudity in games, it was created because things like THIS are why video games are viewed as lesser than films. Titillation. Only horny 13 year olds (and those with like-minded views of sex) would find this makes the game better. It's like Duke Nukem. The breast flashes are so exciting when you've never really seen them.

This is what is passed off as 'mature' in the video game world. Is it any wonder no one takes video games as serious works? Nope.

Okay, better example: Monster's Ball, before the two main characters hook up, the prostitute and either Billy Bob Thornton or Heath Ledger... take your pick. The scene doesn't last long too, just like Kratos.

And I WATCHED the video. God.

And I'm not saying that God of War does it right. But that's what they were going for (David Jaffe said so) and they should NOT be lambasted for the attempt, only the execution!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Kairon · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:17:26 AM »

edit: double post

Deguello · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:39:20 AM »

Quote
And I'm not saying that God of War does it right. But that's what they were going for (David Jaffe said so) and they should NOT be lambasted for the attempt, only the execution!

Yes, they SHOULD be lambasted for the attempt, because it is quite obvious that they were NOT trying for historical accuracy whatever, due to the numerous blatant historical errors present in just that one clip. Or does David Jaffe's understanding of ancient history stop at the lack of clothing? Remember in the new King Kong, when that one guy in the screening room asks Black Jack's character where the "boobies" are? That's David Jaffe. You are defending that guy because you believe he is interested in "art." He isn't.

In Japan, they call this kind of thing "fanservice" and they are quite open and honest about it. David Jaffe is preemptively trying to hide behnd "art" instead of defending it as art, and this shows he actually doesn't believe it to be art. It isn't, because he isn't interested in art, even though he says he is. (you think its possible that he may not be telling the truth?) It's like holding a press conference to state that you aren't homosexual when nobody asked you in the first place.

In his departing speech from the ESA, former Chairman Doug Lowenstein had some choice words that are apt in this situation. He refers to some companies as "cut and run" companies due to the nature of their releasing controversial content and then bolting when the turd in the punch bowl is found. This is one of those cases.

Kairon · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:48:25 AM »

Who said ANYTHING about Historical accuracy? Not me! This game has giant walking collosi, you KILL Ares, and Medusa is a big FAT snake! To HELL with Historical accuracy!@!@!@!

Or are you gonna tell me that the 300 movie is a blatant exploitation of adolescents as well?!?!?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Deguello · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:55:23 AM »

You said it was stylistic. Is Nudity stylistic simply because it is nudity? No. The only defense, and this is one Mr. Jaffe used with the first game, was historical setting and time period. That goes out the window when you see the blatant inaccuracies.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:59:11 AM »

The way I see it is like this. If you want to put nudity in your game, fine. Slap an 'M' rating on it and away you go. But there is a difference between tasteful nudity and exploitive nudity (same with violence or profanity). In the scene in the video the nudity is clearly exploitive. I don't really care if they want to do that they should be honest about it. Admit it's exploitive or say nothing at all.

And nudity of that type isn't going to help games get accepted as a legitimate art form. It just gives Jack Thompson types more ammunition. I don't think we should censor that type of content but it would be better for the industry if developers actually did use nudity in a tasteful way for once. Right now "mature" content is mostly used by companies using controversy as a marketing tool.

The ideal example of tasteful nudity is when it's presented in a way that isn't sexual at all and isn't focused on. Like in a movie where someone identifies a body and the body is naked and you can see breasts but they appear on the camera for like two seconds. The shot was such that they didn't even care if the nudity made it into the shot. They were just going to film what's there. Nudity like that you hardly even notice if you're not a teenager. Tasteful nudity in a videogame would be "just there". Not focused on and not specifically meant to arouse.

Same with violence. Some films will have a brutally violent scene to demonstrate how horrific violence is. Some films show gore because the audience wants to see it. There's a huge difference.

Deguello · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2007, 11:03:25 AM »

See, it's so stupid it's making me and Ian agree on something.

Artimus · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2007, 11:28:28 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The ideal example of tasteful nudity is when it's presented in a way that isn't sexual at all and isn't focused on. Like in a movie where someone identifies a body and the body is naked and you can see breasts but they appear on the camera for like two seconds. The shot was such that they didn't even care if the nudity made it into the shot. They were just going to film what's there. Nudity like that you hardly even notice if you're not a teenager. Tasteful nudity in a videogame would be "just there". Not focused on and not specifically meant to arouse.

I agree with everything you said except this. There are many, many times when sexual nudity makes perfect sense and isn't exploitation. A story about a passionate adult relationship, for example, would likely need to include sex. If you're shooting that then trying to actively hide nudity is silly. Noticing nudity isn't the issue, it's exactly what you said right before.

Games get treated like teenage boy toys because of things like this. Video games immediately default to two things: violence and "maturity" when dealing with themselves. Take GTA. You have this brilliant idea for an open-ended world where you basically build a life. What's the immediate idea for the actual game? Guns and violence. I don't care so much about the 'art' aspect, but regardless of what the rating is, stunts like this are NOT mature.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2007, 11:38:51 AM »

"I agree with everything you said except this. There are many, many times when sexual nudity makes perfect sense and isn't exploitation."

I didn't say sexual nudity is always exploitation, just that non-sexual nudity is an ideal example of tasteful nudity. Exploitive nudity is pretty much always sexual so an easy way to do it in a non-exploitive way is to make it non-sexual. My example would be a good starting point for putting nudity in a videogame and not having it be targetted at 15 year olds.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2007, 12:29:34 PM »

The Succubus from Symphony of the Night has bare boobies.

News:

Author Topic: Behold! Maturity! (Read 23696 times)