Author Topic: Nintendo's Online Strategy  (Read 12019 times)

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Offline Ceric

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2007, 02:40:13 AM »
Look in the end if I can go and randomly face people thats great.  If all I have to do is trade my Wii Console Number once with a friend to play any game we both own.  Thats great.  If I have to trade a Friend Code for every game with my friend thats not great.
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Offline NeoThunder

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2007, 07:49:42 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
Look in the end if I can go and randomly face people thats great.  If all I have to do is trade my Wii Console Number once with a friend to play any game we both own.  Thats great.  If I have to trade a Friend Code for every game with my friend thats not great.


And if I have a game thats online and can only be played with people you know on your friends list, and you have nobody on your friends list...........wait, THAT SUCKS!!!!!

Ohh, and I guess the point I was trying to say at the top was that online preditors don't use "Just" an online gaming console to get to their victims, the story at the top says they exchanged information over the computer via chatting and e-mail.  Sure the xbox live was the gateway, but I think the computer was the enabler that allowed it to go as far as it did.
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Offline denjet78

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2007, 08:38:04 AM »
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Originally posted by: NeoThunder
And if I have a game thats online and can only be played with people you know on your friends list, and you have nobody on your friends list...........wait, THAT SUCKS!!!!!


Who says you won't be able to randomly match? Nintendo's offered that on most (all?) of their online games on the DS. Why would you think it would be an issue to do on the Wii?

Quote

Ohh, and I guess the point I was trying to say at the top was that online preditors don't use "Just" an online gaming console to get to their victims, the story at the top says they exchanged information over the computer via chatting and e-mail.  Sure the xbox live was the gateway, but I think the computer was the enabler that allowed it to go as far as it did.


They very well could though. If you can IM or voice chat, send pictures, video. Who's to say that even if a computer wasn't in the picture that the situation wouldn't have gone as it did? It is easier on a PC true. There are less barriers. Those barriers are dwindling on consoles though. You're basically saying that the PC was REQUIRED for the situation to have developed as it did and that's patently wrong.

Offline denjet78

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2007, 09:09:04 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: NeoThunder
And if I have a game thats online and can only be played with people you know on your friends list, and you have nobody on your friends list...........wait, THAT SUCKS!!!!!


Who says you won't be able to randomly match? Nintendo's offered that on most (all?) of their online games on the DS. Why would you think it would be an issue to do on the Wii?

Quote

Ohh, and I guess the point I was trying to say at the top was that online preditors don't use "Just" an online gaming console to get to their victims, the story at the top says they exchanged information over the computer via chatting and e-mail.  Sure the xbox live was the gateway, but I think the computer was the enabler that allowed it to go as far as it did.


They very well could though. If you can IM or voice chat, send pictures, video. Who's to say that even if a computer wasn't in the picture that the situation wouldn't have gone as it did? It is easier on a PC true. There are less barriers. Those barriers are dwindling on consoles though. You're basically saying that the PC was REQUIRED for the situation to have developed as it did and that's patently wrong.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention the whole "scare" (media overblow) surrounding Pictochat. They were as much TELLING parents that Nintendo had designed a product for molesters to get to their children. That's not entirely true but considering the open nature of the program it is a possibility. HIGHLY unlikely considering it's only local wireless, but still possible.

EDIT 2: Stupid "Quote" button...

Offline Pittbboi

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2007, 09:58:45 AM »
Quote



I don't feel online gamers are getting the short end of the stick at all. Isn't the point of online gaming to play games online? Trading friend codes may seem a bit harsh and controlling to those in the know but you yourself have already shown that there are ways around the system. You can simply go on message boards and swap codes there. How do friend codes hinder online play? You say it's more complex, but not for the market Nintendo is after. DS online seems complex, but it's online numbers DWARF Live. Why is that? 1. It's free but also 2. It's accessible. People understand it. Again, you just enter a number and boom, you're playing. That concept isn't hard to grasp at all.


Yes but you shouldn't HAVE to go around the system to play others if you're a gamer and don't know people with Wii's around. That is a basic feature that has been an online gaming staple on PCs for years and the Xbox almost just as long. There's nothing wrong with making it simple for non-gamers, but Nintendo isn't making it simple, they're making it harder. Proof is in the fact that with ANY other online system ever, you could do anything that you could do with friend codes and much more.  When I was a newbie to gaming and went online with Starcraft for the first time, I didn't know what I was doing, but the experience was so simple all I had to do was click a few times and I was online playing with my friends AND strangers. Nintendo's idea of making it "simpler" is just cutting out features, not making them more intuitive.

Quote

And why exactly shouldn't Nintendo try to change that? Why can't online gaming be for everyone? What you're basically saying is that online is hardcore, and always will be. That's a sad perspective. Live is not fit for new online users. It is EXTREMELY hardcore.


I'm not saying online gaming will always be hardcore, but I AM saying that it's mostly GAMERS that have made up the base of online PC and console gaming for the last decade. You can't deny that, and neither can Nintendo. Nintendo can try to make its online service appeal more to non-gamers by introducing their own games, but in the process of trying to appease a rogue market, they shouldn't cut out the PROVEN demographic, which is what they're doing. Nintendo can do whatever they want in order to get my grandmother playing online, but in doing so they shouldn't make it harder and/or impossible for me to enjoy a good online experience.

Quote

Besides, what's to stop 3rd parties from developing their own advanced features for their games? Nintendo has already shown that even the DS can handle most online features, including VoIP. Nintendo isn't going to stop them from doing what they want. The only "problem" anyone seems able to come up with are the friend codes.


Well, it seems to me developers are still having trouble doing what they want to do. Mr. Boon said Mortal Kombat isn't going online for the Wii because the structure and support just isn't there, and Square-Enix has said that they aren't bringing games like FFXI to the Wii because friend codes make MMOs impossible and are even in talks with Nintendo to change that. This is more than an indication that Nintendo is hampering developers with this system. This isn't the SNES days, Nintendo just can't lay out a lackluster service and expect 3rd parties to make the most of it. No, Nintendo is the underdog, and if they want people to support them they're going to have to lick serious boot. Laying out a bare bones and extremely limiting structure and telling 3rd parties to suck it up won't work, because developers just won't do it (And that has so far been the case on the Wii). You may say the only thing people complain about is friend codes and that may be true, but the friend codes alone gives developers and fans MORE than enough to complain about and, if Nintendo is STILL being so bullheaded about it when they know friend codes are universaly despised, well then that's a good indication of how much "support" Nintendo's giving third parties behind the scenes.
 

Offline Kairon

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2007, 10:58:07 AM »
Am I the only person here who see's this in a big picture where Nintendo made a conscious decision to focus its efforts on other things first and robust online gameplay second?

After all, even huge organizations can only have so much managerial focus. Nintendo's expended loads of effort on so many things this launch: low cost, high manufacturing, reaching out to non-gamers, re-publishing and emulating games from 5 (maybe more?) older, ancient game systems, reaching out to third party publishers, and most insanely difficult of all: a brand new control paradigm and the games and game philosophy to go with it. Is it any surprise that Nintendo wasn't able to fully catch up to expectations with its online network? (especially considering that such a field is quite a ways out of their core competency?)

I believe that Nintendo deserves all the criticism it's receiving for having a less robust system at the moment. But I also believe that this criticism should have in view the idea that Nintendo had other, more important, more blue ocean priorities it had to take care of first.

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2007, 11:11:01 AM »
"But I also believe that this criticism should have in view the idea that Nintendo had other, more important, more blue ocean priorities it had to take care of first."

If Nintendo has a better track record in the last ten years I would buy the idea of odd things they do being intentional and part of a greater plan.  But often when Nintendo has done something odd it has been a major goof on their part.  If those screw-ups were intentionally part of a plan then that plan sucked.  History suggests that anything Nintendo does that seems like a goof-up 90% of the time is.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2007, 11:13:49 AM »
How does History suggest that? I'd think that History shows that actually... it was part of a plan... and actually... the plan sucked.

The only period that doesn't fit into this "plan sucked" idea was the transitional period of the GC, which can't really be accepted as evidence because Yamauchi was on the way out and Iwata was on the way in, and Iwata was an outsider to Nintendo's corporate structure at that point as well.

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Offline NeoThunder

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2007, 11:15:38 AM »
OK, here's the thing....If people want to protect their children from online preditors....fine. Don't let them play games online.  If their kids are too gulible to online preditors, fine, don't let them play games online.

I have no problem what so ever with parents policeing their kids, I DO have a problem with Nintendo policeing me, why can't society wake up and parents take responsibility for parenting, IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THEIR TITLE....PARENTING!!!!

If Parents became involved more in their kids lives and payed more attention to them, I think these cases would drastically decline.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2007, 11:18:06 AM »
IF parent's became more involved in their kids lives.

IF

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Offline Pittbboi

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2007, 11:29:15 AM »
Quote

Am I the only person here who see's this in a big picture where Nintendo made a conscious decision to focus its efforts on other things first and robust online gameplay second?


But see, that's just self-centered thinking on Nintendo's part. I would be more understanding of Nintendo being focused on other avenues if their efforts (or lack thereof) weren't making it difficult for third parties to do their own thing with online. But everything we know is pointing to that not being the case. Nintendo not placing importance on online is making it more difficult for developers, this is evident in the fact that we STILL have friend codes and developers JUST starting getting online dev kits about a week ago. Nintendo doesn't have to focus on online, I'm more concerned about how third parties approach the service (since Nintendo games aren't exactly known for stellar online play anyway), which is why it bothers me that Nintendo's being so bullheaded about it. It's as if they think that just because online may not be a main focus for their games right now, that 3rd parties can just suck it up and wait.    

Offline Kairon

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2007, 11:35:10 AM »
But they'd still need to work up all the infrastructure and stuff Pittboi. Even if Nintendo didn't use it for their games, it'd be a distraction from all the other stuff they had to pull out of a hat this launch.

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Offline Pittbboi

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2007, 11:43:44 AM »
Well it probably wouldn't be as bad if they didn't have to keep everything such a secret that not even GOD knows what they're up to.

I agree that Nintendo had to work miracles this gen. I'm just nervous about when we're going to stop making excuses for them. They're doing so much, according to you, but nothing feels complete. The wiimote still isn't proven, there are still no big games on the system outside of Zelda; third party support is still fickle at best, and people still can't find Wiis. The excuses are starting to become jokes. It's time for Nintendo to pony up, and they can start by obliterating friend codes. Even if all they did was announce that they intend to do away with friend codes, or that they're developing a new online system that is more third party friendly I would be willing to cut them some slack. But so far, outside of the wii remote straps, Nintendo's not admitting that they did anything wrong or that they're behind on anything. Heck, Perrin even had the nerve to say that Nintendo's purposefully rolling out features at a snail's pace so that we can all "get it". Right, like the news and weather are features so intense they would overload the mind if introduced at the same time.

Nintendo, we're happy with most of what you done so far, just admit that you have to make some adjustments! You would quiet so many of your naysayers if you just did that much.

Offline Kairon

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2007, 11:53:17 AM »
I agree with your last post Pittboi except for the obliterating Friendcodes bit.

I think that Friendcodes, in one form or another, are here to stay. What SHOULD be done though is to eliminate the double-lock-mechanism to them: both people shouldn't need to independently enter the other person's friend code in order to get on their lists. It should be a one-lock mechanism with an opt-in (and perma-ban-ignore-opt-out) option for the recipient.

i.e. Friendcodes should work more like cellphones that remember all the calls made to them (and can thus block certain numbers effectively).

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Offline Pittbboi

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2007, 12:02:39 PM »
Yeah, don't have much faith in Nintendo getting rid of friend codes either, and I was actually ok with them when I thought the Wii's system code was going to work as the friend code. But needing both is absolutely unacceptable, and having to do it for each person for each game is downright unthinkable. And the fact the Nintendo has yet to come out and quell our fears makes me believe that we're right in thinking that their plan for Wii online is going to be exactly like the DS.

But there was an interesting point that I didn't think about at all until Square-Enix brought it up: friend codes make certain online games literally impossible--most notably the MMO. In games where you connect to servers and NEED to interact with strangers, I don't see friend codes working in any way shape or form.

Any ideas?  

Offline Kairon

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2007, 12:10:56 PM »
Well, somehow I doubt that Nintendo's server infrastructure simply won't be able to support server loads the like of which an MMO would require. I'd think that this would necessitate any MMO type games to already be situated on completely different servers (ala PSO GC, or Sony's Network), and thus Friend codes would become a non-issue...

I personally want to see Nintendo make a centralized server infrastructure that internally could support games in a B.Net (StarCraft, WarCraft III) multiplayer style, or a PSO style at most. I don't see much success in the MMO market since PC's are perfectly made for those experiences and because WoW dominates casual and non-gamer MMO players so hard right now. I think that limited multiplayer, community-centered experiences such as Animal Crossing, Spore, and cooperative action/adventure titles like PSO are much more desirable, profitable, AND achievable.

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Offline denjet78

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2007, 12:16:17 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Yes but you shouldn't HAVE to go around the system to play others if you're a gamer and don't know people with Wii's around. That is a basic feature that has been an online gaming staple on PCs for years and the Xbox almost just as long. There's nothing wrong with making it simple for non-gamers, but Nintendo isn't making it simple, they're making it harder. Proof is in the fact that with ANY other online system ever, you could do anything that you could do with friend codes and much more.  When I was a newbie to gaming and went online with Starcraft for the first time, I didn't know what I was doing, but the experience was so simple all I had to do was click a few times and I was online playing with my friends AND strangers. Nintendo's idea of making it "simpler" is just cutting out features, not making them more intuitive.


It is more intuitive and simple for non-gamers. You just can't see it from their perspective. I can see it because I want simple, I want clean, I want easy. I sure as HELL don't want Live. That mess can stay with MS for all I care. Sony can follow their suit as well. They're taking online down the road of inaccessibility. I play games all the time and I find it inaccessible. The entire experience is just plain horrible. And beyond that I don't like the direction online has been taking as it is. I don't just want to play multiplayer online. I want new types of experiences. MS is on their 2nd generation with Live and I see nothing new, nothing interesting. I see hardcore online only. Obviously the status quo isn't working.

My sister would be close to what would be considered a non-gamer. She doesn't play very much. I can get her to play Zelda and a few other games but she just isn't into the whole thing. And she certainly would NEVER think of playing online. One of the reasons is she thinks it's too complicated because it IS. Funny how that works, yah know? But, she completely understands Nintendo's friend code system. Again, it seems complicated to YOU. You're market is a gimmie though so why should Nintendo continue to cater solely to you when there's a much larger untapped market out there? The only way they're going to reach that market is to make things simple and accessible to it. I know it seems counterintuitive to you but it's really not.

Quote

I'm not saying online gaming will always be hardcore, but I AM saying that it's mostly GAMERS that have made up the base of online PC and console gaming for the last decade. You can't deny that, and neither can Nintendo. Nintendo can try to make its online service appeal more to non-gamers by introducing their own games, but in the process of trying to appease a rogue market, they shouldn't cut out the PROVEN demographic, which is what they're doing. Nintendo can do whatever they want in order to get my grandmother playing online, but in doing so they shouldn't make it harder and/or impossible for me to enjoy a good online experience.


The proven demographic will play online no matter what. Sure they're making it a little more difficult (A LITTLE) for you because you're reasoning and understanding is greater than the norm. Should the internet have never been brought to the masses in the first place? Should it have been left the playgound of those willing and able to learn it's complicated secrets? You wouldn't even be here arguing with me if someone hadn't simplified the entire situation to where the average person could grasp it. And in simplifying it they cut out features because those features were, quite simply, unneeded by the masses and in fact only served to confuse them. Again, I don't necessarily agree with cutting all features but there certainly is a lot that is unnecessary just to play games online.

Quote

Well, it seems to me developers are still having trouble doing what they want to do. Mr. Boon said Mortal Kombat isn't going online for the Wii because the structure and support just isn't there, and Square-Enix has said that they aren't bringing games like FFXI to the Wii because friend codes make MMOs impossible and are even in talks with Nintendo to change that. This is more than an indication that Nintendo is hampering developers with this system. This isn't the SNES days, Nintendo just can't lay out a lackluster service and expect 3rd parties to make the most of it. No, Nintendo is the underdog, and if they want people to support them they're going to have to lick serious boot. Laying out a bare bones and extremely limiting structure and telling 3rd parties to suck it up won't work, because developers just won't do it (And that has so far been the case on the Wii). You may say the only thing people complain about is friend codes and that may be true, but the friend codes alone gives developers and fans MORE than enough to complain about and, if Nintendo is STILL being so bullheaded about it when they know friend codes are universaly despised, well then that's a good indication of how much "support" Nintendo's giving third parties behind the scenes.


If you want to argue support, that is one thing. I don't know the situation surrounding MK but it would be easy enough to get a game like that online. 3rd parties are inherently lazy though. They probably want Nintendo to code the entire online part of the game for them. As for FFXI, MMOs are the only type of game that friend codes hamper but considering their limited success mixed with how difficult they are to maintain it's not hard to understand why Nintendo didn't necessarily take them into consideration. Still, the system should be able to support any and all online games. That situation will have to be worked out. Hopefully without sacrificing the simplicity of the system though.

As for gamers complaints... Give me a break! Nintendo can't seem to do anything without everyone jumping on their ass about it. Wind Waker's celshaded. HOW DAREZ THEY MAKE CELDA KIDDIZ! They reveal the Wii controller. Almost UNIVERAL hatred. I remember. I was here the day it was first shown. The only thing that proves is that gamers will bitch about anything, with or without justification. And just because they bitch that doesn't make them right. In fact, usually they're completely wrong. You can despise friend codes all you want, no one's going to stop you. But you're so blinded by your hate that you refuse to see the good that they're doing. That's your prerogative though.

Offline Donutt007

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RE: Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2007, 11:40:31 AM »
 Doah...I hit the wrong button....

I thought I had a good idea, but proved myself wrong as I was thinking about writing it...nevermind...carry on

Offline WesDawg

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RE:Nintendo's Online Strategy
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2007, 04:07:55 AM »
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Your logic here is flawed. You imply that without friend codes, it wouldn't be easy to play online with friends, and that's just not true. With Xbox Live and even PS3, it's actually a lot easier to connect with your friends, because you don't have to worry about entering in each other's friend codes. And you can connect with people around the world just as easily through the provided system. Whereas with Nintendo's friend code system, if you want to connect with people you don't know, you have to deal with the hassle of outside means provided by various websites. Add to this the fact that it still hasn't been confirmed that you won't have to enter friend codes on a per-game basis, and that could possibly mean needing several codes per person for every game you want to play with them. I fail to see how that's easier in any sense. The friend code system isn't streamlining the process, it's just making it harder to connect with the world at large.

At the end of the day, Nintendo's going to have to choose between having a "comfortable" service, or one that would actually be supported.

Wait a second. I haven't played online DS much, but from what I remember hooking up with strangers in MKS involved hitting a single button in the game. Hooking up with friends involved entering their codes. The implementation was flawed in that you couldn't add players who you had raced online with, but it wasn't so bad as not allowing you to play ANYONE until you entered their friend code. Random matching was easy. Connecting with friends required some extra work.

With the Wii, I'm really hoping that the system address book is used too. The DS was designed to be carried around with you. Friend codes could be exchanged by meeting someone in person. The Wii doesn't work that way, and so I'm hoping Nintendo realizes that something needs to change. I'm hoping, but I'm not overly optimistic about it. If it does go the DS way, odds are I won't play online with friends very often. That's all there really is to it. I may play in some random matches. Random matching is fairly fun anyway, but I probably won't deal with the friends thing at all.