Author Topic: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread (for those who have the game tomorrow)  (Read 154892 times)

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #450 on: January 25, 2007, 06:24:01 AM »
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Offline JonLeung

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #451 on: January 25, 2007, 06:28:33 AM »
After Ocarina Of Time, Oracle Of Ages, and Oracle Of Seasons, I would've preferred it if the following games were called "Mask Of Majora", "Waker Of Winds", "Adventures Of The Four Swords", "Cap Of The Minish", "Princess Of Twilight", and "Hourglass Of Phantoms"...

Then again, MOM sounds like Zelda is someone's mother, WOW sounds like a happy expression or something to do with World Of WarCraft, AOTFS is kinda clunky and looks like "Attack Of The F*%!ing Sith", COTM looks like Circle Of The Moon, POT is, well, pot... and HOP is, well, a non-international House Of Pancakes, or implies a small jump...  >_<

Offline Artimus

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #452 on: January 26, 2007, 03:58:13 PM »
Beat this today! I didn't finish it by any means, never got the third armour or found the cave of ordeals. But I'm satisfied with it totally and likely won't revisit it to get those (not until I replay it again some day). I really thought it was a fantastic Zelda and it easily beats the pants off the other 3D ones. Probably my second favorite after LttP (which has the nostalgia advantage). Easily the most interesting story and Midna = best Zelda character EVER. I do have to say that it's time to make link talk, there's nothing left to do with his character unless he starts. And this game sorely needs voice acting, it's even worse that their lips move and that Midna does talk (in whatever language). It would really added so much extra personality. The characters are so well designed and the script so well done that it's a pity they didn't go all the way. The music compositions here were GREAT and it's also a pity they didn't do full orchestrations, a real pity. Part of me wishes they had built it originally for the Wii and included all these things, but oh well. The ending cinematic(s) music (all 10 minutes) is fantastic, perhaps the best music yet composed. I REALLY love the main theme variation they use (the Hyrule field theme, I guess). It matches the Zelda theme so well. And this game definitely features the best orchestration of the Zelda theme ever imagined. No competition. Awesome work.

As for the ending, I totally fail to see why people feel it was unfulfilling? I thought it was beautiful. All the major lose ends were tied up and the final scene is powerful. Spoiler: I really wanted Link to go with her and be Prince of the Twilight! I love her character so much. And that Zelda model is hot, really hot. This game really has about as good character design as any I have ever seen. Pity it won't likely win any awards because games like Gears have more polygons. And Okami may be unique, and very beautiful, but the graphical work in this game is superb. The art direction team cannot get enough praise.

Overall I think 9.5/10 is probably fair, but it's such a beautifully put together game with just the right amount of variation on the classic setup that I'd be tempted to bump that up a few percent (9.8?). Certainly one of the greatest games ever. Totally worth the wait!

Also, with the triforce at the end: He had the triforce when he was born, like Link and Zelda. Ganon is the evil, Zelda the good, and Link is the one who maintains the balance. That's why he's the hero. But these three people are merely three who were chosen (the chosen ones) to represent those three sides of the triforce at this time in history. Thus when Ganon died he lost the triforce, his time with it was up. The three factions always come together because they are the balance of the world. What is unique about TP is that the alternate universe, the Twilight realm, ends up with the evil triforce in it and thus the entire world is out of whack requiring not just the balancing of the triforce as in most Zelda games but the balancing of the two realms, thus the game being called Twilight Princess. Midna is the difference. In this theory (that's all it is I guess) Link (balance) sits atop the triforce with Zelda (good) and Ganon (evil). In normal life there is good and bad always, but never control of one. When evil threatens that the Hero rises and balances things. At least in TP this is how it is. I don't really think the Zelda games are all of the same universe. Some are, but most aren't.

And, as for names, I agree with SOME of those names. The main problem with it is that the games are THE Legend of Zelda so it's hard to make the subtitle have "the" in it too (i.e. The Wind Waker or The Twilight Princess sounds better, but not with the full game). I think Wind Waker just needs a different name. Twilight Princess works, but I have no objection to Princess of Twilight or even Twilight's Princess. I think Majora's Mask is fine as is, it doesn't sound odd at all. Minish Cap and Phantom Hourglass need new titles. They don't sound right and I'm against merely using items to name the games. The only item so far that actually works is Ocarina and that's because it's Ocarina OF Time and the third word helps a lot. Majora's Mask is different because the mask itself is a force and it causes things, versus an item which is used. Twilight Princess is ok, though. It's certainly the right title for the game, even if the wording is off.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #453 on: January 26, 2007, 06:15:03 PM »
"As for the ending, I totally fail to see why people feel it was unfulfilling?"

That entire paragraph concerned only aesthetics.  Our gripes go beyond glam and glitz.  No amount of story or artwork compares to the actual minutes/hours of gameplay one experiences in Zelda.  The story and artwork don't challenge us, they're not our obstacles in the adventure.  It's the gameplay, and that's what we're bringing to attention.

TP stands on the shoulders of too many giants.  It's a very refined blade but the blacksmiths have gotten used to making this type.  Compare the evolution from Ocarina to TP, to Zelda1 to Ocarina.  The weapon hasn't changed much in this half of the franchise's life.  It's time to craft a new one.  TP is a fanservice game used to sell Wii's.  um lol  
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Offline Artimus

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #454 on: January 26, 2007, 07:23:58 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Professional 666
"As for the ending, I totally fail to see why people feel it was unfulfilling?"

That entire paragraph concerned only aesthetics.  Our gripes go beyond glam and glitz.  No amount of story or artwork compares to the actual minutes/hours of gameplay one experiences in Zelda.  The story and artwork don't challenge us, they're not our obstacles in the adventure.  It's the gameplay, and that's what we're bringing to attention.

TP stands on the shoulders of too many giants.  It's a very refined blade but the blacksmiths have gotten used to making this type.  Compare the evolution from Ocarina to TP, to Zelda1 to Ocarina.  The weapon hasn't changed much in this half of the franchise's life.  It's time to craft a new one.  TP is a fanservice game used to sell Wii's.  um lol


I addressed character design in that paragraph but not in relation to the ending. And I made comments about why I liked it as well (I can say more if you want). Especially the part about Midna. I thought the story was totally satisfying. Boss battle perhaps a tad too easy, but otherwise fine. I don't see what was disappointing about the gameplay, then?

TP is far better than Ocarina. It has so much more energy and personality than the dreary (and heftily overpraised) Ocarina. You can't compare Zelda to Ocarina and Ocarina to TP because they're not even operating in the same realm. That's one of the most pointless comparisons in history. The comparison you want is Zelda to LttP (or Minish Cap? LOL). LttP is definitely a jump over the first game, it's also the best of the series. So what? There's not that much in Ocarina that changed other than what had to due to the dimension addition. Ocarina is like a Big Mac and TP is a filet mignon. Better in every single way.

Offline Smoke39

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #455 on: January 26, 2007, 09:05:35 PM »
Majora's Mask ftw
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Offline mantidor

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #456 on: January 27, 2007, 06:33:15 AM »
TP is slightly better than Ocarina but not by much, and Ocarina had way more personality, the time travel aspect was much more engaging than the the twilight/normal world. Ocarina even though it seemed almost a carbon  copy of LttP, and without counting the jump to 3D, its more original than TP compared to Ocarina.

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Offline Ceric

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #457 on: January 27, 2007, 06:51:50 AM »
On the ending it didn't tie up what Midna was doing and whether Link hooks-up with his earlier love interest in the game.  AKA Two of the four things I cared about.
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Offline Artimus

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #458 on: January 27, 2007, 07:03:11 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
On the ending it didn't tie up what Midna was doing and whether Link hooks-up with his earlier love interest in the game.  AKA Two of the four things I cared about.


How did it not tie Midna up? She loves Link but knows keeping the "link" between the two worlds open will put the world at risk. So she sacrifices her love for the better of the world. Thus her tear breaks the mirror. Thus she goes to tell Link but can't, and says nothing. And as for the love interesting thing, it's clear that Link fell in love with Midna as well. It's obvious Ilia still likes him, and I'm sure he likes her, but he clearly feels the most for Midna. Thus we don't see him return home but see him riding Epona across the fields alone. Whether he ends up with Ilia or not is irrelevant (he probably does) because, like Midna, he had to lose the one he loved for the world's safety. This is why it's such a beautiful game! I actually think Nintendo out arted their general audience. They made a beautiful epic game with an ending too subtle and artistic for many of its players. But that's why I love it. It says everything without needing to show everything.

Offline Mario

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #459 on: January 27, 2007, 01:34:22 PM »
She could have easily broke the mirror and stayed in that world, but she wanted Link to stop her and he didn't, which means Link didn't love her. He clearly feels more for Ilia but i'm starting to think maybe he just didn't care about any of them and is more interested in finding another world to save. That's my interpretation anyway.

Offline MysticGohan

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #460 on: January 27, 2007, 01:39:05 PM »
hmmm... Dunno. Link did Leave Illia after leaving the Village with Epona, It's obvious Link has "other" things on his mind in the end. But will the sequel pickup?  
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Offline Artimus

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #461 on: January 27, 2007, 02:00:29 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
She could have easily broke the mirror and stayed in that world, but she wanted Link to stop her and he didn't, which means Link didn't love her. He clearly feels more for Ilia but i'm starting to think maybe he just didn't care about any of them and is more interested in finding another world to save. That's my interpretation anyway.


No. She is her people's princess. Just like Zelda wouldn't leave Hyrule, she couldn't stay. She made her choice and he couldn't have stopped her. Though, really, we're debating the feelings of a character without any feelings. Link isn't even a character, really. He's just a stand in for us to use as we play the game. If they want to use him as a character he needs to be one who does more than look blankly around (even if he does so with more personality here than ever before). I laughed a little when she got transformed and asked if he was speechless due to her beauty. Um...he never talks (I think that was intentionally a joke).

Offline Bartman3010

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #462 on: January 27, 2007, 02:21:29 PM »
Did Iila look a little pregnant at the end there? Or maybe my eyes are playing tricks?
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #463 on: January 27, 2007, 02:27:07 PM »
I got a problem, I'm stuck in the Water Temple. I got the first flow of water down the stairs, but I don't know how to raise the water any higher so that I can cross the white bridge in the room wiht the first 3 rotating platforms on chains. I also don't know how to get the other room with platforms hanging from chains to start spinning, other than to figure out how to get the 2nd flow of water down the stairs to raise the water level to a point where you won't die if you fall.

Anybody have a minimalist tip on how to solve my problem with out having to explain the whole thing?

Offline MysticGohan

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #464 on: January 27, 2007, 02:38:30 PM »
hmmmm... BnM have you got the claw shot yet? with that you could gain access to making the water level rise. Have you met the sub boss? Seeing that you have of of the waters flowing down stairs (you did rotate the stairs) in the position where the water flows downstairs? Which will grant you access further to where you need to go.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #465 on: January 27, 2007, 03:11:03 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: MysticGohan
hmmmm... BnM have you got the claw shot yet? with that you could gain access to making the water level rise. Have you met the sub boss? Seeing that you have of of the waters flowing down stairs (you did rotate the stairs) in the position where the water flows downstairs? Which will grant you access further to where you need to go.
Yeah I did all that already, but that only leads me to a room with hanging platforms that don't rotate around the room and a bottomless pitt beneath. I have no idea how to get across, so I decided to take a break and come back to it later. I could move over to one of the non-hanging platforms, but thats where I got stuck. I couldn't even get back to the hanging platform I started on.

I'm tempted to look it up in a walkthrough guide, but I'm afraid I might read more than I want to know. I just need a hint as to what to do, so that I can move on and beat this temple.

edit: nevermind I figured it out. I didn't know that I could grapple claw the ivy on the walls.  

Offline IceCold

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #466 on: January 27, 2007, 04:09:55 PM »
Stop acting like you're different people.
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Offline Caliban

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #467 on: January 27, 2007, 04:22:19 PM »
A few days ago I finished my second runthrough of this game, took me approximately 21 hours, one or 2 extra hearts aside from the ones given by bosses, and all of the hidden skills. I could have finished the game under 20 hours, but 2 temples Sky and Time temples were in my mind kind of forgotten how to beat them quickly.

My veredict, TP is still a delicious game.

Offline MysticGohan

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #468 on: January 27, 2007, 04:58:37 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold
Stop acting like you're different people.


That's because we are, stop being paranoid :p or do you want what happened to John Lennon? hehe
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Offline mantidor

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #469 on: January 27, 2007, 05:30:24 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
She could have easily broke the mirror and stayed in that world, but she wanted Link to stop her and he didn't, which means Link didn't love her. He clearly feels more for Ilia but i'm starting to think maybe he just didn't care about any of them and is more interested in finding another world to save. That's my interpretation anyway.


No. She is her people's princess. Just like Zelda wouldn't leave Hyrule, she couldn't stay. She made her choice and he couldn't have stopped her. Though, really, we're debating the feelings of a character without any feelings. Link isn't even a character, really. He's just a stand in for us to use as we play the game. If they want to use him as a character he needs to be one who does more than look blankly around (even if he does so with more personality here than ever before). I laughed a little when she got transformed and asked if he was speechless due to her beauty. Um...he never talks (I think that was intentionally a joke).


Thats not true, he talks plenty, otherwise at least one NPC would've mentioned it, they never put his speech explicitly because its supposed to be your own. Its the same reason why the whole link/midna/illia debate doesn't make much sense, Nintendo did a pretty good job by making Link empty as a character, any implications about him, his feelings or personality is just your own personal projections Midna wasnt that hot really, get over it...






ok, maybe a little
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Offline Artimus

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #470 on: January 27, 2007, 06:05:41 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Thats not true, he talks plenty, otherwise at least one NPC would've mentioned it, they never put his speech explicitly because its supposed to be your own. Its the same reason why the whole link/midna/illia debate doesn't make much sense, Nintendo did a pretty good job by making Link empty as a character, any implications about him, his feelings or personality is just your own personal projections Midna wasnt that hot really, get over it...


Except that there are MANY times when he isn't us. We have no feelings for Ilia at the start, but he does. Heck, do we ever have feelings for Ilia other than "she seems nice"? Link clearly is a character in his own right but he's severely damaged by them never letting him talk. I understand the history and tradition of Link as the silent hero but that's the only reason not to make him talk. Yes voice casting him would be damn near impossible, but that just means they need to get it right. Having Link talk isn't going to make him hard to identify, not if he's well written.  

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #471 on: January 28, 2007, 01:54:55 AM »
"Link clearly is a character in his own right but he's severely damaged by them never letting him talk."

*shakes head with hand over face*

Link being a mute has absolutely nothing to do with tradition, considering Aonuma and Miyamoto have explained their decision MANY times...We are supposed to be in the shoes of Link, that is all...

"Except that there are MANY times when he isn't us. We have no feelings for Ilia at the start, but he does."

Good grief, this is just ridiculous...Are we supposed to play as Link from when he is a baby up to the point where Twilight Princess starts just so we can see how the feelings between the two lovebirds blooms?  And holy crap, do you not understand about how emotions like love work?  "Link loves this character, so we should too, right?"  Um, no...

How would having Link talk help anything besides tearing the player away from the character?  I would much rather take the "inconsistencies" with the player actually being Link over a complete trashing of the already perfect formula...
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Offline matt oz

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RE: Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #472 on: January 28, 2007, 03:37:20 AM »
If you don't want Link to talk, then turn off the voice acting when they make him talk.

Problem solved, everyone's happy.
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Offline Artimus

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #473 on: January 28, 2007, 04:58:27 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: matt oz
If you don't want Link to talk, then turn off the voice acting when they make him talk.

Problem solved, everyone's happy.


Well, let me be clear that I don't mean voice acting (as much as it would be good for the Zelda series and add personality) but actual dialogue for Link. He currently has none and it's kind of silly considering the series has moved away from its roots to deeper storytelling.

I don't see how having characters speak to someone who never replies makes the game more immersive. If he's well written then we will identify with him regardless of whether or not he has dialogue.

Offline Ceric

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RE:Twilight Princess Spoiler Discussion Thread
« Reply #474 on: January 28, 2007, 05:12:40 AM »
Their would still be the text.  If Link talked at all then voice be fine.  But he doesn't have spoken dialog to begin with.  So when you think about he has more voice work with his grunts then he has actual lines.
Also on the Midna thing I knew what was explained but I meant more inline with when she was actually back in the Twilight Realm.
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