Topic: VC, GC games and the classic controller (and why Nintendo is stupid)

[mantidor]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=148658


"GameCube games are played with GameCube pads. Can they be played with the Classic controller too, for those who don't actually have any GC pads?

Nintendo: Nintendo GameCube games can only be played using Nintendo GameCube controllers. The Classic Controller will not work on these games. "


urgh... for us the people who hated the classic controller, we just assume that it ended up like a bad rip off of the bad rip off that the playstation controller was in order to be compatible with GC games, but now we are being revealed that is not such the case. So I want to know why the hell Nintendo didn't just use a N64 controller as the classic controller when its obvious it works for every single console in the VC perfectly. Whats the point in two analogs sticks and clickable shoulder pads if GC games are out of the question? ARGH, Nintendo pisses me off so much sometimes.
/rant

so what do you think?, I really hope some third party gets a clue and releases a N64 pad because is the most obvious choice for a VC game, and that Nintendo gets ZERO sales of its classic controller for being so damn short-sighted.

 

[Kairon]

Agree on the N64 pad classic. I'd buy that.

Agree on the Classic controller having two analog sticks but not playing GC games. WTH?!?! That is KA-STOOPID!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[UltimatePartyBear]

I thought the classic controller's shoulder buttons were just digital buttons, so I've been thinking they wouldn't be that great for Gamecube games in the first place.  In fact, I've had my doubts about the classic controllers being used with Gamecube games for a while simply because of the supposed nature of the Gamecube compatibility.  It seems like when the Wii is in Gamecube mode it behaves exactly like a Gamecube.  That means it isn't going to attempt to communicate with Wii controllers at all.  In spite of that, I was hoping Nintendo would find a way around the problems, perhaps by making the Wii controllers capable of communicating like Wavebirds, but I guess that wasn't feasible.

I guess I should find a store that's trying to offload old Gamecube accessories and stock up on controllers.

[couchmonkey]

Everything should have been compatible together, but I'll survive.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Pisses you off sometimes? Seems to be a common occurence with you, anyway this is not a big deal. My guess is that they basically took the guts of the GC and put it into the Wii without changing it to take advantage of the Wiicontroller. In regards to the controller having a 2nd analog stick, I think that was put in for developers that may want to use the classic controller for new games as was stated in the past (or maybe to have some PS1 games on VC?).

[mantidor]

hahaha ps1 games on the VC? are you serious? when is about defending nintendo from their stupid decisions some of you push things a bit too far.

[Ian Sane]

That is pretty stupid.  I don't know how this company f*cks up such routine obvious sh!t so often.

My theory is that the classic controller was an afterthought and whoever was assigned the task of designing it really doesn't know much about videogames.  They just looked at the PS2 controller and used that model since it's so popular.  They probably don't know that NONE of the VC games were designed with a Dualshock design in mind and that an N64 design would be perfect.  Though the classic controller can work with new Wii games so part of the design may have been for that.

Requiring Cube controllers for Cube games just seems incredibly sloppy and it effectively kills the feature since only people who already have a Cube will have Cube controllers.  The whole draw of the PS2 backwards compatibility is that if you never owned a Playstation you can just buy the PS2 and you're set.  Once you have to buy FOUR MORE CONTROLLERS it goes from a mass market idea to a hardcore gamer idea.  I'm wondering though if perhaps this was intentional with Nintendo hoping to sell Cube controllers to new Wii owners.

Sloppy stupid screwups for no reason - the very thing I think sunk the Cube worse than anything.  Though I don't think it's quite as important this time since the PS3 is such a joke.  Still ever since we first saw the "Revolution" in its black colour, DVD playback, and Gamecube backwards compatibility the typical Nintendo screw-ups have started to pile on and pretty much all of the things I praised Nintendo for doing then have disappeared.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
hahaha ps1 games on the VC? are you serious? when is about defending nintendo from their stupid decisions some of you push things a bit too far.

Considering every descision is stupid with you, it gets tiresome. I only threw out the PS1 games as a possible example (and it is not far fetched considering 360 will get games like Symphony of the night) ALONG with the fact that Nintendo created the controller for 3rd parties to use for porting their games (maybe for alternate control methods)?  

[Requiem]

I don't think the problem is as simple to solve as you all might expect. That said, I agree with you Ian.

[Spak-Spang]

This frustrates me...but I understand it.  The virtual Console Pad isn't exactly the Gamecube Pad.

I am sad I have to get virtual console controllers and new gamecube controllers, but oh well.

[vudu]

Why not focus on the good instead of the bad?

Quote
Games that are downloaded can be stored either to the Wii's internal memory (512MB) or onto SD cards, which plug into the SD slot on the front of the Wii. In addition the console also stores a history of all of your downloads so that if you have to delete any VC games for any reason you could re-download them for free at a later date.

Quote
Each Virtual Console game downloaded will come with a digital instruction manual.

Quote
Wii points can also be bought online via the Wii Shop using all major credit cards and will be credited to your account.

Those are all great things that (AFAIK) haven't been previously confirmed.

[decoyman]

Agreed, they might as well just have added some compatibility in. But one thing you're forgetting:

The Classic controller is made for use with Wii games too. Fire Emblem was set up this way at the recent Nintendo World event.

Your original point still stands, but people are making it out like the classic controller is going to be useless, and it's not.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
This frustrates me...but I understand it.  The virtual Console Pad isn't exactly the Gamecube Pad.

I am sad I have to get virtual console controllers and new gamecube controllers, but oh well.

I really think it all came down to cost, like I said I would not be surprised if they basically included a GC into the Wii and did not make any modifications to it to keep down cost. Virtual Controller was created as a way to introduce developers to Wii who were afraid to utilize the Wiimote fully and to play games from their VC. Do you people honestly realize though how pathetic some of your examples of Nintendo screwing things up with are? No black color. No DVD playback. And not being able to use the Wiicontroller with GC games. Give me a break this bitching is getting ridiculous.

[Requiem]

I think Donkey Konga was the main reason to not allow the Classic Controller to play GC games.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Requiem
I think Donkey Konga was the main reason to not allow the Classic Controller to play GC games.

I dunno about that but honestly I think we are jumping the gun to harpoon Nintendo so badly for this because there may have been some specific technical reasons why they did not include VC Controller support.

[mantidor]

Quote
Originally posted by: decoyman
Agreed, they might as well just have added some compatibility in. But one thing you're forgetting:

The Classic controller is made for use with Wii games too. Fire Emblem was set up this way at the recent Nintendo World event.

Your original point still stands, but people are making it out like the classic controller is going to be useless, and it's not.

I did not know that, it makes it less short-sighted indeed, but Im really interested in the VC N64 games, which makes dissapointing this decision they made, in that case, apparently they are going to have a bigger focus on traditional new games on the console than what I initially thought.

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
My theory is that the classic controller was an afterthought and whoever was assigned the task of designing it really doesn't know much about videogames.  They just looked at the PS2 controller and used that model since it's so popular.  They probably don't know that NONE of the VC games were designed with a Dualshock design in mind....

I'm not sure if you're just angry or what, but that's the worst theory I've ever heard.  Are you suggesting that Nintendo got the building custodian to design the controller?  Or just picked someone random off the street?  Are you even serious?

It seems the classic controller is a meld of the SNES controller (which, I've heard you say yourself is the best controller ever) and the PlayStation controller (the most popular controller ever).  What's not to like?  You've been bitching for four years that the GameCube controller was bad because it didn't have the same number of buttons as the competition's controller.  Now Nintendo takes steps to fix it and you blast them for not taking a step back and using a controller that was designed for two generations ago.

You seem to forget that the sole purpose of the classic controller isn't to play VC games.  It's also meant to offer developers an alternative to using the remote/nunchuk.  If that alternative only had one analog stick and one set of shoulder buttons we'd get the same thing we've gotten this generation--third party ports with botched controls or (worse) no ports at all.

Give it a rest.

[Pale]

It's incredibly hard to rationalize a purchase of the Classic Controller now.  I'm not one to complain about the N64 issues, as I think it will work fine, but really...  If the Classic controller can't be used to play Cube games, so I still have to have my Wavebirds around, and both the Wavebirds and the Wii remote works with the VC games, why exactly do I need the classic controller?

Color me confused.

[wandering]

This news is indeed annoying.

Anyway. Time to rip on Ian.

Quote
Still ever since we first saw the "Revolution" in its black colour [...] the typical Nintendo screw-ups have started to pile on

Translation: I personally like black more than white, and so try to imply that launching with white and not black is a bad business decision, even though the huge success of the ipod proves otherwise.

Quote
Sloppy stupid screwups for no reason - the very thing I think sunk the Cube worse than anything. Though I don't think it's quite as important this time since the PS3 is such a joke.

Translation: I want to bitch about Nintendo's decisions and imply they're handling the Wii just as badly as they handled the Cube, while at the same time making it impossible for me to be proven wrong. I know! I'll say that, if Nintendo succeeds, it's only because of Sony's screw-ups.

[Ian Sane]

"I'm not sure if you're just angry or what, but that's the worst theory I've ever heard. Are you suggesting that Nintendo got the building custodian to design the controller? Or just picked someone random off the street? Are you even serious?"

I'm sure there are people at NOA that are involved in business, marketing, or technical stuff that don't have a real knowledge of past videogames and, although having enough expertise to design a controller, aren't familiar enough with the N64 to realize some of the issues of the classic controller's design.  We've seen this sort of stuff in the game industry before.  Mega Man Anniversary Collection came out on the Cube with the buttons reversed.  Obviously the people involved in the port didn't play the NES Mega Man games.  In Midway Arcade Treasures 2 a random select code in Mortal Kombat II doesn't work because they mapped the Start button to open the menu.  Obviously those involved weren't familiar with MK2.  It's not unheard of for companies to assign projects to people that have the technical expertise (ie: they know how to make a controller) but not the practical expertise.

I work as a programmer and sometimes get assigned to work on programs someone else designed for a business purpose I'm not familiar with.  I have specifications to follow and I have enough knowledge of programming to do the work but the client isn't sitting next to me to let me know if I miss some detail that they didn't think to tell me and I didn't know.  Nintendo's top hardware designers probably would have been involved in the remote and the classic controller may have been handed off to a less experienced team that wasn't that familiar with the older games the controller had to support.

Now if Nintendo is actually going to use the classic controller for new games a fair bit (they always acted like it was primarily for the VC and it is called the "classic" controller) then the design isn't so illogical.  Still putting six face buttons instead of four would have fixed the problem.

The real issue here is the requirement of Cube controllers to play Cube games.  THAT doesn't make sense no matter how you dice it.

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Sloppy stupid screwups for no reason - the very thing I think sunk the Cube worse than anything.  Though I don't think it's quite as important this time since the PS3 is such a joke.  Still ever since we first saw the "Revolution" in its black colour, DVD playback, and Gamecube backwards compatibility the typical Nintendo screw-ups have started to pile on and pretty much all of the things I praised Nintendo for doing then have disappeared.

vudu tackled the first part of your post, so I guess I'll take this. Wow, Ian.. honestly, I tolerate most of the other stuff you say because you back it up well and it's usually rational, but this is going too far. Give Nintendo SOME credit. Do you really believe that if the Wii succeeds it will only be because of Sony's troubles? Nintendo took a HUGE risk with the Wii - it's a do or die situation. Things which we criticised them for at the time are turning out to be beneficial for them. Don't try to belittle their projected success by saying it's because someone else screwed up. Nintendo deserves a lot of the praise here, and it seems like you don't want to believe that Nintendo can succeed without following your vision. It comes off pretty childish, actually..

[Kairon]

Uh... it makes sense to use GC controllers to play GC games...

Seriously, two things:

1. This is KA-STOOPID, and there's no defending it. KA-STOOPID KA-STOOPID KA-STOOPID.

2. This is a SMALL THING AND PROBABLY WON'T BRING ALONG THE DOWNFALL OF NINTENDO.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[King of Twitch]

>Each Virtual Console game downloaded will come with a digital instruction manual.

Great success!

It's funny how they set out to simplify games for the mass market, and now they have all of these different configurations, attachments, limitations, integrations, and combinations.  

[IceCold]

Don't forget derivatives and permutations!

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The real issue here is the requirement of Cube controllers to play Cube games.  THAT doesn't make sense no matter how you dice it.

Allow me to attempt to dice.

You can play your GBA games on you DS just fine.  However, when you do, certain buttons (namely the X and Y buttons) are shut off.  Likewise, the touch screen and second screen aren't used (for obvious reasons).  But the rest work just fine because it's a 1:1 match up between DS controls and GBA controls.

The same can't be said for the classic controller and the GameCube controller.  

-The ABXY configuration is completely different.
-The Z button has been moved.
-The second analog stick isn't the same as the C stick.
-The shoulder buttons on the classic controller aren't (AFAIK) analog like the GameCube controller.

While any one of these changes aren't necessarily deal breakers, combined it seems like they were enough to make Nintendo decide not to make the classic controller compatible with GameCube games.  Nintendo created these games and ultimately it's up to them to decide what to do with them in the future.  Chances are there are a lot of GameCube games that didn't feel right with the classic controller.  You can argue all you want that Nintendo should have given us the choice and I may even agree with you in the end, but it really doesn't matter.  Spielberg can remove guns from E.T., Lucas can insert Jabba the Hut in Star Wars, and Nintendo can force us to use GameCube controllers to play GameCube games.  (Side note:  of those three examples, which makes the most sense?  )