Topic: That next-gen itch

[Ian Sane]

"Can't we be fans without being fanboys (or fangirls)? FanBOY sounds so negative, or at least somewhat condescending."

I'd say a Nintendo fan is someone who likes Nintendo because they make quality products.  A Nintendo fanboy thinks a product is of high quality because it is made by Nintendo.

[Kairon]

I actually think that's the best definition I've heard Ian.

A Fan starts with a Nintendo game and, realizing it's good, decides to pay attention to Nintendo.

A Fanboy starts with a Nintendo game and, realizing it's make by Nintendo, tries to figure out how it's good.

Of the two, the fan is more generally interested and the fanboy is almost exclusively specialized, like people who write their college theses on specific authors, artists, or fields.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel

Quote
Err, this thread is going to retread points we've made a million times more.

I'll get right to the point, the Wii will suck dog balls when compared to
other systems in terms of graphics. That is the truth...

I fully expect someone else to say that graphics don't matter and gameplay
is everything.

So instead of waiting for another fifty posts I'll just push this thread to it's inevitable
conculsion.

Raving Nintendo Fanboy: Graphics don't matter, Gaemplay does!

Ranting Nintendo Fanboy: Graphics don't matter, art direction does!

Deluded Nintendo Fanboy: The Wii is simpler to program for, so developers will get graphics almost as good!

Blind Nintendo Fanboy: The 360 and PS3 games aren't much of a leap forward, either!

And with this plus random whiners, you can summarize every graphics thread that will ever appear in this forum.

It is pretty much a fact that there has been diminishing returns when it comes to graphical leaps from Xbox to Xbox 360 (Heck the racing simulations are good examples of that). The difference is not nearly as great as it was between the N64 and GC/Xbox/PS2.  So I do think people are fooling themselves when they state the visuals are a big leap over the previous generation, though that could change a bit down the line, but as of now the difference isn't anything to shout about if you are comparing games on 480p.  In a way this new generation has been a bit of a dissapointment for me, every other generation I almost drooled over the visuals, but not this one.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Can't we be fans without being fanboys (or fangirls)? FanBOY sounds so negative, or at least somewhat condescending."

I'd say a Nintendo fan is someone who likes Nintendo because they make quality products.  A Nintendo fanboy thinks a product is of high quality because it is made by Nintendo.

Well NIntendo does have a good track record when it comes to quality games and hardware (at least when it comes to durability), but I do see what your saying.

[ShyGuy]

Call me a fanboy, but when Miyamoto comes out with a game, I assume it's going to be good until I'm proven otherwise.

[Ian Sane]

"Call me a fanboy, but when Miyamoto comes out with a game, I assume it's going to be good until I'm proven otherwise."

That isn't a fanboy in my mind.  A fanboy can't be proven otherwise.  He will make excuses and defend a lousy product.

[JonLeung]

I love Miyamoto's work.  But did he do Luigi's Mansion?  Let me say that I think that game sucks.

But yes, just about any other piece of Miyamoto work is a masterpiece.

I'm a fan, if I like what I like and most of what Miyamoto makes happens to be what I like.  But I'm not going to defend Miyamoto or Nintendo if I didn't like a particular game that they made.  I might say "but they usually make good games" and still support them in general, but I won't lie about that one game in particular.

Fanboy is condescending.  I'd rather be called a fan.  (Boy/Girl sounds immature.  And no one says "fanman".)  But when people call me a "Nintendo fan" even that can be in a condescending manner, I'd say, "what?  So you buy a PS2 but don't want to be called a PS2 fan?  Why the heck did you get a PS2 if you don't want to be a fan of it (i.e. enjoy it)?"

Common sense is lost.

[Ceric]

Main Entry: fan
Function: noun
Etymology: probably short for fanatic
1 : an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or a performing art) usually as a spectator
2 : an ardent admirer or enthusiast (as of a celebrity or a pursuit) <science-fiction fans>

Main Entry: boy
Pronunciation: 'boi
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English
1 often offensive : a male servant
2 a : a male child from birth to adulthood b : SON c : an immature male <separate the men from the boys> <boy genius> d : SWEETHEART, BEAU
3 a : one native to a given place <local boy> b : FELLOW, PERSON <the boys at the office> c -- used interjectionally to express intensity of feeling <boy, what a game>

So in fun recap fanboy is:

An ardent admirer or enthusiast Beau.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
I love Miyamoto's work.  But did he do Luigi's Mansion?  Let me say that I think that game sucks.

But yes, just about any other piece of Miyamoto work is a masterpiece.

I'm a fan, if I like what I like and most of what Miyamoto makes happens to be what I like.  But I'm not going to defend Miyamoto or Nintendo if I didn't like a particular game that they made.  I might say "but they usually make good games" and still support them in general, but I won't lie about that one game in particular.

Fanboy is condescending.  I'd rather be called a fan.  (Boy/Girl sounds immature.  And no one says "fanman".)  But when people call me a "Nintendo fan" even that can be in a condescending manner, I'd say, "what?  So you buy a PS2 but don't want to be called a PS2 fan?  Why the heck did you get a PS2 if you don't want to be a fan of it (i.e. enjoy it)?"

Common sense is lost.

I'm not sure how involved Miyamoto was with Luigi's Mansion, but I personally found the game quite enjoyable and above all else unique, albit a tad bit too short.

[zakkiel]

Quote
Historic Nintendo Fanboy: Historically, the graphics have never won a console war.

Different argument, but I guess if we want to make the list complete, we should put it in.

Quote
The superior Nintendo Fanboy: I can predict exactly what will happen in this thread, you're all wasting your time!

Quote
Where does "I don't want to pay $400 for a console and $60 for games" come in? Frugal Nintendo fanboy?

These shall be added to the official compendium.

[Ceric]

Frugal Boy

[SixthAngel]

Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel

Raving Nintendo Fanboy: Graphics don't matter, Gaemplay does!

Ranting Nintendo Fanboy: Graphics don't matter, art direction does!

Deluded Nintendo Fanboy: The Wii is simpler to program for, so developers will get graphics almost as good!

Blind Nintendo Fanboy: The 360 and PS3 games aren't much of a leap forward, either!

And with this plus random whiners, you can summarize every graphics thread that will ever appear in this forum.

Is their any point I can make where I won't be belittled because you grouped everyone into negative categories where their opinions don't follow yours?

Unlike most people here I owned a nes but not a snes or an n64.  Xbox was my first purchase this gen with a gamecube a year ago.  I thought about picking up a 360 but I was not impressed by the graphics.  They look better now then a year ago but I still hardly see a leap from the great looking games of last gen like Ninja Gaiden.  There is no itch to scratch anymore.  A great parallel is Pixar, the fur in Monsters Inc.  sure looked cool but Toy Story is still an amazing looking movie despite being older.  The remote wowed me and is the only thing that has me even remotely (haha) excited about the new consoles.    

[zakkiel]

Quote
Is their any point I can make where I won't be belittled because you grouped everyone into negative categories where their opinions don't follow yours?

I'm belittling the tendency of people to say things that have been said 57 times in the last month as though they were delivering fresh steamy wisdom from the Espresso Machine of Knowledge. It may be a part of human internet nature, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make fun of it.

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel I'm belittling the tendency of people to say things that have been said 57 times in the last month as though they were delivering fresh steamy wisdom from the Espresso Machine of Knowledge. It may be a part of human internet nature, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make fun of it.

Sadly, we don't have much else to do but wait for more Wii news, laugh at bad Sony news, and when none of that pans out, we drag a dead horse out of the pile and have a go at it with our whackin' sticks (OMG, great Wii game idea!!!!).

I'm not a fan of it, either, as counting the days to the Wii launch sucks ass, IMHO, and it would help if I thought about it less...

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel

Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel

Raving Nintendo Fanboy: Graphics don't matter, Gaemplay does!

Ranting Nintendo Fanboy: Graphics don't matter, art direction does!

Deluded Nintendo Fanboy: The Wii is simpler to program for, so developers will get graphics almost as good!

Blind Nintendo Fanboy: The 360 and PS3 games aren't much of a leap forward, either!

And with this plus random whiners, you can summarize every graphics thread that will ever appear in this forum.

Is their any point I can make where I won't be belittled because you grouped everyone into negative categories where their opinions don't follow yours?

Unlike most people here I owned a nes but not a snes or an n64.  Xbox was my first purchase this gen with a gamecube a year ago.  I thought about picking up a 360 but I was not impressed by the graphics.  They look better now then a year ago but I still hardly see a leap from the great looking games of last gen like Ninja Gaiden.  There is no itch to scratch anymore.  A great parallel is Pixar, the fur in Monsters Inc.  sure looked cool but Toy Story is still an amazing looking movie despite being older.  The remote wowed me and is the only thing that has me even remotely (haha) excited about the new consoles.

Well you replied in a much nicer fashion than I would of, I really hate condescending BS like that post. I'm in a similar boat as you except I got all 3 of the last generation systems on or right around launch, even the PS2 when it first came out was pretty stunning (though not a huge leap from DC). I'm just not getting that vibe anymore, though I do own an Xbox 360 but that is for the game experiences. WIth the Wii however I am wowed, and haven't been this giddy since the N64 days .

[Nick DiMola]

"I'd say a Nintendo fan is someone who likes Nintendo because they make quality products. A Nintendo fanboy thinks a product is of high quality because it is made by Nintendo."

Ian, I think that is an awesome explanation of the difference between a fan and a fanboy. Over time it seems the fanboy branding has become very negative in nature, and I personally hate being labeled with it. I am a FAN of Nintendo above other gaming companies, but this doesn't mean only Nintendo can make a good game, or publish a good game. I am a fan of gaming which includes all systems, games and companies, it just happens to be that Nintendo is my favorite. I would say the only company I outright hate is Sony, but that hasn't stopped me from buying their system or games on it.

[Galford]

To Bloodworth

Granted I will give some 3rd party games look the same across all next gen systems.
When I say next gen graphics, I'm thinking Halo 3, MGS 4, and FF13.  All these games
have graphics we will never see on the Wii.  I've come to terms with that.  How well will
the Wii age graphicly, my guess is not good.=

To zakkiel

You summed up what I was trying to say in my last post.  This thread is retreading ground
talked about many times before.  

There really isn't any new Wii news so what else are we going to do?

[Ceric]

Make some up.
Like This:

Did you know that the shopping channel will tie into the home shopping Network?  It's only logical.
Also that some of the themes you may choice may be adult in nature?

or we could talk about accessories again.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Galford
To Bloodworth

Granted I will give some 3rd party games look the same across all next gen systems.
When I say next gen graphics, I'm thinking Halo 3, MGS 4, and FF13.  All these games
have graphics we will never see on the Wii.  I've come to terms with that.  How well will
the Wii age graphicly, my guess is not good.=

To zakkiel

You summed up what I was trying to say in my last post.  This thread is retreading ground
talked about many times before.  

There really isn't any new Wii news so what else are we going to do?

Wii will age fine graphically, as will the Xbox/GC along with PS2 to an lesser extent, we are no longer in the generation where horrible framerate and less than realistic visuals hampered games on systems like N64 (or for games that didn't have realistic visuals but still looked terrible). LIke I stated I think you'll see probaly see a much smaller gap in games that don't have to rely on the most realistic visuals to get the job done like SMG, Rayman etc. Heck shortly after GC/XBox/PS2 coming out N64/PSX were already severely dated visually, we have not seen that yet with Xbox 360.  I think a best way to think of the visuals is the graphical gap between DC and Xbox.

[Galford]

New things to talk about on Wii, here's an odd one.

The Wii interface is very similar to those used on many Motorola and General Instruments cables boxes.
I personally like SA's interface better, but Nintendo is going with an interface that is well known to many people.
I have to give them a little credit for that.

About shopping, I suppose it could be done.  Both WebTV and my cable company had a program where you could shop through the cable box.

To VGRevolution...

Dreamcast comparisions?  We will never see a jump like we did between PSX and PS2, but even the Dreamcast's best looking games are outdated by today's standards.  The Dreamcast became outdated the second the Devil May Cry demo went public.

[Ceric]

Actually I was pondering the idea of a Wii-enhanced TV and TV programming.  Simple things like being able to move the PiP with the Wiimote and maybe even complex things like hotspots on the screen.  You go into a TV channel and it would read input from data given to you from you service provider.  So if there where hotspots in the show you clicked one it would bring up the page for it or some other simple thing.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Galford
New things to talk about on Wii, here's an odd one.

The Wii interface is very similar to those used on many Motorola and General Instruments cables boxes.
I personally like SA's interface better, but Nintendo is going with an interface that is well known to many people.
I have to give them a little credit for that.

About shopping, I suppose it could be done.  Both WebTV and my cable company had a program where you could shop through the cable box.

To VGRevolution...

Dreamcast comparisions?  We will never see a jump like we did between PSX and PS2, but even the Dreamcast's best looking games are outdated by today's standards.  The Dreamcast became outdated the second the Devil May Cry demo went public.

Shenmue, Sonic, Code Veronica, Ecco, Soul Calibur all look fine even by today's standards. Yeah they are "outdated" visually but they still have aged pretty well, it is nothing like the N64 which was outdated the second the first PS2 game was shown because of choppy framerates, blurry visuals and super blocky looking characters/levels. Dreamcast was a generation ahead of N64 in visuals, it is just that PS2/Xbox/GC had a tad bit more time to trump it. I'll admit it is unfair to compare PSX to PS2 in a visual jump, which is why I think N64 to GC is much more fair and I still do not see that kind of jump from Xbox 360 and Xbox. I fail to see why my DC comparison isn't fair, I am saying Wii is like DC in visuals compared to the other systems. Yeah you can find better visuals on the other ones but it won't be instantly "Ugly" to play.

[couchmonkey]

I pretty much agree with you on all points, VGRevolution.  The graphics aren't improving as much.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
I pretty much agree with you on all points, VGRevolution.  The graphics aren't improving as much.

Which is why I purchase systems based on games, not visuals . I love my Xbox 360, but I'm not going to defend it as a being a huge leap from Xbox, but the games make it more than worth the purchase!

[Galford]

Quote
Shenmue, Sonic, Code Veronica, Ecco, Soul Calibur all look fine even by today's standards. Yeah they are "outdated" visually but they still have aged pretty well, it is nothing like the N64 which was outdated the second the first PS2 game was shown because of choppy framerates, blurry visuals and super blocky looking characters/levels. Dreamcast was a generation ahead of N64 in visuals, it is just that PS2/Xbox/GC had a tad bit more time to trump it. I'll admit it is unfair to compare PSX to PS2 in a visual jump, which is why I think N64 to GC is much more fair and I still do not see that kind of jump from Xbox 360 and Xbox. I fail to see why my DC comparison isn't fair, I am saying Wii is like DC in visuals compared to the other systems. Yeah you can find better visuals on the other ones but it won't be instantly "Ugly" to play.

I think I sorta kinda get what your saying.  The Dreamcast was an inbetween system kinda like the Wii.  

On paper the PS3 and 360 are at least 10x more powerful then there forefathers much like the GC and PS2 were 10x more powerful then the N64 and PSX.  

The reason the jump isn't apperant is we are reaching the limit of polygon tech.  I'm not saying there isn't more room for polys to grow.  I think then next jump in graphics will occurs when we have a system that can render polys, fracticals, and do raytracing all in one package.