Author Topic: Steven Kent: "Nintendo is like a wonderful old friend who has a drinking problem."  (Read 40802 times)

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Offline Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane Not necessarily in first but in a good position.  With a stable or even increasing marketshare, better image with consumers and the media, increased interest from third parties as a result of better marketshare and image, fanbase being content, and as usual a consistent annual profit.  I don't think anyone can get the number one position without number one f*cking up first.  So the idea is to be making a profit and being in a position where when the market leader goofs you can take their spot by default.


I still think that would have landed them 3rd.

Sony was going to be #1 regardless and MS's hardcore online strategy and ability to buy any exclusive they want made them 2nd.

Besides, in this gen, a perfectly managed GC 2 would STILL make last place.

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Offline SixthAngel

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Ian the biggest problem I find in most of your arguements is that you think that doing everything right is easy and that the winner doesn't do new things and doesn't do things correctly, they just don't screw up.  The screwups are a small part of what made nintendo come in third in marketshare during the gamecube generation.  After all Sony made arguably the worst mistake of all by having only 2 controller ports!  This was idotic and yet it still stomped everyone else into the ground.

Looking back its easy to point out mistakes but it is harder to point out why systems succeed.  The ps2 succeeded by making some new smart moves and by doing things that Nintendo simply could not do because it is a different kind of company.  Nintendo realized it needs to use the fact that it is a fundamentally different company to their advantage by breaking out in a  new creative directions that the larger companies simply can't do as easily.

When three companies are selling ice cream you don't defeat the other companies by adding more scoops (especially when your opponents have more flavors), you have to make something original and different like the Blizzard (its at Dairy Queen).

Offline IceCold

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Along the lines of what Smash has said, I'm just going to re-post what I said when the price was announced, and someone said that Nintendo should have released a $350 console which had all the features of the other two.


I have become 100% convinced that if Nintendo did such a thing, they would fail miserably, as much as people like Ian or Billy would like to think otherwise. I think I came to this realisation during the HD debate. Think about it; maybe we on this forum would buy it, and a few others, but who else would give a damn about the console if it was similarly priced the the 360 and PS3? I've heard Ian say over and over that they need to have a "traditional" console without the "screwups" of the N64 and the GameCube. His main reasons of why the GameCube failed are, I believe, things like a smaller disc, expensive memory cards, no demo discs and marketing. Really, the only thing that I believe really contributed was the bad marketing. Those other things are trivial, and even if they were fixed, I I doubt it would have saved the GameCube. So, what else did they do wrong with the Cube? Not much, I'd say.. Third party support was a vicious cycle (thid parties give half-assed ports, they don't sell, they stop supporting the GameCube, the marketshare goes down, third party games don't sell, etc) but I really believe Nintendo tried hard to secure more support for their console. See Crystal Chronicles (even the fact that they collaborated with Square was big), Capcom 5, when Nintendo leased their franchises to SEGA and Namco to improve relations, etc. Looking at the GameCube's game lineup, it had some brilliant games that deserved to be the best-selling games in the generation. Yet many of them went ignored, because the Xbox/PlayStation crowd just didn't care about Nintendo.

Taking this into consideration, if Nintendo made a console for "old school" (ugh) gamers, they would be buried. Let's say they went all out with a powerful (yet expensive) console, HD support, traditional controller, costly disc media, a full blown online service, and only hardcore games with sky-high production values. This would be, to put it lightly, a disaster. I have accepted that Nintendo just can't compete with the deep pockets and aggressive marketing of Sony and MS. They can't regain the traditional market. They're just a small videogame company with no other interests, trying to survive among corporate giants. Another traditional console, especially one with a price tag like that, wouldn't have a chance. They just wouldn't have much return in terms of marketshare, third party support, software sales and, in general, profit.. There would be nothing to differentiate between them and the other consoles, and if this happened, it would be a pipe dream to believe that Nintendo could come out on top. Casual gamers would go with the 360 or PS3 every time because of the mindshare that Nintendo doesn't have. Billy or Ian would probably say, at this point, that all they need to differentiate themselves are their usual amazing games. I would beg to differ, though.. Again, look at the GameCube. Nintendo's games, however much better they were than the competition, didn't make much difference in the end.

And that is why Nintendo needed something different. They needed to separate themselves, to innovate, to build momentum by being unique, and to capture the attention of those who wouldn't otherwise care. A $350 console would stop all of this in its tracks. It would be a complete turn-off to many people, especially the ones who don't care about the CPU's power. These are the people whom Nintendo is trying to capture.. They sure as hell won't pay that much for a game console, when they aren't interested in playing videogames anyway. You could argue that $250 is even too much, but Nintendo has this covered. They pack in Wii Sports, so that the hardcore early adopters get it with the system. The launch and the next few shipments will sell out to the early birds, so a lower price is not needed. To top this off, they can use viral marketing through Wii Sports, and get casuals and nongamers interested in the system. Then, after a few months, they cut the price, inviting people to try the console out. It's a great strategy..

Even the dreaded nongamer strategy has paid its dividends, looking at the DS. Not only have they sold millions upon millions of systems and games that are designed to attract nongamers, by opening up a new demographic, it has helped their other games as well. Ian is the first to tell us that Nintendo franchises don't sell Nintendo consoles as much as they used to. With the DS, games like Nintendogs and Brain Training expanded the market, so the new audience has a chance to try out classic Nintendo franchises. New Super Mario Bros is the best selling Mario game in Japan since Super Mario World.. that's not a coincidence.
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Offline Arbok

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Gotta aplaud IceCold for the post of the thread right here; a lot of great points, and I fully agree that a lot of the mindshare that Nintendo is now getting is because they aren't following the pack in terms of their next console, but are paving their own way which is really turning heads.

Will it pay off? Time will tell, but I think Nintendo is in a much better position right now then they could have been with a traditional console ready to launch.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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It's simple: Nintendo's competitors have done everything they can to keep Nintendo hidden in obscurity, so much so that there were a lot of people who thought that the Gamecube and Xbox were the same console.

If Nintendo released a "traditional" console, do you know where they'd be? Concealed in obscurity in 3rd place.

The only, I repeat, the ONLY THING Nintendo could do was pull off something that would carry them OUT of the depths of obscurity and into the spotlight, otherwise they'd become that sh*tty little 3rd place company that has its ideas ripped off on a regular basis and no one knows they exist. They NEEDED a way to say, "Hey, look at US!" and the Wii has done that nicely.

Ian, the Nintendo you want cannot survive in this market. I know you don't like this Nintendo, but this is the evolution necessary for the company to survive.

Don't be the type of ignorant fanboy who wants the company to stick to its roots so badly that it would do so at the cost of its own existence.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Arbok
Gotta aplaud IceCold for the post of the thread right here; a lot of great points, and I fully agree that a lot of the mindshare that Nintendo is now getting is because they aren't following the pack in terms of their next console, but are paving their own way which is really turning heads.

Will it pay off? Time will tell, but I think Nintendo is in a much better position right now then they could have been with a traditional console ready to launch.


::Gives up on writing anything anything of any length in the future since people it is obvious people don't care:: Anyway good post Ice, that definately does fall into Nintendo using a the Business model of diffentiation. Also is it just me or does Ian seem like he needs another vacation? He seems to be in grumpy mode again .
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: VGrevolution ::Gives up on writing anything anything of any length in the future since people it is obvious people don't care::


We all read your post (I did, anyway).

It's just that, when it becomes Ian vs. the world in a thread, we all tend to make similar arguments.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
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Originally posted by: VGrevolution ::Gives up on writing anything anything of any length in the future since people it is obvious people don't care::


We all read your post (I did, anyway).

It's just that, when it becomes Ian vs. the world in a thread, we all tend to make similar arguments.


I think we all should chip in and give Ian another vacation, it was so nice  when was he was relatively happy and positive.  
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Hate to say it, but to borrow from SNL, Ian's got a fever and the only cure is Wii sales figures.

Once this thing explodes into a burning holocaust of media frenzy, trust me, much of his doubts will be erased.
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Offline Smoke39

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Are you sure?  He seems a tad underwhelmed with the DS in spite of its success.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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When the PS3 is busy decomposing and the 360 is licking the Wii's boots, he'll be singing a different tune.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Kairon

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Dudes, you've got Ian all wrong. He's not a fanboi who can be swayed by sales figures and who'll snap up Nintendogs on hype alone just to later risk being charged with criminal neglect of a virtual being.

This is the reason he's not all ga-ga on the DS: sales don't make it a good system; quality, traditional, golden era style Japanese games do.

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Dudes, you've got Ian all wrong. He's not a fanboi who can be swayed by sales figures and who'll snap up Nintendogs on hype alone just to later risk being charged with criminal neglect of a virtual being.

This is the reason he's not all ga-ga on the DS: sales don't make it a good system; quality, traditional, golden era style Japanese games do.

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Funny I thought DS had traditional games along with quirky or casual games like Nintendogs. We have Star Fox, Castlevania, Super Mario DS, Yoshi's Island 2 (looks very traditional), Mario Kart, along with some others that I am sure that I've forgotten. DS has a ton of variety for gamers of all kinds, and I think it is a bit silly to still hold a grudge against it. Heck for me last year it was my favorite system, which is very unusual for me since I usually end up pushing my handhelds off to the side, but DS has been something very special.  
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Offline Smoke39

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I know, Kairon.  I tend to agree with Ian to a degree.  For example, he expressed concern over the new interface being an exuse not to inovate in other areas.  That is, a developer may make an extremely derivative, formulaic game, and justify it with, "But it's new and cool because instead of pressing buttons now you make hand gestures!"  Sure, it makes things a bit more interesting, but I don't think that's enough.  I think that's a legitimate concern, though I'm not as skeptical as Ian.
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Offline couchmonkey

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Now it's time for me to join the Ian defense force!  Kairon gets Ian -- sales don't impress Ian, games do.

I'd say Ian still pines for older games...he's like my dad, only my dad pines for the text adventure cycle of games, where Ian pines for the 16-bit generation of games (give or take a few years).  This is perfectly understandable, it's the generation he grew up in so he's got a preference for it.  A lot of other people have preferences that they feel aren't being met.  Games are going to change in the next few years and Nintendo is on the leading edge of what's next in gaming, and a lot of people aren't going to like where this leads.  Wii Sports, anyone?

VGRevolution points out a bunch of traditional games on the DS.  This is a good point, and in fact Ian has expressed more interest in Yoshi's Island DS than pretty much any other game this year.  But there are two counter-arguments:

1. From a traditionalist view Nintendo "failed" with New Super Mario Bros.  If you've watched the reaction on the internet, you've probably noticed that there's a very vocal minority that's unhappy with this game.  What they want is all the best elements of previous 2D Mario games plus new elements - flight is the number one thing they say the game needs, followed by greater length/challenge.  Instead Nintendo reinvented the original Super Mario Bros to create a simplistic experience that a larger audience could enjoy.  This game is not meant strictly for hardcore Mario fans, it's meant for anyone that wants a fun 2D platformer.  Star Fox Command has also strayed somewhat from the formula that made the first two "classic".

2. Nintendo and other companies are spending resources on games like Nintendogs, World of Warcraft, The Sims and Mario Party instead of games that reflect the tastes of the 16-bit generation.  Sure DS has Castlevania, Final Fantasy III and Mega Man ZX this fall - but I bet almost any given fall season on the Super Nintendo outdid that, in terms of the style of games that Ian wants to play.  It's not just about a few bankable sequels, it's also about all the forgotten one-shot titles like Plok, Shadowrun, ActRaiser*, Super Ghouls n' Ghosts, and Blackthorne: these were the kinds of games filling in the blanks on Super NES.  On DS it's titles like Club House Games, Mario Hoops 3-on-3, and Phoenix Wright.  Not bad games, but not the same as the 16 bit era at all.

So from a traditional perspective, the games are still coming, but not in the quantities or forms that they used to.

*I know ActRaiser had a sequel, but it only survived for one generation, which is what counts.  
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Offline MaryJane

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Yeah everyone defend Ian!

Nintendo should not be making casual games, all casual games eventually fail.

Like Second Life which only has 900,000 users.

Who needs it? Because we all know developers hate when a game they don't make sells big, it means the games they make won't sell any right? even with a huge userbase if you make a game that can sell a million in a short period time, it means no other game type will do the same, and only that type of game will be made.

Especially when nintendo faithful will buy games like Zelda and Mario. Red Steel has one of the largest following in the gaming community right now also. So you can see my point right?
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Offline trip1eX

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Ian will never be cured.  It doesn't matter if sales of the Wii hit 10 million by March 2007 or if Nintendo corrects all the 'problems' he bitches about or if 3rd parties take the Wii to heart and release a ton of titles.  It's not about games either.

The thing that none of you have figured out is that no matter what Nintendo does Ian won't be satisfied.   Oh he might try to throw you off that trail once in awhile by throwing out a positive post, but he can't keep that up.  It's his nature to be negative.  


I also get the sense the dude has no money.  I remember a post awhile back where it came to light that Ian hadn't played alot of pretty good Nintendo titles of the past couple years.  
 

Offline couchmonkey

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MaryJane: I never said "casual" games will fail.  In fact I implied that they're the wave of the future.  I just said Ian doesn't like them.  

trip1eX: I agree that Ian can almost always find a way to complain, but if you look at the E3 press conference thread, it's definitely possible to please him:
Quote

Ian sez:
Okay I just heard about a new Yoshi's Island game for the DS. OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD OHMYGOD!!! I honestly am short of breath after hearing that. Not Wii related but it's the same conference so whatever.

That's my opinion, not yours.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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They release the same "traditional" games as well.

Seriously, for every "innovative" game on the DS, there's an "ol' skool" title which just reeks of "WTF this should have been on the SNES".

We'll soon have not one but TWO Castlevanias, Tetris, Mario Kart, Final F*cking Fantasy III, and OMFG, NEW SUPER MARIO BROS. which is as dated as it gets in terms of gameplay.

Explain to me where he has grounds for whining again?

Quote

Originally posted by: trip1eX I also get the sense the dude has no money.  I remember a post awhile back where it came to light that Ian hadn't played alot of pretty good Nintendo titles of the past couple years.


Ooooohhhhhhhhhh...

THAT would explain everything.
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Offline Ian Sane

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"Sony was going to be #1 regardless"

Would they with their $600 console?  I think Sony is going to slip from number one this gen but I don't think it's because Nintendo is totally schooling them with the Wii.  I think Sony's just screwing themselves over so bad that that third parties will have to leave because the console just won't sell well enough.  Nintendo is going to pick up the slack by being the de facto number two in Japan.  Now to be fair it is easier to point this out in hindsight though there have been some chinks in Sony's armour for a while.  They aren't treating third parties as well anymore, dictating what games can or can't be released in North America.  Someone like Nintendo who needs better third party support could win companies over with a more flexible policy (which is pretty much how they attracted SNK to the Wii).

Regarding this traditional game stuff "traditional" is just a term commonly used to differentiate between a non-game.  It has nothing to do with nostalgia titles offering the same stuff that has been played forever.  That is what Nintendo considers to be a "traditional game" but that isn't what I want.  I want new titles and sequels with new ideas created for people who play games as opposed to simplistic games made for people who don't play games.  Rehash city is not what I want.  Now I like New Super Mario Bros and I'm interested in Yoshi's Island 2 but that's because those are (or will be) great games.  But they aren't very fresh and nothing but games like that would get real stale real quick.  New Super Mario Bros is great but it's a nostalgia game.  It's full of references to old games and formulic Mario stuff that Nintendo knew fans would like.  But it doesn't break much new ground like the past Mario games did.

Right now Nintendo's creative energies on the DS are going towards simplistic non-games.  There are games made for gamers but they're rehashes, even if they are pretty good.  I want Nintendo making creative games for gamers.  That is what I always mean when I say "traditional game".  The idea of traditional games being uncreative is placed in your heads entirely because Nintendo says they are and is making all of their "gamer games" in that style.  They could be innovating in a way that doesn't result in dumb-downed simplistic non-games but they are choosing not too.  I don't like non-games and I don't want nothing but nostalgia trips.

Now if they did put some damn creativity in anything else but their non-games then the non-gamer stuff wouldn't bother me as much.  Then Nintendo truly would be working on pleasing both groups.  Right now they aren't.  Gamers get token scraps.

I am a little more interested in the Wii lineup though.  Super Mario Galaxy for example looks like a gamer's game and has some really cool new elements like the planet stuff.  I'm afraid the game might control like crap but it looks like a cool concept that is fresh at the same time.

Offline Strell

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You know, I avoided reading several pages of text when Ian said "I thought the clicky things on the GC controller sucked, and I was right," and then proceeded to imply that this also means the Wiimote will suck.

That was about my fill for the rest of the year.
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Offline Requiem

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Quote

Originally posted by: Smoke39
I know, Kairon.  I tend to agree with Ian to a degree.  For example, he expressed concern over the new interface being an exuse not to inovate in other areas.  That is, a developer may make an extremely derivative, formulaic game, and justify it with, "But it's new and cool because instead of pressing buttons now you make hand gestures!"  Sure, it makes things a bit more interesting, but I don't think that's enough.  I think that's a legitimate concern, though I'm not as skeptical as Ian.



Though that maybe a legitimate concern, you must realize that we, the consumers, won't stand for it. For instance, if the Wii takes off there will most likely be a sh#t-ton of crappy games that 3rd parties throw at us for the sole reason of "cashing-in". They'll give us all sorts of nasty sparkling innovationy games, but you know what....they won't sell.

Why?

Becuase those games that do innovate and are actually fun will be the best selling games. You must remember that with the Wii, the competition is starting out on the same foot. People will now look at how the game plays as a big part of their decision to buy the game. This game could have been made by Nintendo or a small indie company; no matter, because if its fun -- then damn it it's fun.

Now these third parties can thrive off of our curiousity for a while, making sports games and FPS's that still intrigue us simply because of the Wii. However, as soon as THE FPS or THE boxing game comes out, 3rd parties are going to have to reform and get their act together. They are going to have to reinnovate their style and continually innovate so they can get our attention.

What I'm basically trying to say is...

Sloppy controls will lead to the death of the game.
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Offline Ian Sane

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"Though that maybe a legitimate concern, you must realize that we, the consumers, won't stand for it. For instance, if the Wii takes off there will most likely be a sh#t-ton of crappy games that 3rd parties throw at us for the sole reason of 'cashing-in'. They'll give us all sorts of nasty sparkling innovationy games, but you know what....they won't sell."

I think that's wishful thinking.  Super Mario 64 DS was a port with inferior controls and yet people ate it up.  Poor games sell on ignorance.

Offline WalkingTheCow

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How well did 50 cent: Bulletproof sell again?

Offline Artimus

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Though that maybe a legitimate concern, you must realize that we, the consumers, won't stand for it. For instance, if the Wii takes off there will most likely be a sh#t-ton of crappy games that 3rd parties throw at us for the sole reason of 'cashing-in'. They'll give us all sorts of nasty sparkling innovationy games, but you know what....they won't sell."

I think that's wishful thinking.  Super Mario 64 DS was a port with inferior controls and yet people ate it up.  Poor games sell on ignorance.


SM64DS wasn't a poor game. It was a very good game. The controls are not perfect, and inferior to with a control stick,  but the game itself is superior to the original. The graphics are better, the multiplayer is fun, the minigames are great, and the characters add-depth. It's overall better game than the 64 version. But you never bothered to truly play it, did you?

(do you even OWN a DS?)