Topic: Nintendo's biggest blunder

[GoldenPhoenix]

What is this blunder you asked? Well recently I was thinking about the polishing of Nintendo's games, and realized that one component that has really been altered is none other than Miyamoto. I'm not sure it was the best of ideas to make the man more of an advisor on multiple projects, which I believe started around the GC era. It is almost heart wrenching to imagine what games like Wind Waker or SMS could have been if Miyamoto was still focused on a couple of projects at a time. When you have one of the greatest, if not the greatest, game designer of all time at your disposal why take him out of his element? Perhaps you guys have some thoughts or information on why exactly Miyamoto was taken out of being in the game designer to a more "managerial" role where he oversees multiple projects.  

I can't help but wonder if GC would have been a bigger success if Miyamoto had a project he was dedicated too like SM64 for N64. Hopefully this does not repeat itself with the Wii and I am left wondering if Miyamoto's game designs could have helped it be a sucess as well.

[Smoke39]

I think it's partly to utilize his experience with as many projects as possible, and partly a way to sort of help train other designers.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39
I think it's partly to utilize his experience with as many projects as possible, and partly a way to sort of help train other designers.

I understand that aspect, but personally I think it has been doing more harm than good. Ever since he has stepped down from full time game designing the public has seen a drop in quality in Nintendo's games (personally I still love them) and they don't seem to have as much magic anymore. Yeah it is nice to have his experience to help with multiple projects, but you are not getting the complete package with many of those games since his talent is spread so thin.

[Smoke39]

I kinda agree.

[King of Twitch]

Could the small number of first party launch titles be another side effect? Too many tea tables being upended maybe?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: MJRx9000
Could the small number of first party launch titles be another side effect? Too many tea tables being upended maybe?

You know that may be another reason, since Miyamoto has his hands on so many things there may have been alot of games that he forced to be revamped. That is fine when it is only 1 or 2 games that he is able to focus on, but when too many are "tipped over" it could cause some massive delays, especially since the games may be forced to be revamped later on in their development cycle.

[thejeek]

It's a shame Nintendo either feel they don't have enough younger talent or they can't trust the young talent they have sufficiently to leave them to come up with stuff on their own - having a man of Miyamoto's stature standing over you while you try to be creative might do more harm than good.

[willie1234]

I think they've done a good job of bringing up the next gen.  Galaxy is the same team as Donkey Kong Jungle Beat right?

[Michael8983]

I think Miyamoto's "tea table" comment is a sign that he's becoming a little more aggressive in making sure the games are quality. That's definitly a good thing even if it does mean delays. I think he was a little lax this past generation and let these younger designers get away with some things he probably shouldn't have because he didn't want to offend them. But he did seem quite upset with Mario Sunshine's somewhat dissapointing reception, especially in Japan. I think if anything that's what has changed his attitude.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

DKJB = win

We could've had another Mario64 + Pilot Wings launch -- instead of the healthy NINTENDO-PUBLISHED game schedule we're seeing now.

I didn't pickup any other N64 game in 1998 besides "Oakland Arena on Time =D" cuz nothing else was interesting enough to the non-StarFox player in me.  I'm probably over exaggerating, but it seemed like Nintendo's simultaneous game-dev'ing hit the brakes when Miyamoto focused on a project, essentially channeling most of Nintendo's resources into that one project.

But it's not bad now.  We got Pikmin 1 and 2, and Nintendogs, AND hardware developments.  Leave the man alone, he just wants some freedom from the stuff he's worked on so many times, so many years before.  Plus, his willingness to welcome new devs into Nintendo's library has helped/will give me gameplay concepts i thirst for (Battalion Wars/Geist).

*STICKS OUT TONGUE*
*SHAKES FIST*
*THROWS GIANT TURNIPS*

[TrueNerd]

Here's a reality that is sad to think about: Nintendo fans need to start preparing for a Future Nintendo that no longer employs Shigeru Miyamoto. The dude is in his 50's and retirement/senility/impotence?/loss of talent is not far off. This is likely what he's doing, preparing the company for his eventual departure by delegating and advising. While this may mean that we may never see SMB3/OoT greatness from Nintendo ever again, it should also mean that Nintendo will continue being the best developer in the industry for many years to come.

With that being said, I hope he's mostly focusing on Galaxy right now.  

[Dirk Temporo]

I think that if Miyamoto has enough say that he can go into an office that doesn't belong to Nintendo, and throw tables around, we're not missing much.

[Kairon]

I don't think that Miyamoto being moved to a more Producer-like position is a bad move by Nintendo. It's a bad move for me as a Miyamoto-fanboi, but it allows Nintendo to be more flexible and Miyamoto to share the wealth. Also, it allows new game development talent to come into their own: Eiji Aonouma, Katsuya Teguchi, etc. This is a Nintendo that is learning NOT to be a one-trick pony because while Miyamoto is their biggest strength, he is also their biggest weakness in that they rely on him and his projects can actually become distractions for the company. Sure, Miyamoto's games are the most perfect on all the world, but there's more to gaming than his style, you know, Nintendo has to learn to be a more open-minded, well-rounded company.

But for their biggest current mistake? Ummm... I'll have to think about that one...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[mantidor]

Zelda improved a million times when he left the games to Aonuma, Miyamoto is overrated

>.>
<.<

*runs*

For serious, the best results happens when he lays out basic principles but lets the dev team polish the games and overall structure, like with Metroid Prime. He has good ideas but he's not a fan of big games with complex histories or characters, working this way the other people involved in the proyects compensate for this.

[Kairon]

There's nothing wrong with having epic stories, and there's nothing wrong with not having them. It's just that some people need to feel like they're reading a good book or watching a blockbuster movie, and some people can get along without perfectly fine. It's not an innate quality issue, just a personal stylistic choice.

...which is why I, a big Miyamoto Fanboi, acknowledge Miyamoto as Nintendo's biggest weakness because his prominence as a game designer restricted a range of stylistic choices from flourishing. Since he's a producer, other creators can have more freedom to express their artistioc visions since they're no longer in direct conflict with him. It was a good move to send Miyamoto up to Producer.

BUT... I feel that Zelda will still never be as magical. That's just a personal stylistic call.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Some good points, but I still believe as a company as long as they have Miyamoto around to create games they should utilize that asset as best as possible. He can still bring up young talent by working with them while creating (I believe he did that with OOT), but he still should be more focused on games because he is a game creator, not some guy who watches a bunch of people to see if they are getting things right with multiple projects. One error many companies end up making is taking someone who is AMAZING at one thing, promoting them to the point where they are less effective and thus ends up hurting the company whether it be profitability or quality (which could end up affecting profitability).  

[Kairon]

But Miyamoto is EXACTLY what was hurting the company.

Especially in a Japanese context, he's too revered for anyone to do anything against him. As long as Miyamoto was Nintendo's game dev star, they were unable to tap a vast reserve of junior talent. But bump him up to a Producer position and now he gives advice, but not nearly enough advice to any one project to get in the way of that projects own unique creativity. This allows Nintendo more versatility and allows them to diversify their game styles.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

I really disagree he was hurting the company, creating some of the greatest games in the world is NOT hurting anyone. Nintendo could still expand out with other development teams, nothing was stopping them from doing that. I'm never going to be convinced that moving a hall of fame designer to more of an "advice" man is smart and it doesn't hurt the games. Take for example Will Wright, though I don't think he is one of the best he still is a highly revered game developer, do you think he would be better off in a consultant positon? No he wouldn't, and in order to expand creativity EA also has other development teams that work independently of him, so why can NIntendo not do the same?

[Kairon]

He was holding them back. This is the paradox.

He was creating the best games in the world but he was a crutch that Nintendo was leaning on.

Oh, and your EA comparison is laughable. The fact is that Nintendo is expanding as fast as they can and as fast as they can find good dewvelopers. Do you want Nintendo to turn out the same quality games as EA?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Hocotate]

This is Nintendo's biggest blunder? lol.

[Guitar Smasher]

Did anybody consider that his current position may have been a result of his wishes?  You work a job long enough, you'll want a promotion.  And besides, as long as he was the main developer dude, there was no chance for the next Miyamoto to bloom.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
He was holding them back. This is the paradox.

He was creating the best games in the world but he was a crutch that Nintendo was leaning on.

Oh, and your EA comparison is laughable. The fact is that Nintendo is expanding as fast as they can and as fast as they can find good dewvelopers. Do you want Nintendo to turn out the same quality games as EA?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

I don't find my comparison to EA "laughable", I was just showng that you can expand out even with a brilliant game designer. EA does release some great game every once in awhile, I just wanted to illustrate it is possible to expand even with a great game designer. If Miyamoto did indeed request his current position then I guess I can understand it, but that seems unknown (unless someone else has that information).

Why do I bring up the question on whether this is Nintendo's biggest blunder you wonder? Well Nintendo biggest decline in both perceived quality (even if I don't always agree) and sales appear to be syncronized with miyamoto taking on a more managerial role. Nintendo games have not been getting praised like they were when Miyamoto was focused on creation and thus it has impacted perceptions on nintendo's quality. One individual who's opinion I would like to hear is Ian on this, because I think he may fall into that category.

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: Guitar Smasher
Did anybody consider that his current position may have been a result of his wishes?  You work a job long enough, you'll want a promotion.  And besides, as long as he was the main developer dude, there was no chance for the next Miyamoto to bloom.

I agree with Guitar Smasher but for difference reasons.  Being a driving force behind a game means long hours and the like.  Miyamoto is getting older and has already stated he regretted all the time he missed with his family.  I think in a producer role was the best thing for him and Nintendo.  Nintendo would have loved to keep him as just a game designer even pay him the same as top level staff members because he's worth that much.  In the end without being able to ask him myself I know that if I was in his position I probably would have done the same thing.  You can only work those sort of hours for so long.  Being in a producer/consultant role means that he can work as much as he wants but the end deadline is not his overall concern that is someone elses.  This is allowing him to spend more time with his family the he has neglected more then he would have liked and do other hobbies the inspires his creativity.

Personally I believe if he kept doing the same thing he probably be totally burned out by now.

[Ian Sane]

Nintendo's biggest blunder was using cartridges on the N64.  Though that was Miyamoto's idea so maybe in a way it does relate to him having a higher position in the company.

I will agree that Nintendo doesn't seem to have been as "on" as they were prior to about 1999 or so though I don't think that's the biggest reason the Cube sold poorly and I don't think it's entirely due to Miyamoto being a producer.  There are really only three Cube games that I expected great things from that kind of let me down: Super Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker, and Mario Kart.  Mario Sunshine I blame the water pack.  They were trying to add something new, like they always do, and unfortunately it just happened to be a really lame concept.  Wind Waker's problem was that it was rushed so they lost two dungeons.  Mario Kart is just getting stale and it's not really Nintendo fault.  It's just the type of game that can't maintain freshness for very long.  Something like Zelda could always get by on a new adventure with new locales and new people to meet.  Mario Kart is karts racing around a track.  How do you keep that fresh without totally rehauling it?  That's hard.

The last few years of the Cube were really weak but that's because Nintendo didn't care anymore.  Other letdowns were due to too many unneeded franchise games but I don't think that's specific to Miyamoto being a producer unless it was his idea.  They also dumped all their really talented second parties and replaced them with unproven developers that don't really have the same level of talent.  When Nintendo was making something that wasn't a cheap franchise cash-in typically it was still pretty amazing.  SSBM, Pikmin, Metroid Prime are all AAA Nintendo stuff that holds up as well as their greatest work.  There were a lot of things that affected Nintendo's quality but I don't those were directly related to Miyamoto.  Some of them are just unfortunate flukes and the poor timing of having these goofs all happen at the same time.

I still think there is a problem with Miyamoto being a producer and that's that it makes everything have a similar feel.  During Nintendo's greatest eras there were always two powerhouses with different approaches to gaming.  In the 2D era you have R&D1 and R&D4.  On the N64 you had EAD and Rare.  The Cube didn't have that and with Miyamoto being involved with every game there's less variety.  You end up with Namco and Sega making EAD style games instead of contributing their own style.  Miyamoto is very talented but he's not perfect.  There are certain styles and genres that he just doesn't know and thus shouldn't touch.  Having him work on everything makes it hard for something to branch out in different style like Super Metroid or Goldeneye did.

Still I think Nintendo's greatest flaw right now is the stupid idea that their franchises define them and thus we all just want tons of sequels.

[couchmonkey]

Actually, as the producer, maybe his deadline interests are on the other side.

I don't think this is Nintendo's biggest blunder for the simple reason that Nintendo already faltered back on the N64, which had some of the greatest games ever made.  I have been somewhat dissappointed in the quality of Nintendo's latest games, and I think it's somewhat related to Miyamoto's position changing, but I think there are other factors too.

I think Nintendo is beginning to recognize that quantity matters more than quality these days.  Nintendo saved the industry from a crash by bringing quality games to the table back in the 80s, but N64 showed that you can have the very best games in the world, and it won't matter if your competitor has three times as many games.  You can't cover the genres, invent new hits, and fill niche needs without quantity.  So it's not just Miyamoto switching positions, I think it's Nintendo trying to provide quantity.

This is a big blunder for fans, I suppose you could argue it was Nintendo's biggest mistake for us, but for Nintendo as a business, these changes are necessary.  As others pointed out,  Miyamoto is not going to be around forever, now is the time to start raising new stars rather than waiting until Miyamoto is retired!  From this position, he can supervise many different games.  Also, releasing a larger quantity of games is working for Nintendo.  DS has had a much larger first party game lineup than Gameboy did, and the result is that Nintendo was able to defeat the biggest competitor it has faced in the handheld gaming market.  Not only that, but it's bringing new gamers into the market in general.