Topic: Should classic video games be tampered with before being put on the Virtual Console?

[JonLeung]

As I mentioned in the topic about the rumoured list of Virtual Console launch games, I had some ideas about Mortal Kombat, but I thought that instead of continuing on that thread and essentially derailing it, that I'd make another topic discussing possible alterations to classic games.

The Mortal Kombat issue in question is that Nintendo had never seen such atrocity before, and so the first game was altered - essentially censored.  There was no blood, and Fatalities were changed.  The Genesis had blood (or a code that enabled it, I believe), as well as the more gruesome Fatalities.  The problem was that the Genesis had worse controls and worse graphics.  So would you want to download both?  Would they even have both available or just one or the other?  Now I had mentioned that the ideal version would be a Super NES-like one with the blood and Fatalities intact.  (That is until Ian reminded me that the original arcade game would be best.  Perhaps Nintendo can get a hold of a few arcade games, but they probably wouldn't make a big deal about it unless they can get a lot.)

Now, in The Legend Of Zelda, the villain is named Gannon - with three Ns, two in the middle.  In the rereleases of The Legend Of Zelda (Animal Crossing, Collectors Edition, GBA NES Classics) this has been changed to Ganon (two Ns, only one in the middle) to coincide with the correct spelling according the the other games in the series.  Surely no one's going to be concerned if they go back and fix a few spelling errors, right?  But then what about the Engrish-that's-so-bad-it's-still-somehow-funny-to-some-people like in the opening of Zero Wing for the Genesis?  Or, a more spelling-related-yet-still-likely Engrish thing like the classic "I FEEL ASLEEP" line from Metal Gear?  (Metal Gear also had a password that took you to the end that included a swear word - THE word that begins with F - removing that now means you have to use another password or *gasp* play the game again.)

Story retcons would be possible, but should they be?  Would it matter much that the world didn't end in 1997 as predicted by the NES version of Crystalis (I forget what the GBC version said) or that Lavos didn't awaken in 1999 according to Chrono Trigger (I forget which year Chrono Cross came out in)?  Would you get as much thrill from not killing a guy (even though you fought him the same way) just so that they could better explain how he comes back in a sequel? (As an example, I had hoped that Metroid: Zero Mission, being a retcon of Metroid, would have Ridley, Kraid, and the Mother Brain all escape instead of die, thus avoiding the unnecessarily unrealistic (IMO) revival of all of them in Metroid Prime/Super Metroid.  However, it's already been established in Metroid Prime that they are "revived", so perhaps death is still necessary for continuity.  And then, on a related note (or maybe not), how would you market this?  I'm sure some of you would argue with me, but the Metroid Prime series, taking place between Metroid: Zero Mission (which replaces Metroid) and Metroid II: Return Of Samus, should make those three games all part of "Metroid 1" (also because Prime means first), since Metroid: Zero Mission implies that it's now "Metroid 0".  Thus, the NES Metroid, though first released and knocked out of continuity, shouldn't they advertise it as the original zeroth game in the franchise, not the original first game?  OMG - arguments against basic numbers will likely ensue!  Back on a related note - shouldn't Samus make at least ONE comment about her adventures in the Metroid Prime games in her recap at the beginning of Super Metroid?  Some events have nothing to do with what will happen in Super Metroid, but you'd think she'd at least make a passing comment about Ridley being a continuous pain.

Going back to The Legend Of Zelda, and related to killing... in the gold cart version of Ocarina Of Time, Link slashes Ganon in the face to finish him off.  He spews red blood.  Supposedly in the later-released grey cart version of the game, this has been changed to green or something less disturbing.  Perhaps someone can remind me what the rereleases of this game (Wind Waker preorder bonus disc, Master Quest, Collectors Edition) have.  Which should be included in the VC version of the game?  Again, it doesn't matter a ton, even for the visceral effect, certainly less than Ganondorf getting the Master Sword right in his head in his human form in Wind Waker but if you change that, what else is open for game designers to go back and change?  If Spielberg can go back and edit E.T. so that a character has a walkie-talkie instead of a gun, and that causes some controversy, then maybe game developers might go back and change weapons entirely, which could then be of "Han/Greedo shot first" retcon controversies.

Do you like games exactly as they were - straight up ROM code put through official emulators - or do you open them up for change?  Online multiplayer, spelling fixes, that's cool.  But if they can be changed, then how far can they change the games before they're not the same anymore?    

[blackfootsteps]

 Quote: "The Genesis had blood (or a code that enabled it, I believe)"

a,b,a,c,a,b,b.

In general, stuff like that (little mistakes and what not) doesn't bother me. In the MK example I would never play MKI if I had access to MKII anyway!

Changing movies / games around to ensure continuity is going over the top, I don't really see a massive benefit to be gained anywhere. Its like the changes butchering of the original trilogy of Star Wars, did it really need to be done?

[Mario]

No. The games I want to download are ones i've never played, and I want to play the proper original versions as they were intended to be played back then.

[jasonditz]

The superior Sub Zero fatality and playing as Kano make MK worth having even if you have MK2.

[jasonditz]

why not do both? By all means, fix some bugs or whatnot, but at least offer a seperate download of the original version. Butchered Engrish translations and cheap, exploitable bugs are part of the appeal of some of those old games.  

[IceCold]

I agree with Jason; if games are going to be changed, then they should have both the original and the modified version..

[Mario]

Both versions would be good

[AnyoneEB]

As long as they do not charge for both separately.

[KDR_11k]

Of course I'd like to see changes to old titles if just to get a version of Adventure of Link with a save system that doesn't suck. And maybe even enhanced combat but at that point it might seem a better idea to just make a GBA remake of it.

[Nick DiMola]

I believe most games should be left as they were. The only possible change that I can see as useful is a system where older games are retrofitted with some sort of save system. This may make older more challenging games a little more manageable. Of course saving would not be mandatory and it would not compromise the game in anyway.

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Of course I'd like to see changes to old titles if just to get a version of Adventure of Link with a save system that doesn't suck. And maybe even enhanced combat but at that point it might seem a better idea to just make a GBA remake of it.

QFT.  Even if it's just works the way it was suppose to according to the NES manual.

[Mario]

More like games these days need to abolish saving

[Ceric]

Oh come on.  It says right in the NES manual for the game that you are suppose to start at the last castle you were at but you always start at the first place.  Meaning you have to do a Whole lot of backtracking.  I mean hours worth it seems like.

[Spak-Spang]

I go back and forth on this.  If it something like Super Mario AllStars where the changes are graphical enhancements and not much else, I am ok with it.  (Though perhaps an option to play the original would be nice.)

If they are making content changes (sweat instead of blood) or simplifying the levels or games then I say hell no.

With the 3D games...if they can replace the game with better textures or higher resolution textures and want to spend the time doing that then I saw HELL YES!!!

[KDR_11k]

Ceric: Never mind dying and having to go across half the map again.

[Ceric]

That did happen when you died.  Yeah I normally just gripe about the whole save thing and going across the map again.  Suffice it to say.  That would be a really good game if it wasn't for that. (Link and Windwaker 2 Zeldas killed by their overworld or stupid decisions involving them.)

[Ian Sane]

There's one thing I've noticed when an artist changes their work is that we really only seem to complain if they do it poorly.  The Extended Cuts of Lord of the Rings are awesome (though a little long) so we like them.  A lot of director's cuts don't get much flack.  George Lucas gets a lot of flack for the Star Wars changes.  Aside from the fact that he's been a big prick about making the original cut available the real reason for all the fuss is that his changes SUCK and severaly hurt the film.  The original cut of E.T. is available on DVD yet Spielberg still gets crapped on for his changes.  That's because his changes are horrible.  So the rule really is "you can change it provided the changes don't suck".

I say for the Virtual Console they should aim for what I would call the definitive version.  That doesn't mean modern changes like when Nintendo adds stupid voices and dumbs down the difficulty.  I mean they look at what versions were available at the time and take what works from all of them.

- Super Metroid was designed for the SNES and only came out on the SNES so it should be a straight port.

- Earthworm Jim came out on the Genesis and SNES at the same time but the Genesis version had an extra level.  Then the Sega CD version came out with difficulty settings, passwords and another new level plus everything the Genesis version had.  Ideally in that case the Sega CD version is the way to go.

- Donkey Kong was originally an arcade game.  The NES version has inferior graphics and is missing a level.  Since the NES version was just supposed to be a straight arcade port use the arcade version but make it say "press start" and not have "insert coin" stuff.

- TMNT IV was originally an arcade game.  For the SNES version they added new levels but the graphics took a hit and they removed four player support.  Ideally they should combine the two versions to have the SNES levels but the arcade graphics and four player support.

But then there's something like Bionic Commando where the NES version and the arcade version are totally different and even though the arcade version is the original the NES one is what became a classic.  In that case I'm not sure what to do.  I figure it would be best to have both versions since they're so different.

It really is a case by case basis.  The only rules should be that if there is only one version that should be the only version and they should not try to modernize the games, just include extras that were available in different versions at the time.  If they're smart they should make unaltered versions of every variation available as well.  Like you can buy a definitive version and choose to buy unaltered straight ports as well.

[JonLeung]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
I go back and forth on this.  If it something like Super Mario AllStars where the changes are graphical enhancements and not much else, I am ok with it.  (Though perhaps an option to play the original would be nice.)

This brings up two issues:

1. The appeal of some old games (particularly the 2D games) are their graphics.  I'd bet that more people have nostalgic feelings for the NES Super Mario Bros. games than the Super NES All-Star rereleases.

2. Then the next issue is about the rereleases that have already been made - Super Mario All-Stars, as you mentioned, and there are a few others, I think, like Ninja Gaiden Trilogy.  There's also two versions of Super Mario All-Stars, one that includes Super Mario World as well.

Personally, I'd not make All-Stars+World available, as it's a compilation of sorts, including the already available All-Stars versions of games and Super Mario World while still on the Super NES.  (For example, it's not necessary to include the standalone Super Mario Bros., the Super Mario Bros. that came with Duck Hunt, and the Super Mario Bros. that came with Duck Hunt and World Class Track Meet.  Similarly, Donkey Kong Classics has Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., and I think it might have Donkey Kong Jr. Math, but I would release the three games only separately.)  But about All-Stars...should that be released at the regular Super NES game price, or should you get a discount if you already have the NES games downloaded?

And then what about Sonic & Knuckles?  That was a Genesis game cartridge, but it also acted like external cheat devices do - and could have the Sonic The Hedgehog games plugged into that - to play those old games with enhancements, most notably including the ability to play Knuckles in them.  So would "Sonic 2 & Knuckles" become available for free if you buy both Sonic & Knuckles & Sonic The Hedgehog 2?  It really should.  It's easy enough with the cartridges, but is it going to require an extra download or something?  I guess that's more of an oddball scenario than being related to compilations and remakes, though.

Here's another one while I'm at it - how about renaming Final Fantasy II and III to their proper numbers, IV and VI?

There are plenty of scenarios, and Ian's right, most would be determined on a case by case basis.  I expect those would be based on fan support and if they're worth releasing in certain ways.

[KDR_11k]

Didn't the SNES and Megadrive version of EWJ have an exclusive level each? Or was that EWJ2?

Super Metroid could benefit from a slight change to the control scheme to make it more like the GBA versions. I just like having a missile button instead of having to select the missiles, THEN fire. Maybe even hide one extra item somewhere, tell noone about it and allow the player to reach 101% completion .

Arcade versions will most likely not be available, I don't think Nintendo will include a MAME-like emulator.

[JonLeung]

I seem to recall that Super Metroid's default fire button was X, which everyone that I know changed to Y anyway.  That was a strange choice.

[Ian Sane]

"Super Metroid could benefit from a slight change to the control scheme to make it more like the GBA versions. I just like having a missile button instead of having to select the missiles, THEN fire. Maybe even hide one extra item somewhere, tell noone about it and allow the player to reach 101% completion"

This is the sort of stuff I don't want.  That's modern game design mechanics added to a classic game that was already perfect.  It really is no different than Nintendo making Link shout "yah" with every sword swing in A Link to the Past.

"Here's another one while I'm at it - how about renaming Final Fantasy II and III to their proper numbers, IV and VI?"

I'd probably suggest that just to eliminate confusion with the real FFII and III which could be made available.  FFIV is really complicated because they also changed the difficulty for the American version (in Japan it's called "Easytype" or something like that).  In that case the best thing to do would be to call it FFIV and when the player starts a game they can pick Easy or Normal.

Sonic & Knuckles is REALLY complicated.  Is there a way for a game to know if another game has been downloaded?  If they programmed that logic in then they just make it unlock if you've bought both games.  "You have purchased Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic the Hedgehog 3.  Please enjoy a free download of Sonic 3 & Knuckles."

[vudu]

I'll save you all a bunch of headaches.  FF IV and VI won't be available for quite some time (if at all).  Square needs to get their cash from the GBA ports first.

As far as what version of the games to use, my vote is for a straight up emulation.  Nothing changed at all.  The only possible exception to this rule would be Ian's often used example of Donkey Kong (NES).  But I'd still prefer they offer the (inferrior) NES port as well as the original arcade version, if possible.

[King of Twitch]

I hope they keep whatever bugs/glitches are there, whether it's the minus world or the select-skip from Link's Awakening, but add a save option for the oldies. Let us choose which version of OOT and whether we want the SNES or Genesis version of Aladdin and I'm happy.

Perhaps they could make a blanket save feature to use on all VC games?

Might be a good idea to fix the Metal Gear swear word, just to avoid another hot coffee brouhaha, but no Lucasing around.

For the ports like Mario All-Stars give a massive discount to download the originals instead of combining exclusive features into one game.

That's just my take.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Quote
Originally posted by: MJRx9000
Perhaps they could make a blanket save feature to use on all VC games?

They could support save states, but I have mixed feelings about that.  On one hand, they're handy beyond description.  On the other, they make it really easy to cheat by letting you try the same thing over and over until you get it perfect, then save again.  That tends to take a lot of the enjoyment out of games I've played emulated.  I personally find it a very difficult temptation to resist, unfortunately.  I suppose they could make it menu driven, which would slow things down enough to make them less useful for cheating.

Regardless, I doubt Nintendo will support save states.  We'll have to ironman those old games, just like the old days, minus the blowing.

[King of Twitch]

Of course it would be an option, the hardcores can always just hit the power button without saving. Thankfully, the Wii will not require blowing-it will blow your mind instead.