Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*

[broodwars]

I liked Yuffie. Sure, she's no Celes but let's be honest, no other Final Fantasy character will ever match Celes's awesomeness.

I don't know...Yuna certainly had her moments in FF X, and her overall story was pretty good (and the soul of that game).  There's Auron from that game as well, who was pretty awesome and had some really good moments.

[noname2200]

If it does turn out to be FF7 I will be disappointed.  I think it's a horribly overrated game (FF6 rapes its face) and is lifted to a mythical, yet laughable, status.  Don't get me wrong it's good but the fanboy gushing over this game is tantamount to idle worship.

Agreed. It's funny reading about how people love the story and characters when both are laughably bad.
Gameplay is ok though but isn't worthy of the golden idol status it gets.

My pet theory has always been that, for many of those people, it was their first JRPG. The sales figures definitely indicate that...

[Ian Sane]

For me the appeal of FF7 was the ambition of it.  The FMV and pre-rendered backgrounds were all about trying to push the envelope in regards to presentation.  You can tell in FF6 that Square wanted to make a game with an epic story and the presentation to match it.  FF7 continued in that direction, only they now had the CD medium to work with.  You might prefer FF6 (I do) but the ambition is similar.  Square had abandoned the "role playing" thing a while back.  RPGs had become the medium for epic storytelling in videogame form.  Those stories are usually laughable but that was the idea.  With FF7 Square was clearly thinking "Now we can have our music sound exactly like we want with Red Book Audio.  Now we can make each area look exactly like we want with pre-rendered backgrounds.  And if we want to have a particularly dramatic moment we can make it look exactly like we want with FMV cutscenes!"

If they could have done the opera scene in FF6 with a real singer and using dynamic camera angles, they would have.  It's only because of the limitations of the SNES that they did it the way they did.  FF7 was Square getting to do exactly what they wanted to do on the SNES.  In that sense it is somewhat impressive.  Even if you don't like the specifics the passion shines through.  They finally could offer a presentation that fit their storytelling ambitions.

[Mop it up]

FF VII isn't necessarily the best FF but it is undoubtable the most significant from a historical point of view.  It made the Playstation and made Japanese RPGs popular in North America.

RPGs were never popular in North America. If they were, there would be other RPGs on the PlayStation's million-sellers list that aren't Final Fantasy, but there are only a few that just barely topped a million and most of those sales are from Japan. Instead, FF7 made FMV popular; this is the main reason why people bought FF7. Once FMVs started showing up in action games and the like, sales of FF games started declining, until today where they sell a small fraction of what the PlayStation games managed.

It's kind of like how Nintendo makes tons and tons of Mario product.  You might think "man, those Mario fans are catered to way too much and me as a Pikmin or Star Fox or StarTropics fan is left out in the cold."  But those various Mario spin-offs aren't what the Mario fanbase is asking for.  They'll buy those spin-offs and usually enjoy them but all they really are asking for is new Mario platformers.

Wrong. I've been asking for Mario Party 9 for a few years now. In some cases I actually enjoy the spin-offs more than the platformers.

but let's be honest, no other Final Fantasy character will ever match Celes's awesomeness.

Bleh. She's such a drama queen. Terra is way better.

[broodwars]

Bleh. She's such a drama queen. Terra is way better.

I was always more a fan of Terra and her theme song as well.

As for the correlation between FMVs and the popularity of the Final Fantasy games, I believe Final Fantasy X sold better than any of the playstation 1 Final Fantasies worldwide.  FMVs were pretty mainstream by that point, so I don't think that was the correlation after probably Final Fantasy 8.  I think FF8 was probably the rude awakening for a lot of people that thought Awesome FMV=Awesome Game.

I think the later Final Fantasies have sold less-well (only 14 has sold poorly) because the West has grown tired of the anime cliches most JPRGs call "characters" and "stories".  Look at Xenoblade, a game that has sold well in the West as far as we know, which has characters that don't conform to the same archetypes that dominate the genre.

[Mop it up]

FFX sold 6.6 million whereas FFVII was 9.8 and FFVIII was 8.15. FFX did beat out FFIX but to be fair on that, FFIX was not only released after the PS2 launched but it also was styled after the earlier FF games and therefore less cinematic. I'm sure that many people who bought FFVII became a fan of the series and its FMV, not RPGs, and that's why they bought new FF games but didn't branch out into other RPGs.

I was always more a fan of Terra and her theme song as well.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the theme. It's one of the best overworld tunes in the series.

[broodwars]

FFX sold 6.6 million whereas FFVII was 9.8 and FFVIII was 8.15. FFX did beat out FFIX but to be fair on that, FFIX was not only released after the PS2 launched but it also was styled after the earlier FF games and therefore less cinematic.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting your numbers?  I remember listening to this Roleplayer's Realm podcast and they said that FF X sold better than FF VII, and they believed it was one of the reasons why Square-Enix was "remaking" that game instead of FF7.  They were factoring in Japan numbers as well as the West there, though.  FF7 was not as significant in Japan as it was here.

[Chozo Ghost]

Fallout 3 is considered an RPG and it has sold extremely well in the west. Buts its an RPG and not a JRPG.

[NWR_insanolord]

Western RPGs are more popular than JRPGs right now (not including Japan), but that may just be because there haven't been many worthwhile console JRPGs this generation, and that the mainstream titles in the genre are fairly stagnant.

[Adrock]

Bleh. She's such a drama queen. Terra is way better.

Nonsense! All Terra did was sulk. boo/hiss

I was always more a fan of Terra and her theme song as well.

Hmm, I think Celes's theme wins this round for me too (just barely), but Final Fantasy VI's soundtrack is my favorite in any videogame. It's hard to pick a favorite. Okay, that's a lie. It's Forever Rachel.

[Mop it up]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting your numbers?

Wikipedia. I didn't check the sources for the numbers but I know they don't use VGChartz.

As far as Western RPGs go, those aren't really RPGs. They may have been inspired by RPGs and have some of the elements mixed in, but the core gameplay is so different as to make them entirely different games. This isn't to try and demean them or anything like that, just to say that they are different types of games that appeal to different people.

[Lithium]

i find that the main difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that western RPGS are actually role playing games.

[Mop it up]

That statement is so vague that it could mean anything. Technically, any game where you play the role of a character is a role-playing game.

[ThePerm]

its not that western rpgs are not roleplaying games and jrpgs are, its that jrpgs arent role playing games and wrpgs are. The western rpg game pre-dates the jrpg genre. The jrpg genre is a sub-genre thats spun off in its own direction.
RPGs are at their core stat management games, based around table top dungeons and dragons concepts. In a regular rpg you get to really create your character and evolve the characters story, but in jrpgs they hand you a group of characters and you grind their stats up and you must follow their linear story line. Everything in jrpgs is predefined except the characters stat management, but even that has limitations.

[Chozo Ghost]

I think what it is that makes an RPG an RPG is that your character gains experience from combat and levels up and becomes more powerful. That makes an RPG different than an action game like say Mario or Call of Duty, where your character is the same strength from beginning to end. In action games the only time your character becomes more powerful is with temporary powerups like a Mushroom or a gun or whatever. RPGs can also have that, but there is also the permanent strengthening of the character brought on from experience in combat

This character experience and leveling up is what JRPGS and western RPGs like Fallout have in common and what separates them from all other types of games.

[NWR_insanolord]

Perm's got this right; the Western RPGs are a lot truer to the pen and paper origins of the genre, so if only one of the two can be considered RPGs, it's the Western games. Interestingly, JRPGs started out a lot more like that, but have become more and more linear and story-based over time. Go back and play the original Final Fantasy (or hell, any Dragon Quest) and they're a lot closer to Western RPGs than current JRPGs are.

[Ceric]

Yes, Western RPGs have there roots firmly in Table Top Gaming (D&D, Exalted, etc).  Which makes sense because that is a Western derived concept.  By my understanding in Europe adult board games are more popular (Axis and Allie, Risk, Those tons of Strategy Games that I've seen but never play that I'm sure KDR could fill me in on.)  I'm trying to think of a Europe derived set of RPGs... My mind is blanking for some reason.

Suffice it to say that playing a role is a very cultural thing still.  Some of us prefer the growing mighty in a more linear experience (Myself being one of them but, I expect my RPGs to be more diamond shaped.)  Other of us love the Sandbox that will just let us be.

[noname2200]

but let's be honest, no other Final Fantasy character will ever match Celes's awesomeness.

Bleh. She's such a drama queen. Terra is way better.

Sure, but Terra's super-emo. Besides, the real best FF VI character is clearly Mog. Moogle Charm, baby!

I'm trying to think of a Europe derived set of RPGs... My mind is blanking for some reason.

 If you mean video game RPGs, The Witcher, Drakensang, Mount and Blade, and Two Worlds are some of the more popular recent titles. They've actually made a bunch of them. If you mean tabletop RPGs, there's probably a whole bunch there too, but I tend to play the more strategic boardgames, so I'm not up on the scene.
 

[Ceric]

but let's be honest, no other Final Fantasy character will ever match Celes's awesomeness.

Bleh. She's such a drama queen. Terra is way better.

Sure, but Terra's super-emo. Besides, the real best FF VI character is clearly Mog. Moogle Charm, baby!

I'm trying to think of a Europe derived set of RPGs... My mind is blanking for some reason.

 If you mean video game RPGs, The Witcher, Drakensang, Mount and Blade, and Two Worlds are some of the more popular recent titles. They've actually made a bunch of them. If you mean tabletop RPGs, there's probably a whole bunch there too, but I tend to play the more strategic boardgames, so I'm not up on the scene.

Most people from Europe I know play more strategic boardgames then pen and paper.  I have to admit I haven't played any of those.

[Mop it up]

I think what it is that makes an RPG an RPG is that your character gains experience from combat and levels up and becomes more powerful.

So you think that the gameplay has absolutely nothing to do with what makes an RPG?

I've always seen RPGs as having menu-based gameplay with outcomes usually decided by random number generators, which produces results similar to the rolling of dice.

Sure, but Terra's super-emo.

No way. Let's see you go through what she went through and tell me how you feel.

[ThePerm]

god i would love a really awesome Risk game, I love playing the board game, but make some slight console changes to the gameplay and it could be epic. Adding some roleplaying elements to risk would be a pain in the ass on a table top, but would be pretty awesome on a console and add some strategy. One thing I never liked about risk was the dice role, and some jrpg/ srpg stuff would play in nicely and allow for some skill.

[Ceric]

Lots of people has tried risk.  Though you pretty much described Fire Emblem Styled RTSes.

[noname2200]

Sure, but Terra's super-emo.

No way. Let's see you go through what she went through and tell me how you feel.

Bah, realism doesn't translate into interesting! Besides, take Rydia from FF IV: an eight year old forcibly kidnapped by the man who confessed to murdering her mother and burning down her entire village. She didn't get emo at all! That's a sign of true maturity right there.

Or Stockholm Syndrome

One thing I never liked about risk was the dice role, and some jrpg/ srpg stuff would play in nicely and allow for some skill.

 I'm not sure what you mean here. Like Mop pointed out, rpgs are heavily dependent on dice rolls, albeit ones hidden from the player's view. Plus, maybe I'm just biased here, but boardgames rely on far more skill than they do luck.
 

[BlackNMild2k1]

This thread is in major need of a new rumor or speculation, so I'll just reach in the hat and try to pull out a rabbit.

AMD is prepping it's Next Generation GPU Architecture and they are calling it GCN (Graphics Core Next) http://www.anandtech.com/show/4455/amds-graphics-core-next-preview-amd-architects-for-compute/5
coicidence?
(GameCube Nintendo)
or maybe not...?

Remember that back in the day Nintendo was working with Silicon Graphics on the N64, who then has a splinter group who was snapped up by ATi (some of the rest went to work for Nintendo), ATi was then bought up AMD, yet the same team has been working with Nintendo ever since.
Some of the tech that this group made for Flipper was integrated into lots of ATi GPUs after they bought them and have been evolved into the cards we have today. I don't know the details since I'm not a techie, but Flipper had some innovations that carried over into the rest of the company.

Now Nintendo is working with AMD/ATi for a brand new GPU architecture since the Flipper is extremely outdated and in desperate need of modernization. So out with the old (GCN's Flipper) and in with the new? (Wii U's GCN?)

So what do you guys think? Could Nintendo be getting a customized version of AMD's GCN Architecture for their Wii U GPU or is AMD just being funny with their naming and it's all just a very big coincidence?

Graphics Core Next....? GameCube Nintendo. GCN & GCN
very weird.

what do you guys think?


here is more on GCN from back in June, which is far as I can tell is when it was announced (the week after E3 and Wii U's reveal).
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4455/amds-graphics-core-next-preview-amd-architects-for-compute
http://wccftech.com/amds-graphics-core-architecture-radeon-hd7000-series-detailed-liquid-chamber-cooling-gpus-confirmed/

[Mop it up]

Besides, take Rydia from FF IV: an eight year old forcibly kidnapped by the man who confessed to murdering her mother and burning down her entire village. She didn't get emo at all! That's a sign of true maturity right there.

No, that's a sign of poor writing. Every character in FFII/IV is that sort of way, they barely react to anything and just keep pressing onward. Plus, there's a huge chunk of time where we see nothing of Rydia, so we have no idea want she went through to transition from that scared little girl into what we see when she rejoins the party. In contrast, we follow Terra through her transformation.

FFVI is pretty dramatic on the whole, so just about every character shows personality. I wouldn't call it emo because there are legit reasons for them to behave in such a way, and the only character who I feel overreacts is Celes.