Topic: Phil Harrsion: We didn't steal motion tech, Nintendo stole 3D!

[Artimus]

“In a way I understand why people say [we stole Nintendo’s idea], but it is a little stupid, if you forgive the remark. When we brought the PlayStation to the market in 1994, we introduced real time 3-D graphics for the first time. When Nintendo launched its N64 in 1996 it also had 3D graphics, did we say, “Nintendo stole our idea!”? Obviously not. Such innovations become possible because of a combination of technology, cost and manufacture capacities. We’ve been working on [motion-sensing technology] for a long time and Nintendo has certainly likewise already been working on something similar. The difference between our strategy and that of our competition is that our controller is still similar to the Dual Shock, the industry standard controller. I estimate that nearly 400 million Dual Shock controllers have been sold worldwide.” - Sony’s Phil Harrison

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=140731

(found@GoNintendo)

Not sure to laugh or cry. My response to the bolded comment: Of course not, you were too busy adding analog sticks.

[mantidor]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


He should have really just shut up about it, I wish the interviewer would have said "but what about Star Fox for the snes?"

[JonLeung]

I remember that Star Fox came out in 1994.

I figure the Sega 32X with its Virtua Fighter must've been around the same time.

Arcade and computer games had 3D earlier (and if you count vector-ish 3D, it's been around much earlier).

And the PlayStation was originally the Super NES Play Station which was going to be Nintendo's response (of sorts) to the Sega CD.  Nintendo and Sony kinda worked together on that one.

...

Wow, so many ways to show that Sony never "invented" 3D.

[Smash_Brother]

3D was out on PCs before any of this, but StarFox would be the first truly 3D console game that I can recall.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
And the PlayStation was originally the Super NES Play Station which was going to be Nintendo's response (of sorts) to the Sega CD.  Nintendo and Sony kinda worked together on that one.

...

Wow, so many ways to show that Sony never "invented" 3D.

I was gonna say the same thing, only differently .

Nintendo and Sony developed Playstation together, then when Nintendo backed out, Sony went and released the unit anyway w/o Nintendo. So if anything Sony stole Nintendo's knowledge, expertise and vision to help build a console that was capable of 3-D graphics.

[Ian Sane]

Nintendo didn't steal from Sony because they didn't introduce a 2D console one year and then next year after the Playstation was annouced suddenly revealed that they were now doing a 3D console.  Well Sega did that but Nintendo didn't.

Sony initially revealed a PS3 with no motion control.  Later Nintendo revealed their console with motion control.  Then at E3 suddenly the PS3 now has motion control too, and it's a pretty half-assed implimentation of it to boot.  That kind of suggests that they stole the idea.  The timing of the PS3 suddenly having motion control after Nintendo revealing the remote is a little too coincidental to just be Sony coming up with a similar idea accidentally.

[Athrun Zala]

as expected, Sony is a bunch of lies....

interesting that the only original thing he could think of was 3D graphics, yet... if I recall correctly, the first 3D console game was Battlezone for the Atari 2600 (I don't know if it's "real-time 3D"..)
in any case, Nintendo beat them to it, as StarFox for the SNES was released in 1993.....oh look! one year before the PSX....

obviously, I have to add the fact that maybe the PSX was the first 3D console, but it didn't have a proper way to control things in 3D......oops! beaten by Nintendo again?

one wonders.....

[BlackNMild2k1]

MASSIVE DAMAGE control!!!!, with REAL TIME controller CHANGE!!!  

[JonLeung]

Watching the conference, I don't know, but moving the PS3 controller looks really dumb.

Maybe because it hasn't changed much from the PSX/PS2 Dual Shock, it just looks like someone doing the whole silly "moving the controller" thing that a lot of people naturally do.  But the Wii controller is more naturally made for moving and pointing with.  I could see the PS3's motion thing only good for tilting and flying.  It wouldn't work at all for two-handed games (boxing, drumming), one-handed games (conducting), sports games (holding it like a bat, club, stick, etc.) or FPSes (it doesn't feel like a gun).  Maybe they'll have a racing game on the PS3 where it works like a steering wheel (like a version of "Riiiiiidge Raaaacer", perhaps), but that's about all you can really do effectively with a motion-sensitive controller where you need to have two hands laterally on it.  

[Khushrenada]

At the end of the article, Phil is asked how many games will use the motion sensing and he thinks "all games will use the function somehow." So, I guess they're going to try to promote this thing after all. But what's really funny is he says:

"If you play a platform or soccer game now, you move the controller around. Now for the first time we can use both the primary input, executed by the analog sticks, and at the same time use the movements that the player makes as a secondary input. That is an important advantage, which only the PlayStation controller has."

Ohhh. Wrong again Phil. Apparently, he has forgotten that the nunchuk also has motion sensing. So, in other words, Nintendo also has the primary input excuted by an analog stick or d-pad and at the same time can use the movements that the player makes as a secondary input.

[couchmonkey]

I think Harrison's mistake is trying to make an analogy where Sony "beat" Nintendo at something.  It's petty and inaccurate.  He should have just said, "we were experimenting with motion control and we didn't want to leave it out just because Nintendo announced the feature first."

I'm actually willing to believe Sony had been experimenting with motion control, but I'm not convinced the company would have included motion control if it weren't for Nintendo.

Edit: Khushrenada - I think he's referring to the second analog stick as being the thing Nintendo doesn't have, but it's still a silly comment, because Nintendo is showing us how the second stick isn't really necessary anymore.

[Strell]

1. Why does Sony even feel the need to comment on anything Nintendo?  Haven't they repeatedly said in the past that they no longer see them as a competitor?  ('Course, this comment is most hilarious when you show a picture of Hirai holding up a PSP.)

2. Warhawk guys> "Yea, we had 10 days to implement motion control."  Yep.  But Sony really had it years ago.  Years ago.

3. Obligatory tie-in to PS3 E3 Conference:  WELL OF COURSE SONY INVENTED 3D.  DON'T YOU REMEMBER WHEN PEOPLE THOUGHT GRAN TURISMO WAS REAL BACK IN THE DAY?  'CUZ BACK THEN THE UNIVERSE WAS TWO DIMENSIONAL ONLY.

.....RIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER!

[Ian Sane]

If Phil wanted to point out an advantage of the PS3 controller a better approach would be to draw attention to the fact that not only does it have motion control but it also retains the existing functionality of past controllers, thus ensuring that the existing model for games is still 100% compatible.  Nintendo doesn't have that.  They decided that motion control is the future and they went all out in designing a controller around that concept, with no regard to past game design or past controller design.  To play a "traditional" game on the Wii you have to buy a seperate controller or fight with some alternative control scheme.  On the PS3 that isn't a concern.  THAT is what Sony should be focusing on.  If there is any advantage, that's it.

[JonLeung]

^But then Nintendo would respond in kind by emphasizing what you can do more comfortably on a Wii controller and make the PS3's motion sensing seem even dumber.

Aiming.  Batting.  Boxing.  Casting.  Conducting.  Drumming.  Fishing.  Pointing.  Shooting.  Slashing.  Swinging.

Yeah, try to do THOSE with a Dual Shock (Dual Shake?) controller.

Because the Wii controller is one-handed and like a handle or a gun, it works a lot better.  Those won't be natural AT ALL with the PS3 controller, and actually looks quite silly.  For the image-conscious and insecure casual gamers, that's not going to sell.  

[Ian Sane]

"But then Nintendo would respond in kind by emphasizing what you can do more comfortably on a Wii controller and make the PS3's motion sensing seem even dumber."

Well there's no doubt that for motion control Nintendo's design is MUCH better.  But Sony could still say "yeah but [popular game series] won't work on the Wii because there's not enough buttons."  They can play up the fact that all your favourite game series just wouldn't be playable if it didn't use the "industry standard" Dualshock design that everyone apparently loves.  There are certainly better angles for Sony execs to take then "well Nintendo stole 3D!"

[The Omen]

As if I needed more proof that Sony are scared as all hell about losing their console dominance, this just smacks of a cornered child coming back with" I know you are, but what am I?".


They can feel the heat, and by god they are reacting like they lost already.  And Harrison is the worst of the bunch...instead of ignoring Nintendo, and the entire controller issue completely, he goes completely in the opposite direction, defending the new tech.  Unbelievable.

[TrueNerd]

The best part of all of this is the fact that Nintendo has been taking the high road. All they've been saying is "Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery." It's beautiful. They know they're the Real McCoy and they don't have to get into a pissing contest with Sony over something they know they've got them beat in. I reccommend we all share Nintendo's rightful confidence.

Also, someone should ask Phil Harrison why Super Mario 64 is considered the revolutionary 3D game when the PSX had a two year head start on the N64.  

[King of Twitch]

Big deal, I don't remember Zelda having real-time weapon change until E3.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Quote
Well there's no doubt that for motion control Nintendo's design is MUCH better. But Sony could still say "yeah but [popular game series] won't work on the Wii because there's not enough buttons." They can play up the fact that all your favourite game series just wouldn't be playable if it didn't use the "industry standard" Dualshock design that everyone apparently loves. There are certainly better angles for Sony execs to take then "well Nintendo stole 3D!"

Well Ian of all dev houses EA proved that traditional games can work on the Wii controller case and point Madden 07 for Wii. And if the developer that argubably is the leader of "safe" and sequelitus(sp?) can prove that a game can work on the Wii controller than any developer with a creative mind can incorporate the Wii controller in "insert game title here" or people can basically use the classic Wii remote if they want something like a 2D fighter.

[nemo_83]

Oh this is so a rib.  He knows Sony and Nintendo were working on the PSX together (the PSX was basically Nintendo's experiments with 3D and CDs without the analog stick).  It was the stick that made it all work.

[ruby_onix]

Quote
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
And the PlayStation was originally the Super NES Play Station which was going to be Nintendo's response (of sorts) to the Sega CD.  Nintendo and Sony kinda worked together on that one.

...

Wow, so many ways to show that Sony never "invented" 3D.

I was gonna say the same thing, only differently .

Nintendo and Sony developed Playstation together, then when Nintendo backed out, Sony went and released the unit anyway w/o Nintendo. So if anything Sony stole Nintendo's knowledge, expertise and vision to help build a console that was capable of 3-D graphics.

Actually, Sony got the rights to make Super Nintendo hardware when they signed up to make the SNES's sound chip (sort of like how Panasonic got the rights to make the GameCube-based Q). Then Sony made the original SNES-based "Play Station" entirely on their own. Nintendo considered this to be a threat and a betrayal, because Sony was going to grab all the royalties on their CD-based SNES games, and refused to negotiate on the matter.

So Nintendo hooked up with Phillips and made the CD-i-compatible "SNES CD" to battle the Play Station (which Sony considered a backstabbing). Since a split SNES CD market would have no winners, there was a standoff until Sony backed down, and went off to make the entirely-new (aside from some controller similarities) PlayStation-X, and then Nintendo eventually noticed that the CD-i sucked, and that Project Reality was the future, so they canned the SNES CD.

[KDR_11k]

Most popular series either don't use that many buttons or could have most actions simplified by using the motion sensing in the Wii. Think about it, GTA doesn't have that many actual control buttons but it has dozens of directional controls that would map perfectly to the motion sensing. You can drop things like two buttons for cycling weapons, you can have one and have it open a menu (kinda like Turok but with more entries due to increased precision). That button could even trigger additional infrequently used actions (i.e. "use" button).

[BlackNMild2k1]

Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onix
Actually, Sony got the rights to make Super Nintendo hardware when they signed up to make the SNES's sound chip (sort of like how Panasonic got the rights to make the GameCube-based Q). Then Sony made the original SNES-based "Play Station" entirely on their own. Nintendo considered this to be a threat and a betrayal, because Sony was going to grab all the royalties on their CD-based SNES games, and refused to negotiate on the matter.

So Nintendo hooked up with Phillips and made the CD-i-compatible "SNES CD" to battle the Play Station (which Sony considered a backstabbing). Since a split SNES CD market would have no winners, there was a standoff until Sony backed down, and went off to make the entirely-new (aside from some controller similarities) PlayStation-X, and then Nintendo eventually noticed that the CD-i sucked, and that Project Reality was the future, so they canned the SNES CD.

I didn't know the bolded part, I thought they worked on it together until Sony worked through some loophole that Nintendo didn't like(apparently dealing with software)

Well either way Sony made thier PSX based on the "Play Station" for SNES, and even basically cipied the controller. Their "Play Station" wouldn't exist w/o Nintendo and that was the point. But thanx for clarifying the details.

[Athrun Zala]

check the SNESCD history here

[Khushrenada]

So, I read that article on the history of the cd debacle for the SNES and I noticed something interesting at the end.

"On August 23, 1993, Nintendo officially announced its partnership with Silicon Graphics (SGI) to create a 3D, 64-bit Nintendo gaming console."

So Nintendo announced that their next console would be 3D in 1993. Sony announced their console would be 3D in 1994. That's why Sony couldn't say that Nintendo stole their idea.