Topic: Wii Progressive scan

[thejeek]

Ahhhh. How incredibly mad! That certainly caught me out.

This does mean that we WILL need different Wii video output here in the UK versus the US though because the vast majority of older and cheaper TVs here support only composite and either S-Video or RGB input. HD TVs may well support YPrPb component input but HD TVs are still a rarity here as there is no real broadcast service for it yet (although Sky satellite and NTL/Telewest cable are in the process of rolling out HD)

[Wackman]

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Originally posted by: thejeek
Ahhhh. How incredibly mad! That certainly caught me out.

This does mean that we WILL need different Wii video output here in the UK versus the US though because the vast majority of older and cheaper TVs here support only composite and either S-Video or RGB input. HD TVs may well support YPrPb component input but HD TVs are still a rarity here as there is no real broadcast service for it yet (although Sky satellite and NTL/Telewest cable are in the process of rolling out HD)

Exactly!. Now, as long as the Wii supports RGB Scart and Component at the same time, no problemo. But if the Pal Wii only supports RGB Scart,......  then no progressive scan for us..... (and i want component output for my projector and lots of people have a HD reday Television these days) That means more jaggies, interlacing artifacts and flicker, and a less calm/steady image because the image is't shown at once, but in two times (odd horizontal scan lines and even horizontal scan lines). In Progressive Scanning all the horizontal scan lines are scanned on to the screen at one time.  

[thejeek]

OK. I understand. Personally my priority is for PAL60 interlaced support over SCART RGB because that's the best my TV can support and I'm not buying HD until my cable provider start having the majority of their output in HD

[Wackman]

Offcourse. I want both options if that is possible. I also have a normal TV. But does anyone know what options will be available on the Wii?

[thejeek]

If Gamecube in Europe is anything to go by, the Wii will supportwhatever the cheapest commonly available interface is that's one step up from composite - I can't imagine for a second it'll support component. Nintendo will look at the installed base of TVs across Europe with component input, bearing in mind that they don't care about HD, count the resulting beans and support either RGB over SCART or S-Video.

[Wackman]

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Originally posted by: thejeek
If Gamecube in Europe is anything to go by, the Wii will supportwhatever the cheapest commonly available interface is that's one step up from composite - I can't imagine for a second it'll support component. Nintendo will look at the installed base of TVs across Europe with component input, bearing in mind that they don't care about HD, count the resulting beans and support either RGB over SCART or S-Video.

That's my worry! People are discussing all these games and expect to play them on wide screen and progressive scan when it's likely that they will not be able to play them in progressive scan. And most televisions in the nearby furture will support component input. all new LCD's and plasma's do and all the new dvd player support component output. You should hear how much of these displays are being sold at the time of the world cup soccer in Germany this year. I think it's an option that sould be built in (but i also think that 5.1 dolby surround should be supported, but that's not going to happen).

[thejeek]

I think the problem is that TVs fall into two broad categories - old, non-HD with no component input and new, HD with component input. It seems pointless to me for Nintendo to support component input if they don't support HD resolution - what's the point of them including additional expensive hardware that can only be connected to an HD TV that the Wii does not fully support.

I don't have HD or even progressive scan support in my current TV and I likely won't have for a few years yet so I personally don't want the price of the Wii driven up by features that I won't benefit from. I'm not convinced of the need for HD support at all when 720p seems only a marginal quality increase over 576i PAL anyway. Progressive scan seems like even less of an issue - especially if you have a 100Hz TV that reduces flicker anyway.

Having said all that, I don't want the Wii to fail because lack of HD or progressive scan support puts other potential users off.

[Wackman]

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Originally posted by: thejeek
I think the problem is that TVs fall into two broad categories - old, non-HD with no component input and new, HD with component input. It seems pointless to me for Nintendo to support component input if they don't support HD resolution - what's the point of them including additional expensive hardware that can only be connected to an HD TV that the Wii does not fully support.

I don't have HD or even progressive scan support in my current TV and I likely won't have for a few years yet so I personally don't want the price of the Wii driven up by features that I won't benefit from. I'm not convinced of the need for HD support at all when 720p seems only a marginal quality increase over 576i PAL anyway. Progressive scan seems like even less of an issue - especially if you have a 100Hz TV that reduces flicker anyway.

Having said all that, I don't want the Wii to fail because lack of HD or progressive scan support puts other potential users off.

They support it for progressive scan reasons. In the US, a lot of televisions have component input. High Def. is another issue, asside from profressive scan. HD is just about resolution. 720p over 576i....it's the p that makes the difference. the resolution less important to me.
The p for porgressive scan makes the image much better in my opinion. Especially with moving images like in games.

[thejeek]

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In the US, a lot of televisions have component input. High Def. is another issue, asside from profressive scan.

Fair enough but I don't think that's so much the case in Europe - progressive scan and component input support is rare on older, non-HD sets.

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The p for porgressive scan makes the image much better in my opinion. Especially with moving images like in games.

Progressive is unarguably better than interlaced but it's a matter of degree and I think that much of what's objectional about interlaced display is the flicker resulting from the 50Hz refresh rate rather than visual artifacts resulting from the interlace - interlaced video looks much more acceptable to me on a 100Hz TV. Still - this is obviously a matter of taste and it's no help if you don't have a 100Hz TV.

The long term solution is just to move to HD, preferably 720p as 1080i seems a backwards step to me and 1080p seems  to have compatibility problems. However, with no HD content on cable TV in the UK and no support from the Wii, I've no incentive to upgrade my perfectly serviceable regular PAL TV. Plus the HDMI business leaves me worried that if I bought something now, it might be incompatible with HD cable TV when it finally gets here...

[Wackman]

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Originally posted by: thejeek

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In the US, a lot of televisions have component input. High Def. is another issue, asside from profressive scan.

Fair enough but I don't think that's so much the case in Europe - progressive scan and component input support is rare on older, non-HD sets.

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The p for porgressive scan makes the image much better in my opinion. Especially with moving images like in games.

Progressive is unarguably better than interlaced but it's a matter of degree and I think that much of what's objectional about interlaced display is the flicker resulting from the 50Hz refresh rate rather than visual artifacts resulting from the interlace - interlaced video looks much more acceptable to me on a 100Hz TV. Still - this is obviously a matter of taste and it's no help if you don't have a 100Hz TV.

The long term solution is just to move to HD, preferably 720p as 1080i seems a backwards step to me and 1080p seems  to have compatibility problems. However, with no HD content on cable TV in the UK and no support from the Wii, I've no incentive to upgrade my perfectly serviceable regular PAL TV. Plus the HDMI business leaves me worried that if I bought something now, it might be incompatible with HD cable TV when it finally gets here...

I agree, there are some compatibilliy issues that need to be resolved with those resolutionsbefore i buy a HD tv too. But i really think that within 3 years, the majority of (gaming) people will have a HD ready television.

And ofcourse the refresh rate of a 100Hz tv is reducing the flicker. But Progressive scan reduces the flickering to none. And it really helps to reduce those jaggie edges.

We'll see. The wii will be a lot of fun. Zelda, Metroid, Mario, red steel, and lot's of new games. even with the composit cable it will be fun.

[thejeek]

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The wii will be a lot of fun ... even with the composit cable it will be fun.

Absolutely! Even plain old analog broadcast PAL TV can look really good if the source material is well produced and there's no real reason that video games shouldn't look good and, more importantly, be good fun even if the link between the console and the TV isn't the best quality it could be.

Unfortunately, I think that Nintendo are deliberately avoiding HD, and possibly progressive scan as well here in Europe, to distance themselves from the competition as well as to cut costs and it will be a bit frustrating if the Wii's TV output is not the best quality your TV can support but hopefully it will be good enough not to distract from the gameplay.

[EDIT:] fixed pasted text in wrong place...

[Wackman]

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Unfortunately, I think that Nintendo are deliberately avoiding HD, and possibly progressive scan as well here in Europe, to distance themselves from the competition as well as to cut costs and it will be a bit frustrating if the Wii's TV output is not the best quality your TV can support but hopefully it will be good enough not to distract from the gameplay.

Well, it would be strange to use it to distance them selves from compitition.... But to cut costs, sure, that will probably be the reason. Probably the same reason why they're not supporting Dolby Digital (am still hoping for it though).

My problem is not with my tv. On my tv the artifacts are much less visible than on my projection screen.....

[thejeek]

That'll teach you for having far too nice a projector telly then you should have an big fat old 4:3 goldfish-bowl shaped 28" Bush bought from Tesco's like me!
 

[Wackman]

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Originally posted by: thejeek
That'll teach you for having far too nice a projector telly then you should have an big fat old 4:3 goldfish-bowl shaped 28" Bush bought from Tesco's like me!

It's not a projector telly. It's a projector, and on the other side of the room is a projection screen. Like a cinema. These projectors are cheaper than plasma's,  but are capable of displaying HD, and the great thing is that you really feel that you are IN the movie (or Game). I'm playing Metroid Prime 2 now and it's truely fantastic.

[thejeek]

Oh. Sounds cool. I was tempted to get one a while back as you see loads of PC projectors on eBay which I guess you could use together with a TV capture card but the cost of bulb replacement and loud fan noise kind of put me off the idea. Also there's a risk of lag with a TV capture card which makes gaming impossible (I found this out trying to use my laptop as a screen for my Cube via a USB capture card). I'm guessing since you have component input you're using a projector designed for TV use?

[Wackman]

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Originally posted by: thejeek
Oh. Sounds cool. I was tempted to get one a while back as you see loads of PC projectors on eBay which I guess you could use together with a TV capture card but the cost of bulb replacement and loud fan noise kind of put me off the idea. Also there's a risk of lag with a TV capture card which makes gaming impossible (I found this out trying to use my laptop as a screen for my Cube via a USB capture card). I'm guessing since you have component input you're using a projector designed for TV use?

Actually, no. I don't want to use it to watch television (oh wel, maybe to watch a few soccer matches during the world cup). I watch my dvd's with it (=fantastic), i play games on it (including nes games) an sometimes i watch some photographes from my laptop. I have the Panasonic PT 900Ae. The fan noise is actually pretty low... Bulb replacement is a fact indeed. But that's after 5000 hours. That's a lot of dvd's and games.
I also think that in time i'll but a PS3 or a 380 for HD DVD.  (and HD games ofcourse), but for now, i just want a Wii. I just think that Nintendo games are great fun.

[KDR_11k]

I worded my post badly, I'm aware that SCART is the RGB thingie. First I thought YPrPb stood for something like Ytterbium, Praseodymium and Plumbum.

All I really want is a freaking VGA port (or DVI in the variant that allows using a VGA adapter). My PC monitor cost a fraction of a HDTV's price and does the same resolutions at much higher frequency. Also it doesn't have a tuner that wants to find TV stations when I don't have the TV cable plugged in for a few months or spontaneously decides that it's a widescreen TV...

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I worded my post badly, I'm aware that SCART is the RGB thingie. First I thought YPrPb stood for something like Ytterbium, Praseodymium and Plumbum.

LOL! ...wait...omg... are those real elements? ARGH! CHEMISTRY!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[AnyoneEB]

Well, Praseodymium is Carl Sagan's favorite element. He said so in a Cosmos ep.

[KDR_11k]

Well, yes, except Ytterbium is Yb, not Y. And you can't tell me you don't know plumbum?

[Wackman]

Plumbum is Mario's speciality.

[thejeek]

If you like elements then check this mad song out.

[KDR_11k]

Plumbum is Mario's speciality.

As in "If you-a don't pay, Luigi here will pump you full-a plumbum, capiche?"