Author Topic: Is pointer sensitivity a technical limitation? (Read 7668 times)

Kairon · « **on:** May 15, 2006, 08:50:32 AM »

The latest theory on how the Wiimote's pointer functionality (i.e. how it specifies exactly where on the screen it points at) works is through a combination of its ability to know its tilt-orientation and by reading IR signals from the sensor bar to determine its distance from the display.

This dependence on reading IR signals for distance implies to me that the controller's sensitivity is something more hardcoded into the technology that CANNOT be significantly adjusted via software sliders.

The reason I think this is because the Wiimote can only function as a pointer or cursor as long as it's forward pointing and can detect the sensor bar IR signals. This means that it has a specific cone of "vision" for this functionality. With this specific cone of sensor bar reading functionality, this implies that you cannot make large movements outside of that cone and have the system detect that. In otherwords, you have a strict limit as to the extent of the controller's world. You cannot make a larger movement and have it translate to a small movement simply because that larger movement takes the Wiimote outside of its functional range. No sensitivity slider can change that, it's a physical and technical limitation.

This also goes back to some recent Will Wright's comments:

Quote
What I don’t like is that the way the Wii controller works depends a lot on how close you are to your TV. If you are five feet away it feels one way. If you are 10 feet away, it feels completely different.

Sensitivity isn't something that grows out of software, but instead as a "direct pointer device" the wiimote simply can't escape a certain cone of IR vision and therefore has a maximum range, setting a maximum on pointed cursor range and implying a naturally high senstitivty, which only gets higher the further away from the sensor bar you are.

So when you see games that are criticized for having too high sensitivity, I'm hesitant to put much stock in "they can adjust the sensitivity" comments. If these are technical limitations, a software slider isn't the answer. A more comfortable cone of IR vision is... could that possibly be achieved by moving the sensor bar closer to you?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

mantidor · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2006, 09:14:07 AM »

If its really IR (has there been confirmation? most likely it hasnt) The IR cone you mention only matters when you are pointing, and as long as it can cover the screen completly there shouldnt be any problems, doing a wide movement like Red Steel's sword slashing has nothing to do with the pointing device.

The Omen · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2006, 09:26:55 AM »

Everything I've seen and heard, and I have actually seen some Wii interaction live, makes me think this worry is completely baseless. I have seen sensitivity be adjusted to better fit certain situations in Madden, and I know it can be done. The sliders that will be in game settings will adjust the sensitivity within a set parameter which have been preprogrammed. In other words, the sensitivity is set while the game is being tweaked in late beta. The parameters set enable a very wide range of disparity within personal settings. This is what I have been told, and nobody who has been handling the Wii much more extensively than I has brought up any concern in regards to the sensitivity, or horizontal range, being affected by distance.

Of course, I didn't work with the Wii on a regular basis since that's done at another development house now. But I am in contact with people that do. So while it's possible I don't know the day to day tweaking, I feel I have at least a moderate level of insight to provide.

Crimm · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2006, 09:43:41 AM »

You know, I'd like to see a sensitivity setting in the wii-mote. If the story about the unit being "you" by storing your personal settings in each unit is true, it would be great to calibrate it once and never have to again.

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2006, 10:55:46 AM »

I suspect that at its most basic level, the pointer bit of the revolution controller works like an improved version of the LCD TopGun. Some clever use of the motion/tilt sensor could help correct aim, too. I don't think it tries to figure out how far it is from the screen based on the IR signal. It should be extremely sensitive, as you can tell by how jittery the cursors are in the Duck Hunt video. The good news is that you can reduce that jitter by averaging out the inputs, which allows for a scalable tradeoff of precision vs. smoothness. That won't affect the sensitivity of where you're pointing, though. That's an absolute location on the TV screen at any given moment. I suspect they're doing something slightly different for Red Steel and MP3, though, because your character's gun hand would be able to jump around the screen disconcertingly fast if it simply kept it pointing where you were aiming. This may relate to the "expert mode" some have mentioned.

There are technical limitations. Nintendo claims a 5 m range for the pointing functionality. The size of the TV is also limited by the controller's viewing angle, which hasn't been released yet. If my math is any good, at 5 meters back, assuming the angle of view is 30 degrees (going by Kairon's earlier post about the comments of a developer at E3), the maximum screen size would be 121" (diagonal) 16:9 widescreen. That beats the largest screen anyone I know owns by a wide margin (about two feet), and assumes a viewing angle that seems on the conservative side.

Avinash_Tyagi · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2006, 11:01:30 AM »

Its sounds more like a coding issue, when PGC upped the sensitivity on the MP3 game by chaning the game settings, the game functioned much better in their opinion

trip1eX · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2006, 11:42:15 AM »

As I read on PGC's front page, it's entirely possible to adjust sensitivity in software. The Metroid Prime demo had such an adjustment which was user selectable.

Dirk Temporo · « **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2006, 01:10:59 PM »

First and foremost, somebody tell me why, for the games that require you to move a cursor on screen, there isn't a goddamn calibration.

Jensen · « **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2006, 02:40:46 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
If its really IR (has there been confirmation? most likely it hasnt)

Here is a picture of the IR Bar taken with a camera with a weak IR filter.

And a second picture, with less IR showing.

Renny · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2006, 08:23:37 AM »

A couple more pictures: LED bar with MP3; close-up of LED bar.

Source: rllmuk

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2006, 11:35:32 AM »

HEY IT'S GOT COLORS

mantidor · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2006, 11:45:11 AM »

IR really presents the problem of line of sight. Its minor, and if you are not getting line of sight most of the times you arent seeing the game anyway, but is still something that concerns me. All an annoying brother needs to do in order to ruin your game is put black tape in the sensor bar.

ShyGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2006, 11:46:51 AM »

You know, Will Wright confirmed in an interview something I was suspicous of.

Quote
"What I don't like is that the way the Wii controller works depends a lot on how close you are to your TV. If you are five feet away it feels one way. If you are 10 feet away, it feels completely different."

I measured my distance from TV to couch and it was a little over 9 feet. I should be okay.

Requiem · « **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2006, 11:52:47 AM »

Why the hell wouldn't it feel different?

I mean, take duck hunt for the NES for instance. When close up your going to have to make wider, more brash movements to conpensate for how close you are. From far away, it'll take smaller more precise movements to complete the task. It's the same thing if you were hunting a real duck!

So I don't see why there is any room for you to complain....or even Will Wright.

ShyGuy · « **Reply #14 on:** May 16, 2006, 12:00:39 PM »

Easy there Boondocks, I wasn't complaining.

I just think this goes a long way in explaining why some people had a bad experience with the Wii controls at e3. They were too close to the IR/bluetooth sensor thing.

SgtShiversBen · « **Reply #15 on:** May 16, 2006, 12:01:19 PM »

I don't think those are LEDs on the IR bar. I think those are just the booth lights giving the effect of LEDs. On some of my pictures I got the same thing and I don't think they're on there.

But then again, after looking at one of my pixies I noticed that there are six [three on the left and right] lights showing. Secrets?!!?

trip1eX · « **Reply #16 on:** May 16, 2006, 12:01:51 PM »

I usually play my games from the same distance away as it is now. I don't think it will be a problem at all.

IF I switch to my other TV in another room it might take some adjustmenting ( or adjusting

) to.

IT's still early and folks have just got a taste of Wii.

mantidor · « **Reply #17 on:** May 16, 2006, 01:47:46 PM »

Infrared is invisible, Ben, without a proper filter you cant capture it on camera. Those photos didnt even made a good job there to show it though. Theres really one simple test, cover the pointing device with your hand, if it doesnt work, then its IR, did anyone do that at the show floor?

Requiem · « **Reply #18 on:** May 16, 2006, 03:14:31 PM »

I stand by my hypothesis that the IR on the Wiimote is only used to turn the Wii on and off. That is all.

I also stand by my other hypothesis that the bar uses technology similar to a cordless phone (ghz) and uses that to ping the controller.

Kairon · « **Reply #19 on:** May 16, 2006, 03:16:29 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Requiem
I stand by my hypothesis that the IR on the Wiimote is only used to turn the Wii on and off. That is all.

I also stand by my other hypothesis that the bar uses technology similar to a cordless phone (ghz) and uses that to ping the controller.

So, if I have this down right... you're standing BETWEEN your hypotheses?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

AnyoneEB · « **Reply #20 on:** May 16, 2006, 03:22:00 PM »

Kairon: Hmm? He said that he thinks the Wiimote has IR, but only uses RF for actual gameplay, which would make sense and probably work best.

Kairon · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2006, 03:25:15 PM »

I fail at humor.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Renny · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2006, 03:52:54 PM »

It definitely uses IR for the pointing functionality. News thread here.

Requiem · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2006, 04:28:19 PM »

Where in that entire post does it is "IR"?

You fail...

Renny · « **Reply #24 on:** May 16, 2006, 08:02:21 PM »

It uses a CMOS sensor (aka, a webcam). It has Multiple-Object Tracking™ techonology (ie, those 8 LEDs). It has been stated multiple times that the pointing functionality works within a limited distance and range of movement, which is to say that you must be relatively close to the LED bar and you can't point beyond the screen's perimeter. It clearly has a dependence on proximity and line-of-sight.

News:

Author Topic: Is pointer sensitivity a technical limitation? (Read 7668 times)